Rant and Rave Without Repercussion 3 (Book Spoilers)

[Red Helm]

Aww I miss Myrcella I :( such a sweet, intelligent girl.

And yeah, I know that's why. I was just pointing out why that's the only option, since they didn't write him better or make him more faithful to Book!Loras.

Bahaha! I've only now turned my gaze to those words above your avatar.

But D&D are pathetic, so no doubt they make threats and become petty as oppose to hearing their actors out. The OU thing exemplified this with it only exacerbating their desire to kill Selmy.

[The Northern Scholar]

I don't get the same vibe from Maise, honestly. I know she has said some stuff about book readers, but if you look at her entire comment in full context, it's not that bad.

Maybe. I should re-read her comments about book readers, but on first glance it was pretty bad. I'm also taking into consideration some of her other (general) comments that come across as typical teenage stuff. Which is why I really SHOULD give her some slack.

From the Vox Article Cas posted:

• David Benioff and D. B. Weiss have become increasingly reliant on delivering shocking "moments," but are failing to properly set them up or explore their aftermaths.

This, I think, perfectly describes why I was so underwhelmed by the finale's most shocking moment of all: the killing of Jon Snow.

Jon Snow really does break his oaths to the Night's Watch, which makes the attack on him far more justifiable.

Jon has resolved to attack Westeros with his own wildling army. He has betrayed his oath, for his own personal reasons. He couldn't leave his family ties behind for the greater good, like he swore to. (ed: would it really have been hard to have this happen rather than the LAME AS SHIT Jon/Sam scene?)

it annoys me when the show keeps a shocking moment but strips it of its essence and meaning for the characters involved. Game of Thrones did that here, and what ended up on screen rang hollow.

it seems the showrunners were too afraid to portray Jon as an oath-breaker. Instead, they wanted to keep him noble, a pure hero betrayed by black-hearted goons who simply couldn't see the big picture. (ed: another reason why Kit's interview annoyed me - he talked about how Jon should have been paying attention to the "smaller picture" like Olly and his needs, instead of only looking at the "bigger picture" and that was his downfall. BULLSHIT)

The result is that the show's Jon is a much less interesting character, and that his death scene is much less powerful.

I LOVE the fact that Jon's stabbed for breaking oaths and wanting to lead a wildling army on Winterfell. I LOVE that he makes the (questionable) decision to send Sam, Aemon, Gilly, and Mance's kid to Oldtown. I LOVE that he talks to Stannis about how to gain allegiance from the Northern Clans. He's leading. He makes bad decisions that ultimately end in FTW. But he's leading and he's actually trying to kill the boy. On the show, he's so much more passive outside of going to Hardhome which is just a chance for the show to have an "awesome battle" this season.

[kissdbyfire]

It was in AMA on his twitter recently, he said book Loras and show Loras are one and the same person and he doesn't understand all the fuss about show portrayal of his character.

But did he say anything different before? Did voice concerns, or mention the books?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Doubt she was frustrated. Her gushing over the e7 ending seems pretty natural and consistent with how air-headed she usually comes across as.

I'm not sure. She does have this problem of seeming air-headed, which is normal for a nineteen year old girl, but I can't, for the life of me, imagine an actor that would like to be five years crying over your TV. Enough is enough.

[The Lord of Cinder]

Ah, someone who gets it. Who doesn't think the book version was "too complicated" .....

A nice rant from Vox.

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/18/8800725/game-of-thrones-jon-snow-death-ruined

I really want to link this to an unsullied friend of mine, but I know he doesn't care enough to read it.

If anyone, after having read how FTW played out in the show and the book, concludes that the show did it better or was somehow justified in its stupidity, I will go full Liam Neeson. Trying to be as objective as possible, I just cannot see how anyone could think the show handled that scene well, considering how easy it would have been to at least somewhat recreate the scene from the book. But all they got was: "Night's Watch men are displeased with Jon, they stab him ... Olly? Olly! OLLLLYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!"

