So Who is Actually Dead? [All Spoilers]

[Dragon_Rider]

What is "Dead"?

Hahahaha. Yes. This is a serious question in the show and the books!

Because death is not really permanent in some cases. Dead crows/wildlings get reanimated by White Walkers. Red priests bring other people back to life. Heretical "maesters" using some alchemy/science bring others back to life. etc.

The only ones we can really say are dead based on the finale are Meryn Trant and Myrcella.

[[Deleted]]

Olly is dead. Dead to me, dead to the showrunners, to Kit Harrington (maybe), and all the fans. George will have to write him in somehow just to kill him.

I'd love to see that scene written in tWoW:

Alliser Thorne surveyed the group of new recruits. One in particular stood out to him: A young boy, no more than 10 or 11, staring straight ahead with a perpetual scowl on his face. Well, what have we here? Alliser thought to himself. He walked towards the boy. As he approached, the boy's gaze shifted to meet his eyes. His scowl deepened. Did he eat some bad lemoncakes? Alliser wondered to himself.

"You there, boy.", Alliser said.

The boy said nothing, but continued to stare in sullen silence.

"Boy, do you have a name?" Alliser tried again.

The boy stared at him. Alliser wondered if the boy was mute. He was about to ask just that when the lad spoke:

"Olly. My name's Olly."

That's a stupid name. But Alliser said "How old are you Olly?"

"Ten."

Too young. "Well, Olly, I must say, you....."

Suddenly Alliser heard something large moving swiftly through the snow toward them. He looked to his right to see a mass of white hair moving impossibly quickly right at him. The two red eyes burned like the fire of the seven Hells.

Jon Snow's bloody wolf. Alliser stumbled backward, reaching for his sword....

Only to watch as the massive white wolf abruptly changed course and lunged straight at the boy named Olly.

The new recuits yelled and scattered as Ghost lept upward, barreling into Olly and knocking the boy onto his back. Olly was screaming and desperately trying to shield his face as the wolf tore at his soft flesh with teeth and claws like razors.

Thorne stood frozen in place. He could barely process what he was seeing.

"Get him off! GET HIM OFF! Help me, please!" The boy cried desperately. Ghost sank his teeth into the shredded, bloody ruin of Ollys right arm, clamped down hard, and gave a violent yank. Alliser heard bone break and muscle tear as a fountain of red blood spurted onto the snow from the bloody stump where Olly's arm used to be. Olly shrieked with pain.

"He'll kill me! Oh, Gods, HELP!"

Alliser tore his eyes away from the carnage and looked around. All around him, Brothers of the Night's Watch and new recruits alike stood still as statues, watching Ghost savage Olly.

"Help! Help! HELP!" The last word seemed to end abruptly. Alliser looked back and saw Ghost had Olly by the throat. The wolf had lifted Olly halfway off the ground. The boy's head hung limply, as his good arm and bloody stump feebly struck at the wolf's jaws.

The Ghost violently shook Olly the way a dog might shake a rabbit it had just caught.

Suddenly the snows all around Ghost were stained bright red. Olly's body fell limply to the ground. Alliser watched it unfold in slow motion, and saw the snows were becoming redder still. How is that happening?

Somewhere, as if from far away, he heard someone shout out "He bit the lad's head clean off!"

Alliser, not quite understanding why, looked down at his feet.

Somehow, Olly's head had left his body when Ghost had shook him and landed right in front of Thorne. Those dark eyes, which had been so sullen and scowling just minutes before, we now open in an eternal stare at nothing. The mouth hung slackly open, as though Olly had just been stunned by some news. The neck was a ragged mess of bloody flesh.

Alliser suddenly became aware of a sound that sounded much like a dog eating some leftover bones and mutton from the dinner table.

"Oh Gods, he's eating him!" Someone cried out.

Alliser looked back at Ghost. Olly's guts lay open for all to see, and Ghost had his muzzle buried deep in them, noisily chewing and lapping.

Suddenly, Grenn was by his side.

"Ser Alliser, should we do something?"

Thorne watched the wolf as it pulled it's head out of Olly's now empty belly, guts and gristle hanging messily around his jaws.

"No... No." Alliser said. "It's too late. Better the boy than one of us." He looked down at Olly's head still staring up at him. Alliser gave it a small kick and it rolled over to Ghost. Ghost stopped eating Olly's other arm briefly to curiously consider the head, then he went back to his bloody meal.

