Evidence that the Lemon Tree Was Not Originally in Braavos

[sweetsunray]

Ex-pats are still nominally considered American but still living in foreign countries. The word is misleading. This would go into the subject of at which point does an immigrant stop being their original country and become their adopted country. I wonder what Illyrio thinks he is. Braavosi or Pentoshi.

Not only that: the word "bravo" doesn't mean just "Bravoosi", but one of those duel eager peacocks with fencing swords.

[Eden-Mackenzie]

Maybe bravos train in Braavos, the way maesters train in Oldtown, Unsullied in Astapor, etc.? Or bravos and their style of fighting originated in Braavos but have since spread to the other Free Cities, and the name continued. Whichever way it happened, Illyrio is Pentoshi, a former bravo/schemer and current cheesemonger/schemer who has designs on a Westerosi lordship and shows an extraordinary amount of interest in and affection for a supposed Westerosi orphan.

Lemon trees can grow just about anywhere, if given adequate care they do quite nicely in pots. My hope is Arya's next mission in Braavos takes her to a house with a red door with a big ass lemon tree growing in a huge copper pot. Okay, the copper isn't a requirement, I just like shiny things.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I thought Illyrio was a Bravo. Can you be a Bravo outside of Braavos?

Yes. A bravo was the term for an unsavory swordsman in medieval Italy.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I understand that lemon trees are generally found in warmer climates, but why would Dany be in Tyrosh? Textual evidence says she was shipped out from dragonstone to Braavos.

Did you read the OP? The originally published version suggests that The George originally had Daenerys in Tyrosh with a lemon tree. He decided to put her in Braavos instead but left the lemon tree.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Yes. A bravo was the term for an unsavory swordsman in medieval Italy.

Ah, okay. For some reason my mind smashed the two together.

[Lost Melnibonean]

But what's the reason for her being in Tyrosh"? Is there something special about Tyrosh ?

Why yes, there is...

Tyrosh fought in the Dance of the Dragons on the side of the greens, Aegon's side. The Ninepenny Kings held sway in Tyrosh for some time after they were defeated by Jaehaerys in the Stepstones. A later Archon entered into an agreement with Dorne involving the Targlings. The brother of that Archon, or pehaps a successor, attended the betrothal feast at Drogo's manse in Pentos. The nascent trade war between Lys and Tyrosh was ended just as Myr was about to join Tyrosh with the Golden Company, but curiously, the Archon of Tyrosh, the brother of the man at the betrothal feast, offered terms to Lys to end the war.

Apparently The George decided there was a better reason to put her in Braavos.

[falcotron]

Ah, okay. For some reason my mind smashed the two together.

Be careful; smashing two bravos together after dark is considered challenging them to a duel.

[Frey family reunion]

Why yes, there is...

Apparently The George decided there was a better reason to put her in Braavos.

First off, you might want to give a little credit to the Reddit post, where you lifted this theory from.

But more importantly your premise is still logically flawed. You posit that a last minute decision to change Tyrosh from Braavos was the reason that Martin included a lemon tree as symbolism for Dany's journey. It appears that you believe that Martin decided that he liked the symbol of a lemon tree and when Dany's house with the red door was still in Tyrosh the lemon tree would not be out of the ordinary. But the last minute change from Tyrosh to Braavos creates a bit of a discrepancy, which the author never really intended.

But that ignores the fact that the author didn't create this discrepancy until long after his first two books were published. Thus knowing very well that Dany believes that her red door house with the lemon tree is in Braavos, Martin then much later on starts to establish 1) Dorne is very much tied in with lemons), and 2) Braavos is devoid of trees, especially citrus, which creates the discrepancy.

then in WOW Martin has a chance to correct the discrepancy using two disgruntled soldiers at the theatre. When one soldier grouses that there are no orange, or lemon, or lime, or hot peppers, or bare bellied women in Braavos, his buddy tells him those are in Lys, and Myr, and Volantis (interestingly enough no mention of Tyrosh). Thus instead of minimizing Martin's earlier discrepancy he continues to highlight it. Martin could have very easily solved this problem by having the other soldier respond that only the wealthy in Braavos can afford citrus trees. Boom problem solved.