[Cas Stark]

Maybe. I should re-read her comments about book readers, but on first glance it was pretty bad. I'm also taking into consideration some of her other (general) comments that come across as typical teenage stuff. Which is why I really SHOULD give her some slack.

I LOVE the fact that Jon's stabbed for breaking oaths and wanting to lead a wildling army on Winterfell. I LOVE that he makes the (questionable) decision to send Sam, Aemon, Gilly, and Mance's kid to Oldtown. I LOVE that he talks to Stannis about how to gain allegiance from the Northern Clans. He's leading. He makes bad decisions that ultimately end in FTW. But he's leading and he's actually trying to kill the boy. On the show, he's so much more passive outside of going to Hardhome which is just a chance for the show to have an "awesome battle" this season.

LOL. I thought it was interesting, how he's trying to walk the line, keeps rationalizing and then gets the letter and says ah fuck it. I'm going to go get Arya, fuck it. Robb is dead, my brothers are dead, fuck this noise, I'm getting her and kill this muthafucka Ramsay Bolton. One too many pressures, one too many temptations on that oath cause love is the death of honor baby.

Much more interesting than for the taters, poor Olly was failed because he's what was important here.

[Airemyn]

Hooray I can finally post in this thread before it gets locked! 😄

I am done with the show, unless Grrm manages to get the next book out first and then I can laugh at this crap. I cannot bear the thought of finding out what happens next in the story through that monstrosity than the books. As someone who originally found this work through the show, I can't believe that I feel that way now but I do.

They have simply changed too much for no reason. Why did Sansa need to be raped? Why did Shireen need to be burned? Why was Myrcella killed by a character that doesn't believe in revenge? Hell, no main character in Dorne thinks like that in the books, so why force it in like that? There doesn't seem to be any logic to these decisions, and I can certainly list more examples.

I am just done. It's made me long for TWOW even more now.

[R4W13Y]

Maybe. I should re-read her comments about book readers, but on first glance it was pretty bad. I'm also taking into consideration some of her other (general) comments that come across as typical teenage stuff. Which is why I really SHOULD give her some slack.

I LOVE the fact that Jon's stabbed for breaking oaths and wanting to lead a wildling army on Winterfell. I LOVE that he makes the (questionable) decision to send Sam, Aemon, Gilly, and Mance's kid to Oldtown. I LOVE that he talks to Stannis about how to gain allegiance from the Northern Clans. He's leading. He makes bad decisions that ultimately end in FTW. But he's leading and he's actually trying to kill the boy. On the show, he's so much more passive outside of going to Hardhome which is just a chance for the show to have an "awesome battle" this season.

I agree about Maisie.

And Jon was even passive about Hardhome!! Tormund was like "you're coming with me" and he's like "eh, alright I guess".

Agree with all you've said :) Jon's ADWD arc is one of my favorites.

[Red Helm]

Hooray I can finally post in this thread before it gets locked!

I am done with the show, unless Grrm manages to get the next book out first and then I can laugh at this crap. I cannot bear the thought of finding out what happens next in the story through that monstrosity than the books. As someone who originally found this work through the show, I can't believe that I feel that way now but I do.

They have simply changed too much for no reason. Why did Sansa need to be raped? Why did Shireen need to be burned? Why was Myrcella killed by a character that doesn't believe in revenge? Hell, no main character in Dorne thinks like that in the books, so why force it in like that? There doesn't seem to be any logic to these decisions, and I can certainly list more examples.

I am just done. It's made me long for TWOW even more now.

Same. It is good to see another convert. You have stepped into the light brother, and now you must speak the Book Reading Snob oath. Sworn for life to spit on D&D, their apologia and defend the one true talent of ASoIaF. Speak the words, and arise as one of us.

[Bosfan]

But did he say anything different before? Did voice concerns, or mention the books?