"Back away, everyone." Alliser said in a whisper that somehow carried around the yard. Alliser looked at them. Some of the men had gone as white as the snow they stood on. A few looked like they might soon part ways with their breakfast. But one by one, they began to melt away from the spectacle of gore in the middle of the yard.

Ghost was now tugging at the bloodly stump of Olly's neck.

"Let's go." Alliser said to Grenn. He turned his back and slowly walked away. He heard Grenn follow behind him.

And a little further still behind him, he heard Ghost continuing to eat what was left of the boy who had been called Olly.

[ummester]

Stannis - Probably not, now, more than ever, I think he might actually be Azor Ahai.

Sansa & Reek / Theon - I hope so, but probably not.

Myrcella - Fuck I really hope so, but likely not.

Jon - Yep, but he'll probably be back, as unJon, either raised by Mel, the Nights king, or a combination.

Ser Meryn Trant? ;) - Yep, no more trips to Bali Bravos for him :D

[Nic.]

Trant is the only one i'm sure is dead. Myrcella is the next. As for Jon yeah he's technically dead but since he'll be revived he's in a category of his own. As for Stannis, he's probably just locked up at this point.

[doghouse]

Stannis - Dead

Sansa & Reek / Theon - Alive and limping

Myrcella - Dead

Jon - Dead but soon to be alive

Ser Meryn Trant? - Most definitely deader than dead

[Claire of House Thorpe]

Dead:

1. Myrcella

2. Myranda

3. Trant

Probably not dead:

1. Jon

2. Stannis

3. Sansa

4. Theon

[MarieAntoinette]

Mrycella, Myranda and Trant are dead. Jon is dead, but will be back in some form. I'm quite sure that Sansa and Theon are both alive. Stannis is probably dead, depends on the storyline next season.

[sciteacher]

They didn't show them crash on the ground (like people who "aim for the bushes" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q86Rn4jETVk).

But they didn't show anything that looked like the jump was survivable. No snow drifts to cushion the fall.

Do you suppose Pod is comming just in time to catch them with a safety net?

Else: how do you think a badly injured Sansa would escape the Bolton hunting party?

Just starting the turbo on her brand new electric wheelchair? :cheers:

If you look at the :48 sec mark on this video, you can see a substantial snow drift on the right side of the castle wall. (Our right).

The first 50 seconds show lots of views of Winterfell. Large snow drifts can stick around for weeks/months. In the blizzard of 1978, some of the 20-30 foot drifts that piled up in February didn't melt until May.

The outer wall at Winterfell is 80 ft, that drift looks to be 30-40 ft. Given a choice between risking the jump and facing Ramsey after he finds Myranda dead, I know I'd try the jump.

[Ser Patroclo]

Why shouldn't one reason about what happened on a tv show in terms of what was shown on screen? If the jump didn't look survivable - I wouldn't expect them to survive. They even showed that it was really high, and that there were NO snow drifts. And also the story they were telling (weather change due to Shereen burning) implied that most of the snow is gone.

It's bad television eighter way. If they are dead, it's bad for the long term story and future episodes. If they survive it is bad for the episode which shows them in a situation that they shouldn't survive.

Because many things in the show don't make any sense at all, it's much more difficult to shoot realistic frame sequences than writing down realistic books.. because writing does not cost much more and it is easy to go back and change errors, while in a TV show you have to record again the scene.

TV always requires suspension of disbelief one way or another, if you are rationale enough you can always find things that make no sense on their own or sequentially.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I'll believe both Theon and Sansa survived their jump when I see it. I wouldn't be surprised to learn in 6x01 that at least one of them died in the fall, particularly since Book Theon has a plotline--winding up in Stannis' camp and set to be executed by him--that is no longer possible in the show, what with TV Stannis being dead and his forces being obliterated and all.

Not necessarily. They could be escaping and of course Ramsay will go after them. My guess is that either they run into the wildings and are both taken to Jon at CB or Theon will save Sansa and divert Ramsay resulting in his own death.

[Lord Freypie]

I'd say as a general rule dead characters in the show have short life expectancy in the books, with one likely exception and one I'm not certain about.

The way D&D adapt things is based on some checklist method, they keep the plot points important to the main narrative, even if they completely botch context and characterization.

So...

