A+J=T v.5

[Chinoiserie]

 

My reticence lies in the fact Tywin/Tyrion is THE father/son Shakespearean tragedy we are exposed to.  Tywin's loathing of Tyrion is entirely derived from that fact the dwarf is a reflection of everything he hates about himself.  From his whoring to his 'low cunning' to his begrudging dutifulness to his antipathy towards those he never can seem to please, Tyrion is the Dorian Gray mirror image of Tywin.  Couple all of that with the fact Tyrion is laughed at throughout his life, then the story of Tywin and Tyrion being capped by the latter killing the former after strangling their mutual paramour is just about the only major thread Martin has managed to complete.  Subsequently, complicating such a relationship with Tywin's knowledge of Aerys/Joanna intrigue does cheapen it.  And that, my friends, is entirely objective.

 

Tyrion/Tywin dynamic is a Shakeperian tragedy when we view it from Tyrion's point of view so we are led to believe that Tywin's loathing in Tyrion is rooted with his disappointment with Tyrion's appearance and with the facts we know of Tywin we could see this as self-loathing. However GRRM uses unreliable narrators. If we were to see the dynamic from Tywin's point of view we might have a different understanding of the events, and this might be more compelling, it is hardly objective to say that a man raising the son of his beloved wife and his former best friend (or maybe even be sure of this) and recreating the abusive relationship he had with his former best friend by abusing his adoptive son as revenge is horrible material. It is certainly more original than a abusive and disappointed father storyline. We even have another case of it in asoiaf with Sam and Randyll (who have not been together so far in the series but very well could be in the next book). Tyrion's storyline would also open to many more possibilities, especially character development wise. And Tyrion is a mirror image of Tywin regardless, but he is not a copy of him and their similarities come from Tyrion trying to act like his father to gain his approval. For Tyrion to truly change and not  continue o Tywin's path it would be important for him to realize this.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

Since Blackfyre>Blackfire brought it up, I want to object to the notion the AJT theory cheapens the Tywin/Tyrion relationship can easily be dismissed.  The common objections are such a stance is subjective, or similarly Ned/Jon's relationship won't be damaged by an analogous revelation.  While valid, these are rather facile arguments.  My problem with AJT cheapening Tywin/Tyrion actually has nothing to do with who Tyrion's biological father is, but rather the idea that Tywin knew or suspected Aerys is Tyrion's father.  While this is not a prerequisite for the theory, it is an important facet that informs a significant portion of the evidence.

 

My reticence lies in the fact Tywin/Tyrion is THE father/son Shakespearean tragedy we are exposed to.  Tywin's loathing of Tyrion is entirely derived from that fact the dwarf is a reflection of everything he hates about himself.  From his whoring to his 'low cunning' to his begrudging dutifulness to his antipathy towards those he never can seem to please, Tyrion is the Dorian Gray mirror image of Tywin.  Couple all of that with the fact Tyrion is laughed at throughout his life, then the story of Tywin and Tyrion being capped by the latter killing the former after strangling their mutual paramour is just about the only major thread Martin has managed to complete.  Subsequently, complicating such a relationship with Tywin's knowledge of Aerys/Joanna intrigue does cheapen it.  And that, my friends, is entirely objective.

well said.

 

For supporters: what does Tyrion being a secret Targ ADD to his character arc? I get the impression that for most people it comes down to: If he's a Targ he can ride a dragon and that would so cool!

To which I argue that Tyrion riding a dragon ALSO cheapens his character arc. He's a guy who gets by with wits and cunning and courage, he's the perfect example of the everyman who doesn't have power or magic but still manages to influence powerful people and historic events. And GRRM is going to just put him on a dragon and have him go burn people? Doesn't fit his character arc at all and makes everything Tyrion has experienced kind of pointless.

 

So What does Tyrion being a Targ add to his character?

[UnmaskedLurker]

well said.

 

For supporters: what does Tyrion being a secret Targ ADD to his character arc? I get the impression that for most people it comes down to: If he's a Targ he can ride a dragon and that would so cool!