Yes, he said how he would portray Loras differently, like a true warrior, there was a video on youtube about that but I can't find it (where he waves plastic sword).

[Alayne's Shadow.]

LOL. I thought it was interesting, how he's trying to walk the line, keeps rationalizing and then gets the letter and says ah fuck it. I'm going to go get Arya, fuck it. Robb is dead, my brothers are dead, fuck this noise, I'm getting her and kill this muthafucka Ramsay Bolton. One too many pressures, one too many temptations on that oath cause love is the death of honor baby.

Exactly. Jon's arc is completed that moment, and in many ways, it speaks right to Jon's character that he chooses to break his vows. It's his moment. It's Jon's equivalent to the Daznak's Pit.

[Red Helm]

I agree about Maisie.

And Jon was even passive about Hardhome!! Tormund was like "you're coming with me" and he's like "eh, alright I guess".

Agree with all you've said :) Jon's ADWD arc is one of my favorites.

Why? It is up there as my favorities too but as far as ADwD discussions I can't find much on it, with more focus on Dany, Tyrion, etc. so I'm curious for your reasoning as to why.

[The Lord of Cinder]

From the Vox Article Cas posted:

• David Benioff and D. B. Weiss have become increasingly reliant on delivering shocking "moments," but are failing to properly set them up or explore their aftermaths.

This, I think, perfectly describes why I was so underwhelmed by the finale's most shocking moment of all: the killing of Jon Snow.

Jon Snow really does break his oaths to the Night's Watch, which makes the attack on him far more justifiable.

Jon has resolved to attack Westeros with his own wildling army. He has betrayed his oath, for his own personal reasons. He couldn't leave his family ties behind for the greater good, like he swore to. (ed: would it really have been hard to have this happen rather than the LAME AS SHIT Jon/Sam scene?)

it annoys me when the show keeps a shocking moment but strips it of its essence and meaning for the characters involved. Game of Thrones did that here, and what ended up on screen rang hollow.

it seems the showrunners were too afraid to portray Jon as an oath-breaker. Instead, they wanted to keep him noble, a pure hero betrayed by black-hearted goons who simply couldn't see the big picture. (ed: another reason why Kit's interview annoyed me - he talked about how Jon should have been paying attention to the "smaller picture" like Olly and his needs, instead of only looking at the "bigger picture" and that was his downfall. BULLSHIT)

The result is that the show's Jon is a much less interesting character, and that his death scene is much less powerful.

I shall print out this article, frame it and hang it on the wall, and every time someone starts talking about GoT, I shall gaze at it with squinted eyes while frowning and grinding my teeth as the one true Stannis always does.

[Red Helm]

I shall print out this article, frame it and hang it on the wall, and every time someone starts talking about GoT, I shall gaze at it with squinted eyes while frowning and gritting my teeth as the one true Stannis always does.

[gritting intensifies]

[The Northern Scholar]

I agree about Maisie.

And Jon was even passive about Hardhome!! Tormund was like "you're coming with me" and he's like "eh, alright I guess".

Agree with all you've said :) Jon's ADWD arc is one of my favorites.

Jon's ADWD stuff is my favorite of everything in ASOIAF followed only by Bran. That probably explains why I hate the show so much; because I'm most interested in all the stuff at the Wall and beyond and the show seems to only care for the Lannisters and the Game of Thrones. It also explains why I'm so irrationally invested in Kit's interview and Jon's fate on the show and books.

[R4W13Y]

Bahaha! I've only now turned my gaze to those words above your avatar.

But D&D are pathetic, so no doubt they make threats and become petty as oppose to hearing their actors out. The OU thing exemplified this with it only exacerbating their desire to kill Selmy.

Haha the words describe me perfectly :hat:

I really want to link this to an unsullied friend of mine, but I know he doesn't care enough to read it.