- I judge highly improbable D&D would have invented Stannis losing at Winterfell if he wasn't going to. Of course in the books he'll look like he has a serious chance of winning (the pink letter give a hint it won't be a that easy Bolton victory, speaking about 7 days of battle), instead of appearing as a complete loser, and he also won't burn his daughter himself, she's at fucking Castle Black and wormholes only exist in show!Westeros. Mel and Selyse likely will to try to revive him / awake stone dragons to avenge him, after hearing about his death and burn Shireen for that.

- Sansa will very probably survive her fall, as she'll probably be around for the two last books. I'm not sure for Theon if he is to be sacrificed by Stannis soon in the books he's likely to be already show!dead. But probably he's to be spared or saved and flee with Asha, and so will survive in show too.

- Barristan will die early in twow, in the battle of Mereen, they just rushed his death to make place for Tyrion.

- Hizdahr won't survive far longer.

- Myrcella is set to die in the books, main difference is she'll likely die after Tommen and after being crowned.

- Meryn Trant is so unimportant, there's some small chance he'll survive for a whole book, still his destiny is to die, and Arya look like a good potential killer.

- Jon is of course the likely exception. Direwolves require CGI and don't speak. If Martin made the choice to make him survive in ghost and tell wolf chapters before allowing him to return to an human body, the show may have decided it wouldn't be adapted to tv medium. And if he's resurrected in the books that it was "too magical" (do they know they are adapting a fantasy serie ?). I'd say he'll probably won't stay hopelessly dead in the books (may be un, or warging), but may in the show. Likely if he is to be so endgame important it's impossible to avoid reviving him, which is possible, he'll be reintroduced in season 7 (eventually after a recast, so may be true Kit Harrington really left for good). My final pronostic being : in books we"ll see spend time in Ghost, then he'll find a new human body / be revived, in show he'll appear completely dead for one season at least, only being revived if he's completely key to the ending.

[Fearodh]

Stannis - I think he's dead. Mainly because he has NOTHING left. Daughter dead, wife dead, army destroyed, his witch completely wrong about her predictions. Can't imagine that they would create another Reek out of him

Sansa & Reek - I agree with the majority, they live

Myrcella - I would have liked to see more here. We will probably see Trystane next season, but at the pivotal moment his beloved dies he is offscreen? Joffrey they showed his last breath. But I think she is dead.

Jon - Feeling it is rly weird how strongly they say he is not coming back. But I don't buy it, he will play a role.

[Rise Above]

They're all dead except for Sansa and Reek. If I'm wrong I'll sever a limb when S6 airs.

[GenericNPC]

Stannis - I think he's dead. Mainly because he has NOTHING left. Daughter dead, wife dead, army destroyed, his witch completely wrong about her predictions. Can't imagine that they would create another Reek out of him

I think he is dead. Though if he isn't he could probably gather up the Wildlings regroup for a second attempt. I don't see what else all the Wildlings could be used for unless they fall into the void that is the Riverlands.

[Ser Patroclo]

- I judge highly improbable D&D would have invented Stannis losing at Winterfell if he wasn't going to. Of course in the books he'll look like he has a serious chance of winning (the pink letter give a hint it won't be a that easy Bolton victory, speaking about 7 days of battle), instead of appearing as a complete loser, and he also won't burn his daughter himself, she's at fucking Castle Black and wormholes only exist in show!Westeros. Mel and Selyse likely will to try to revive him / awake stone dragons to avenge him, after hearing about his death and burn Shireen for that.

...

- Jon is of course the likely exception. Direwolves require CGI and don't speak. If Martin made the choice to make him survive in ghost and tell wolf chapters before allowing him to return to an human body, the show may have decided it wouldn't be adapted to tv medium. And if he's resurrected in the books that it was "too magical" (do they know they are adapting a fantasy serie ?). I'd say he'll probably won't stay hopelessly dead in the books (may be un, or warging), but may in the show. Likely if he is to be so endgame important it's impossible to avoid reviving him, which is possible, he'll be reintroduced in season 7 (eventually after a recast, so may be true Kit Harrington really left for good). My final pronostic being : in books we"ll see spend time in Ghost, then he'll find a new human body / be revived, in show he'll appear completely dead for one season at least, only being revived if he's completely key to the ending.