To which I argue that Tyrion riding a dragon ALSO cheapens his character arc. He's a guy who gets by with wits and cunning and courage, he's the perfect example of the everyman who doesn't have power or magic but still manages to influence powerful people and historic events. And GRRM is going to just put him on a dragon and have him go burn people? Doesn't fit his character arc at all and makes everything Tyrion has experienced kind of pointless.

 

So What does Tyrion being a Targ add to his character?

I think the Tyrion character in some sense has gone as far as he can go -- he is miserable and see himself as completely down. He blames Tywin for everything and thinks he is entitled to CR. Finding out the he really is a Targ bastard takes his character in an entirely different direction and allows him to understand Tywin better and comes to terms with who Tyrion really is.

 

It also allows Tyrion to be one of the three heads of the dragon -- so he can form a familiar bond with Jon and Dany (as well as other things) which also takes his story arc in a new direction.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

UL,

A big part of Tyrions life, he has tried to be accepted by Tywin (by more people, but by Tywin in particular). If he finds out Tywin is not is father, wouldn't he become more lost in identity, rather than find it?

[UnmaskedLurker]

RT--

 

He cannot get that approval -- Tywin is dead -- so he cannot achieve the identity he wants as a Lannister. He can comes to terms with his reality -- and learning why Tywin behaved as he did could assist in that process. But more to the point I was trying to make, Tyrion can come to terms with his identity as a Targ bastard -- even if he never could have come to terms fully with his Lannister identity. It gives him a purpose and a new family.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I think something that a lot of people miss about Tyrion being a Targ bastard, especially when it comes to the Lannister side of things, is that Tyrion is still a Lannister (in name for one) because Joanna was a Lannister (Tywin's first cousin)

 

So all of those traits that Gemma says are Tywin's could also have been inherited from Joanna.

 

The dream he has about having two heads could easily symbolize his Targaryen self and his Lannister self

"That Night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as read as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jamie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping."

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

I think something that a lot of people miss about Tyrion being a Targ bastard, especially when it comes to the Lannister side of things, is that Tyrion is still a Lannister (in name for one) because Joanna was a Lannister (Tywin's first cousin)

 

So all of those traits that Gemma says are Tywin's could also have been inherited from Joanna.

 

The dream he has about having two heads could easily symbolize his Targaryen self and his Lannister self

"That Night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as read as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jamie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping."

that's a very good point. the symbolism of his targ head destroying his lannister head or vice versa. it represents a choice he has to make, and him being an actual targ makes it a more difficult choice: destroy his "true" house, where he might find acceptance, or destroy the house that raised him. that would be a good arc.

and it fits with grrm's quote about the only stories worth telling are the human heart in conflict with itself.

[Dofs]

Tyrion being most like Tywin out of Tywin's children while not being his child is ironic in a different manner. 

 

The irony would be the the "child" that is most like Tywin in terms of personality -- his "true" son -- is the one who is not really his biological son. That "twist" is definitely irony. It is not "more" ironic if the true son Tywin hates is most like him -- it is equally or MORE ironic that the son who not really his son is the most like him.

 

The irony you are talking about only works if Tywin himself believed that Tyrion was the most like him. And as he didn't, then what's the point of such irony?  Tywin certainly would not care about it, nobody from the characters would ,actually, except for Genna. It then becomes as ironic as, I dunno, Brienne being like Ned Stark despite not being his daughter. 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

 

 

The irony you are talking about only works if Tywin himself believed that Tyrion was the most like him. And as he didn't, then what's the point of such irony?  Tywin certainly would not care about it, nobody from the characters would ,actually, except for Genna. It then becomes as ironic as, I dunno, Brienne being like Ned Stark despite not being his daughter. 