If anyone, after having read how FTW played out in the show and the book, concludes that the show did it better or was somehow justified in its stupidity, I will go full Liam Neeson. Trying to be as objective as possible, I just cannot see how anyone could think the show handled that scene well, considering how easy it would have been to at least somewhat recreate the scene from the book. But all they got was: "Night's Watch men are displeased with Jon, they stab him ... Olly? Olly! OLLLLYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!"

:bowdown:

I also have the same issue with my shownly friends. I try to give them really good articles or tumblr posts (hello Cheb and Julia) and they have no interest and I can tell I'm annoying them :lol: :blushing:

Why? It is up there as my favorities too but as far as ADwD discussions I can't find much on it, with more focus on Dany, Tyrion, etc. so I'm curious for your reasoning as to why.

Well I'm biased since Jon and Dany are my favorite characters. I love how their arcs are paralleled (making small concessions and sacrifices that go against yourself/your vows/your identity that get increasingly bigger and harder to do, before you eventually snap and do something that changes the trajectory of your story for good [Jon: response to the Pink Letter to personally fight Ramsay and Dany: ripping off her tokar and saving Drogon from the fighting pits). I think it's just a great story that says so much about Jon and who he is and what he values. I think it's really powerful. And I love how it ended too.

[Lord Freypie]

Generalized Rant:

I am SICK of hearing that such and such has to exist to 'introduce' some concept. Like we had to have Bronn poisoned to 'introduce' the idea to prep us for Myrcella. Excuse me. The audience for the show are humans, not aliens. We are all familiar with FUCKING POISON. We don't need an intro complete with striptease. For that matter, we don't need a poison that has to have an antidote we can have plain old poison. None of that was any kind of necessary set up to kill Myrcella with poison.

I think you haven't understood : the strip tease scene wasn't to introduce the poison, it was the other way around.

[R4W13Y]

Exactly. Jon's arc is completed that moment, and in many ways, it speaks right to Jon's character that he chooses to break his vows. It's his moment. It's Jon's equivalent to the Daznak's Pit.

Yay, I'm glad you also saw the Dany parallels :)

Jon's ADWD stuff is my favorite of everything in ASOIAF followed only by Bran. That probably explains why I hate the show so much; because I'm most interested in all the stuff at the Wall and beyond and the show seems to only care for the Lannisters and the Game of Thrones. It also explains why I'm so irrationally invested in Kit's interview and Jon's fate on the show and books.

I agree :) I enjoy the Lannisters and the Game of Thrones parts, but my favorites by far are Jon, Dany, and Arianne ( :( ). I also really love Bran's chapters too. I love the magical components. They're really beautiful and haunting. I love how GRRM handles magic.

And yeah, I'm really irrational about Kit's interviews too. Not only because of his supposed "death" but also his comments on his arc this season which are just...so wrong.

[The Northern Scholar]

I want to share this post from i09 which I think is pretty spot on. This passage in particular resonated with me (especially when I think of how they mishandled the Sparrows):

This, in part, represents Martin’s obsession with the horrors of war. Lots of authors convey that war is hell, but fewer of them spend time showing that the aftermath of war can be even worse. After war ends, everyone is traumatized but there’s no longer the sense of glorious purpose to carry you forward, and there are always people who won’t admit the war is over. (E.g. Stannis.)

In some ways, Game of Thrones season five tries to keep up the format of A Storm of Swords, which proved so buzz-worthy in seasons three and four. What’s this year’s Red Wedding? This year’s Purple Wedding? Etc. etc. Hence the endless parade of character deaths, shocking turns, and terrible surprises.

It would have been a bolder, riskier choice to spend more time dwelling on the scars that previous events left behind — but it might have felt more emotionally satisfying, even if the story was still condensed to fit into one season.

[Bosfan]

Yes, he said how he would portray Loras differently, like a true warrior, there was a video on youtube about that but I can't find it (where he waves plastic sword).

Found it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p32xkMZP3Gg