1. I was hoping for Manderly to wipe out the Frey army, provide food to Stannis's army and disguises so that they can all come back to Winterfell together and after they are in they can storm the Castle together. Then Stannis could die for whatever reason, maybe while trying going more south than that. Perhaps in the show they plan for the North rally with Sansa when she is found outside the castle, or perhaps neither in the show nor in the books the North will put a Stark in Winterfell any time soon.

2. In an interview they said that Jon was going to have a Direwolf warging experience in season 6, so obviously they will show something.. The problem is without Jon eyes turning white at the end of season 5, there is absolutely no clue that Jon is in the direwolf now. Someone needs to recognize him being in the Direwolf, perhaps we will hear Bran talking through Ghost's head? I don't know. But what can he accomplish as a wolf? If he goes north of the wall to show us the WW, then he puts a magical barrier among him and his body.. and the outcome of the kiss of fire might be very bad if he is unable to go back into his body. Perhaps we will see the WW invade the Wall through his eyes when the night watch comes, him seeing wildlings saving the life of olly and we will hear olly repent for his own actions loudly.. after witnessing the horror of the dead army.. That poor kid needs to be redeemed. But that also means that Jon Snow will stay dead for an entire season, and even though Ice preserves.. can he be resurrected after months? He would stink of death.

[Valar Morghulis Not Today]

Melisandre leaving Stannis's camp and returning to the wall makes me expect a Jon Snow resurrection, I think GRRM has hinted twice that he might not be dead dead and am expecting Jon's parentage to be revealed...

Reek and Sansa miraculously survived... I was expecting a lot more snow though...

Myrcella surprisingly dead, I guess to give the Dornish some plot next year since they seem to have ignored their book plots.

Stannis, I can't see why they would keep him alive (but I was expecting a book victory with the help of Northern Lords).

Myranda and Ser Meryn dead :)

The thing is, like most shows unless you actually see them die it's not confirmed (the book does this to an annoying extent!) Though I always find it a cheap trick particularly on TV. The thing with Ned's death is in Season One I always felt like they were sticking closer to the books and doing almost Point of View scenes, with Ned's beheading was from Arya's POV - and she didn't see it.

[JonSnowed]

OK speaking to an unsullied friend at work who has now starting to read the first book:

- No way Jon is dead he is coming back next season and it's handy Mel turns up just before.

- Mycella is dead and he thinks Jamie is done for if he returns to Kings Landing now

- Dany is in for a world of pain and definitely dying next season.

- Stannis is still alive as they would have shown it on screen (I must say I thought he was dead but watching Gwendoline Christie on throne cast after has made me seriously doubt this)

Anyone want to start a thread on where we think Season 6 will go?

[Wouter]

Jon I believe will come back in some way, much as I expect it to happen in the books. Given reports about the actor not coming back, I assume his body did die.

Kit Harrington is still acting when giving out interviews about Jon's death. He can hardly say "yes I'll totally be back next season, but keep it a secret, okay". It seems that the showrunners have opted to go all out for the "everybody can and does get killed" thing. But it was also reported that Kit Harrington, among other principal actors, got a significant pay raise to appear in S6 and S7. And there is no doubt the character has a lot to do still.

This is simply the way GRRM has chosen to get Jon free of his NW vows, without damaging the integrity of the character. The manner of his resurrection (I suppose Jon may not need heat or food anymore, just like Melisandre) will also help to make him a superfighter against the Others.

As for Sansa and Theon, TV often isn't realistic. The plot requires their survival, just as Jeyne and Theon survived in the books.

[Stag_legion]

OK speaking to an unsullied friend at work who has now starting to read the first book:

- No way Jon is dead he is coming back next season and it's handy Mel turns up just before.

- Mycella is dead and he thinks Jamie is done for if he returns to Kings Landing now

- Dany is in for a world of pain and definitely dying next season.

- Stannis is still alive as they would have shown it on screen (I must say I thought he was dead but watching Gwendoline Christie on throne cast after has made me seriously doubt this)

Anyone want to start a thread on where we think Season 6 will go?

wait what? do you have the clip? what does she actually say?

[H.P.]

Stannis - I think he's dead. Mainly because he has NOTHING left. Daughter dead, wife dead, army destroyed, his witch completely wrong about her predictions. Can't imagine that they would create another Reek out of him

I don't think he has to turn into another Reek. He's with Brienne, and Brienne is one of the good guys.

Although I'd be very interested to see which route they would take with him. Likely a prisoner of Brienne, at least at first. Then maybe they'll fall in love or something.