No,

it would be ironic to Gemma and to the reader who has been presented with the information that Tyrion's Aunt thinks he is the "most like" Tywin.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

 

 

The irony you are talking about only works if Tywin himself believed that Tyrion was the most like him. And as he didn't, then what's the point of such irony?  Tywin certainly would not care about it, nobody from the characters would ,actually, except for Genna. It then becomes as ironic as, I dunno, Brienne being like Ned Stark despite not being his daughter. 

TYwin certainly did care about it.  As we have mentioned upthread.  After Gemma said to Tywin that Tyrion is 'you writ small', Tywin did not speak to his sister for 6 straight months out of anger.  Which makes perfect ironic sense. Tywin is upset because his sister, whom he loves and who knows Tywin as well as anyone alive, thinks that Tyrion, out of all 3 children, is the one who is most like Tywin.  Of course this makes Tywin furious, Tyrion loves whores, as does Tywin (even though that is a secret) and TYrion is not even his son like the twins are.  Tyrion is (most likely) the son of a man who Tywin was bff's with as a child but now loathes him more than anyone else in his life. Tyrion has been a thorn in Tywins foot his entire life, fro reasons that Tywin can share with absolutely no one, but here comes his sister to tell him what?  This dwarf, whore-loving bastard is the child thatyou raised who favors you the most, not the golden, perfect twins, but this fucking guy who is the son of your ex-best friend, oh and he killed your beloved wife when she had him. This situation is one of the greatest examples of irony in all 5 books!

[Lost Melnibonean]

No matter who his pa is, the little bugger's still a twisted little demon monkey. He's better off being a trueborn lion rather than a bastard.

[Weirdo]

well said.

 

For supporters: what does Tyrion being a secret Targ ADD to his character arc? I get the impression that for most people it comes down to: If he's a Targ he can ride a dragon and that would so cool!

To which I argue that Tyrion riding a dragon ALSO cheapens his character arc. He's a guy who gets by with wits and cunning and courage, he's the perfect example of the everyman who doesn't have power or magic but still manages to influence powerful people and historic events. And GRRM is going to just put him on a dragon and have him go burn people? Doesn't fit his character arc at all and makes everything Tyrion has experienced kind of pointless.

 

So What does Tyrion being a Targ add to his character?

Tyrion has already burned thousands, on the Blackwater. That was his scheme, and it turned the tide of the battle. Not only did he set the enemy's fleet alight, but with the chain across the river's mouth, he trapped them in the flames so they could all burn to death with no chance of escape. Tyrion is a killer, and fire, along with subterfuge, has been his chief weapon.

 

Being a Targ doesn't add to his character so much as acknowledge his character.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Tyrion has already burned thousands, on the Blackwater. That was his scheme, and it turned the tide of the battle. Not only did he set the enemy's fleet alight, but with the chain across the river's mouth, he trapped them in the flames so they could all burn to death with no chance of escape. Tyrion is a killer, and fire, along with subterfuge, has been his chief weapon.
 
Being a Targ doesn't add to his character so much as acknowledge his character.

Yeap. Twisted little demon monkey.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

 

The irony you are talking about only works if Tywin himself believed that Tyrion was the most like him. And as he didn't, then what's the point of such irony?  Tywin certainly would not care about it, nobody from the characters would ,actually, except for Genna. It then becomes as ironic as, I dunno, Brienne being like Ned Stark despite not being his daughter. 

While I agree basically with the responses given by KVT IV and SS, I would also add that irony is basically for the readers and not for the characters. Tywin is dead. It really does not matter whether Tywin would find or did find the situation ironic. The point is for the readers to understand the irony.

 

In addition, your argument you are making here can be said equally about the original point of yours that I was responding to. The original point YOU made was that somehow it is ironic that the son that Tywin despised is most like him. But again, if Tywin does not consider Tyrion to be the most like himself, why wouldn't your point about Tywin not believing Tyrion to be the most like him be an equal argument against the irony if Tyrion is the trueborn son of Tywin? It would still fail your "irony test" because Tywin would not consider Tyrion to be most like him -- thus no irony in the son being most like Tywin being the one he despised.