The issue really isn't whether or not there could be a lemon tree in Braavos, the issue is why is Martin increasingly putting a bit of doubt in the reader's mind as to the accuracy of Dany's memories?

And I think that is one of the reasons that Martin forgoes an omniscient narrator and uses the POV structure. Mysteries are kept alive because the reader is dependent on the observations and memories of the various POV characters. For example Sansa's memories are notoriously unreliable, even Eddard on his own admission remembers very little of his last moments with Lyanna. These fuzzy memories allow Martin to create a great deal of ambiguity in his story.

Here the theory highlights the fact that Dany is relying on a memory from her extreme youth, and youthful memories can be extremely hazy by their very nature. And for those events that she can't remember at all, the books highlight her extreme dependence on Viserys for giving her all of her background info. If nothing else, this allows for Martin to create mystery and ambiguity in his character's back stories. In other words, Jon is not the only character who "knows nothing".

Finally while symbolism is important, it doesn't mean that Martin can't use an object for both symbolic and plot purposes. Personally I think that the lemon tree and the lemons in ASOIAF, stand for a bitter truth. (and much of the truth in ASOIAF does turn out to be fairly bitter). While sugar and sweetness often stands for something that is false. Which is why Sansa likes her lemon cakes, she likes her truth sweetened by a bit of fantasy. My guess is when Dany lands in Dorne, she's going to learn a bitter truth about her origin. She may learn that she is not the last Targaryen heir, and thus Westeros may not be her birthright which she has always assumed that Robert and his "dogs" have stolen from her. She may have to come to the bitter conclusion that she comes as a conqueror not a liberator.

Or perhaps not. Only time and hopefully the next book will tell.

[Lost Melnibonean]

First off, you might want to give a little credit to the Reddit post, where you lifted this theory from.

But more importantly your premise is still logically flawed. You posit that a last minute decision to change Tyrosh from Braavos was the reason that Martin included a lemon tree as symbolism for Dany's journey. It appears that you believe that Martin decided that he liked the symbol of a lemon tree and when Dany's house with the red door was still in Tyrosh the lemon tree would not be out of the ordinary. But the last minute change from Tyrosh to Braavos creates a bit of a discrepancy, which the author never really intended.

But that ignores the fact that the author didn't create this discrepancy until long after his first two books were published. Thus knowing very well that Dany believes that her red door house with the lemon tree is in Braavos, Martin then much later on starts to establish 1) Dorne is very much tied in with lemons), and 2) Braavos is devoid of trees, especially citrus, which creates the discrepancy.

then in WOW Martin has a chance to correct the discrepancy using two disgruntled soldiers at the theatre. When one soldier grouses that there are no orange, or lemon, or lime, or hot peppers, or bare bellied women in Braavos, his buddy tells him those are in Lys, and Myr, and Volantis (interestingly enough no mention of Tyrosh). Thus instead of minimizing Martin's earlier discrepancy he continues to highlight it. Martin could have very easily solved this problem by having the other soldier respond that only the wealthy in Braavos can afford citrus trees. Boom problem solved.

The issue really isn't whether or not there could be a lemon tree in Braavos, the issue is why is Martin increasingly putting a bit of doubt in the reader's mind as to the accuracy of Dany's memories?

And I think that is one of the reasons that Martin forgoes an omniscient narrator and uses the POV structure. Mysteries are kept alive because the reader is dependent on the observations and memories of the various POV characters. For example Sansa's memories are notoriously unreliable, even Eddard on his own admission remembers very little of his last moments with Lyanna. These fuzzy memories allow Martin to create a great deal of ambiguity in his story.

Here the theory highlights the fact that Dany is relying on a memory from her extreme youth, and youthful memories can be extremely hazy by their very nature. And for those events that she can't remember at all, the books highlight her extreme dependence on Viserys for giving her all of her background info. If nothing else, this allows for Martin to create mystery and ambiguity in his character's back stories. In other words, Jon is not the only character who "knows nothing".