 

But again, I don't think you are correct that Tywin does not realize how similar he is to Tyrion, and more important, the irony is not measured by what Tywin understands -- it is measured by what the readers understand. And by the end, after the AJT reveal, readers will understand the irony.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

While I agree basically with the responses given by KVT IV and SS, I would also add that irony is basically for the readers and not for the characters. Tywin is dead. It really does not matter whether Tywin would find or did find the situation ironic. The point is for the readers to understand the irony.

 

In addition, your argument you are making here can be said equally about the original point of yours that I was responding to. The original point YOU made was that somehow it is ironic that the son that Tywin despised is most like him. But again, if Tywin does not consider Tyrion to be the most like himself, why wouldn't your point about Tywin not believing Tyrion to be the most like him be an equal argument against the irony if Tyrion is the trueborn son of Tywin? It would still fail your "irony test" because Tywin would not consider Tyrion to be most like him -- thus no irony in the son being most like Tywin being the one he despised.

 

But again, I don't think you are correct that Tywin does not realize how similar he is to Tyrion, and more important, the irony is not measured by what Tywin understands -- it is measured by what the readers understand. And by the end, after the AJT reveal, readers will understand the irony.

I would add that it would be Ironic that the son that is not actually his is the one that is most like him also works.

[DMC]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means!

 

It certainly is objective that it would change the way that readers would view the situation. Whether that change would be a change that "cheapens" the relationship or merely adds more complexity to the relationship is subjective. I agree with Weirdo that you are not using the word "objective" correctly. I simply do not agree that such a revelation would cheapen the relationship at all -- that judgment really is a personal opinion -- and thus inherently subjective rather than objective.

 

Yeah, not sure why I put that objective line at the end of my post.  I mean, I suppose that cheapening is objective, but only if you accept the (subjective) premise of the rest of the post.  Could have been trying to be facetious, or just drunk and provocative - honestly don't remember.  Still, I think the rest of the post is a good argument for why the 'cheapening' counterpoint is a valid criticism.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well ^^^ I think it is more important how Tyrion feels than how Tywin felt.. Like UL said, Twyin is dead, he can make no discoveries and has no more part to play.  Tyrion otoh is GRRM's favorite and will most likely live until the end.  He is haunted by what he did to his father, haunted during DwD, but he does not feel remorse and I really dont think he feels guilt, more like anger at Tywin that Tywin drove him so far that he had to shoot him with a crossbow.  And Tyrion still has zero idea why his father hated him so so much.  How could it possibly destroy his arc or cheapen it to at least find out later that there was some meaning and purpose behind Tywin's loathing of him since childhood? The only thing it will do is give Tyrion a little encouragement that it was not all his fault, it was Aerys Tywin hated so much.  In short, what is wrong with Tyrion finding out that it wasn't all his own fault, and it wasn't just the dwarf thing that made Tywin hate him so much?  Regardless of the reason TYwin treated him like shit, from Tyrion's POV all that matters is that he was treated like shit, so Tywin brought about his own death from tormenting Tyrion so long.  If Tyrion had known all along that he was a bastard Tywin would still have treated him terribly, so either way their paths take them to the privy with the crossbow, and Tyrion still would have pulled the trigger.

[Mithras]

- References to Tyrion having cast the shadow of a king.

 

"I know," Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

 

He favored Jon with a rueful grin. " Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear a cross the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

 

Jon is the king here. The foreshadowing belongs to Jon. It has nothing to do with Tyrion.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

right. Just as Maester Aemon's recognition of Tyrion's greatness has nothing to with Tyrion, either, no?

 

Interpreting the obvious fact that Jon - a normally growing boy - is taller than the dwarf Tyrion as foreshadowing is silly, too. Tyrion isn't a dwarf in this series so that Jon Snow can look and feel tall.

[Mithras]

Lord Varys,

 

This is only one of many cases where Jon is referred to as a king in a subtle way. Hate Jon all you like but the evidence is there. It is all about Jon.