Finally while symbolism is important, it doesn't mean that Martin can't use an object for both symbolic and plot purposes. Personally I think that the lemon tree and the lemons in ASOIAF, stand for a bitter truth. (and much of the truth in ASOIAF does turn out to be fairly bitter). While sugar and sweetness often stands for something that is false. Which is why Sansa likes her lemon cakes, she likes her truth sweetened by a bit of fantasy. My guess is when Dany lands in Dorne, she's going to learn a bitter truth about her origin. She may learn that she is not the last Targaryen heir, and thus Westeros may not be her birthright which she has always assumed that Robert and his "dogs" have stolen from her. She may have to come to the bitter conclusion that she comes as a conqueror not a liberator.

Or perhaps not. Only time and hopefully the next book will tell.

Done. I even sent a little love your way. :)

[Frey family reunion]

Done. I even sent a little love your way. :)

The only small part I contributed to the Lemon tree = Dorne theory is that the possible location of Dany's red house, if indeed she is from Dorne, would be Planky town at the mouth of the Greenblood. I wish I could remember who first came up with the theory, because amusingly the mods shut it down really quick. And I always thought that the theory was fairly innocuous so I never quite understood why it got locked as soon as it did. Since then it's popped up through various other threads like a bad penny.

I'm still not sure that I'm sold on it, but I do find it kind of interesting. In fact all of the faulty POV issues I find pretty interesting. It's a pretty neat way to create ambiguity throughout almost everything in the story, and it allows for endless theorizing while we patiently(?) wait for the next book.

I do think that if there was a last second switch from Tyrosh to Braavos for Dany's childhood, then the merchant commenting on Dany's Tyroshi accent was definitely a holdover from that. And perhaps the brother to the Archon of Tyrosh as well.

Which makes me wonder why GRRM is now attaching the Tyroshi daughter to Doran's schemes. Is Dorne becoming the stand in for what GRRM originally intended for Tyrosh?

[Lost Melnibonean]

The only small part I contributed to the Lemon tree = Dorne theory is that the possible location of Dany's red house, if indeed she is from Dorne, would be Planky town at the mouth of the Greenblood. I wish I could remember who first came up with the theory, because amusingly the mods shut it down really quick. And I always thought that the theory was fairly innocuous so I never quite understood why it got locked as soon as it did. Since then it's popped up through various other threads like a bad penny.

I'm still not sure that I'm sold on it, but I do find it kind of interesting. In fact all of the faulty POV issues I find pretty interesting. It's a pretty neat way to create ambiguity throughout almost everything in the story, and it allows for endless theorizing while we patiently(?) wait for the next book.

I do think that if there was a last second switch from Tyrosh to Braavos for Dany's childhood, then the merchant commenting on Dany's Tyroshi accent was definitely a holdover from that. And perhaps the brother to the Archon of Tyrosh as well.

Which makes me wonder why GRRM is now attaching the Tyroshi daughter to Doran's schemes. Is Dorne becoming the stand in for what GRRM originally intended for Tyrosh?

I've seen the other threads, but your thread was the first one I found engaging because of the correlation with Dorne. One of reasons your thread is engaging is that you're willing to engage in thoughtful discussion since you're not wedded to the idea.

[ChillyPolly]

I do think that if there was a last second switch from Tyrosh to Braavos for Dany's childhood, then the merchant commenting on Dany's Tyroshi accent was definitely a holdover from that.

Yes, possibly. But that does not make it a mistake. It makes sense for someone to be able to speak in the accent of her childhood - and that is more likely to mean: "where she lived when she was 5-7" than "where she lived when she was a sheltered infant". There was no need to change it, so it was not changed.

In the House with the Red Door, her language was Westerosi

[Lost Melnibonean]

But more importantly your premise is still logically flawed. You posit that a last minute decision to change Tyrosh from Braavos was the reason that Martin included a lemon tree as symbolism for Dany's journey. It appears that you believe that Martin decided that he liked the symbol of a lemon tree and when Dany's house with the red door was still in Tyrosh the lemon tree would not be out of the ordinary. But the last minute change from Tyrosh to Braavos creates a bit of a discrepancy, which the author never really intended.

Curiously, the term "lemon tree" only appears in Daenerys's first POV and in the House of the Undying Ones.

But that ignores the fact that the author didn't create this discrepancy until long after his first two books were published. Thus knowing very well that Dany believes that her red door house with the lemon tree is in Braavos, Martin then much later on starts to establish 1) Dorne is very much tied in with lemons), and 2) Braavos is devoid of trees, especially citrus, which creates the discrepancy.

Did you mean to say, "long after his first three books?" I believe Game, Clash, and Storm were written near simultaneously since they were published within four years of each other, and he wrothe The Hedge Knight in there too. The first time the reader should raise an eyebrow is in Arya II, Storm 13...

"Hang this," she said, handing him the duck.

Anguy shuffled his feet. "We were thinking we might eat it, Sharna. With lemons. If you had some."

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool? Why don't you hop out back to the lemon trees and pick us a bushel, and some nice olives and pomegranates too." She shook a finger at him. "Now, I suppose I could cook it with Lem's cloak, if you like, but not till it's hung for a few days. You'll eat rabbit, or you won't eat. Roast rabbit on a spit would be quickest, if you've got a hunger. Or might be you'd like it stewed, with ale and onions."

If lemons don't grow in the Riverlands, how come they can grow in Braavos? (Although, I'm not sure if the reader knows how far north Braavos is yet?) But yes, the first time we're told that trees do not grow in Braavos is in Feast, Arya I, Feast VI to be exact. And it should be noted that when The George decided to break his behemoth in two, Arya was supposed to go into Dance, but his publisher convinced him otherwise since Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion were all in Dance. If Arya had gone into Dance, the first time we're told that trees don't grow in Braavos, is when Samwell tells us they do grow in the courts and gardens of the mighty in Samwell III, Feast 26. If treeless Braavos had been introduced that way, we really wouldn't have a controversy, would we?

]then in WOW Martin has a chance to correct the discrepancy using two disgruntled soldiers at the theatre. When one soldier grouses that there are no orange, or lemon, or lime, or hot peppers, or bare bellied women in Braavos, his buddy tells him those are in Lys, and Myr, and Volantis (interestingly enough no mention of Tyrosh).

Very.

Thus instead of minimizing Martin's earlier discrepancy he continues to highlight it.

Which is the only reason I began paying serious attention to this issue.

Martin could have very easily solved this problem by having the other soldier respond that only the wealthy in Braavos can afford citrus trees. Boom problem solved.

Well, Samwell already told us that.

The issue really isn't whether or not there could be a lemon tree in Braavos, the issue is why is Martin increasingly putting a bit of doubt in the reader's mind as to the accuracy of Dany's memories?

But is that really what he's doing? I don't think so anymore, at least not purposely...

Trees did not grow in Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

Samwell III, Feast 26

Once Daenerys lost the protection of the mighty in Braavos, she lost her tree.

Finally while symbolism is important, it doesn't mean that Martin can't use an object for both symbolic and plot purposes. Personally I think that the lemon tree and the lemons in ASOIAF, stand for a bitter truth. (and much of the truth in ASOIAF does turn out to be fairly bitter). While sugar and sweetness often stands for something that is false. Which is why Sansa likes her lemon cakes, she likes her truth sweetened by a bit of fantasy.

I think we see eye to eye on this.

[Frey family reunion]

Curiously, the term "lemon tree" only appears in Daenerys's first POV and in the House of the Undying Ones.

Did you mean to say, "long after his first three books?" I believe Game, Clash, and Storm were written near simultaneously since they were published within four years of each other, and he wrothe The Hedge Knight in there too. The first time the reader should raise an eyebrow is in Arya II, Storm 13...

If lemons don't grow in the Riverlands, how come they can grow in Braavos? (Although, I'm not sure if the reader knows how far north Braavos is yet?) But yes, the first time we're told that trees do not grow in Braavos is in Feast, Arya I, Feast VI to be exact. And it should be noted that when The George decided to break his behemoth in two, Arya was supposed to go into Dance, but his publisher convinced him otherwise since Daenerys, Jon, and Tyrion were all in Dance. If Arya had gone into Dance, the first time we're told that trees don't grow in Braavos, is when Samwell tells us they do grow in the courts and gardens of the mighty in Samwell III, Feast 26. If treeless Braavos had been introduced that way, we really wouldn't have a controversy, would we?

Very.

Which is the only reason I began paying serious attention to this issue.

Well, Samwell already told us that.

But is that really what he's doing? I don't think so anymore, at least not purposely...

Samwell III, Feast 26

Once Daenerys lost the protection of the mighty in Braavos, she lost her tree.

I think we see eye to eye on this.

Good catch as to the Samwell quote.

As an aside, when the first thread came up, I spent a bit of time pming the OP (wish I could remember who it was). Both of us at the time were championing the idea that the Targaryens believed in the idea of reincarnation, and at least my thought at the time was that Dany's memory of the House with the Red Door was actually a memory of her past life as Rhaegar.

Other than that possibility I never could figure out how Dany could have actually been from Dorne, since Viserys would have been old enough to have noticed a baby swap, and I couldn't imagine how Viserys could be fooled into thinking Dany was his sister when he wasn't. It was Chainbreaker's suggestion that Viserys was the one who was trying to convince Dany that she was a Targaryen (and not some smelly fish) that it kind of hit me that there could be a way for her to be from Dorne, and for a reason that passing her off as a Targaryen would benefit Viserys.

[Sanset]

I absolutely love this pearl about Tyrosh and Braavos changeling. It is like Aemon Steelsong and Little Monster. I just want Dany to go to these locations on her way to Westeros so readers can play the tourists. I guess she's supposed to mess up Volantis (Like it's not that the Red Priests ain't doing a nice job, but Dany can help, a lot. Cersei parallel, here!).

So, we have Lemons and Apples again. Red door, lemon tree. Sansa apple and lemon cakes. Auburn hair and silver blonde. And they are both candidates in Maggy The Frog's prophecy about a younger and more beautiful queen. Another clash of Ice-Sansa and Fire-Dany. It seems there's a theme going on with these details.
Maybe Dany will cast Cersei down and then Sansa'll take over. Maybe these are the three queens Littlefinger was talking about. If Sansa marries Aegon, definitely Dany and Sansa will be in opposite sides. With these datails, it works even without Aegon.
By the way, Stannis likes his water with lemon juice. Oh well, he does know about soreness and disappointment.
We can add a pinch of Arya with the Braavos connection and who knows how she's going to feel about Sansa (At least Sansa's not in Arya's creepy list). Jon is Dany's parallel and Sansa has her own karma with him, too. This is going to be awesome! I really want the sixth book!!!

And I didn't mention Bran. I like healthy ingredients. I'm missing some oranges and plums. (I would add pears (*) in honor of Discworld). :D
I almost forgot about the Fossoways and Aerion Targaryen. There it goes, another apple-dragon parallel. Varys! Dracarys!

I'm not buying the anti-Lemon propaganda. Albus Dumbledore likes lemon candies and I'm ok with it, though I prefer pineapples and oranges. :D

In synthesis: I think there is a meaning in the lemon tree. GRRM obviously reread the paragraph and only changed «Tyrosh» for «Braavos». And as it's been said up-thread, GRRM keeps giving the lemons screen-time... this doesn't look like Dumbledore's lemon candies, on the contrary, as George acknowledged in AGoT: «The devil is in the details, they say. (...) Fortunately, I know a lot of angels.» ;)

Ex-pats are still nominally considered American but still living in foreign countries. The word is misleading. This would go into the subject of at which point does an immigrant stop being their original country and become their adopted country. I wonder what Illyrio thinks he is. Braavosi or Pentoshi.

I think Illyrio is Illyroshy ;) I guess he knows both cities well enough to be both Braavosi and Pentoshi. But I think in essence, he is a slaver, so he is betraying the soul of both Free Cities. He is like an old vampire breeding black and red dragons and gobbling slaves. That's his nature, the scheming is only his hobby. That's why if he is or thinks himself as a braavosi, he is a traitor to the very nature of Braavos. But he doesn't respect Pentos, either. So, Illyrioshy fits him better.

ETA: (*) I found the pears!!! :D
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tyrosh#Economy

Quote from the wiki, Tyrosh page:
Slaves and sellswords are common in Tyrosh. It is renowned for its pear brandy, and Tyroshi armorsmiths can make fantastic helmets shaped like birds and animals, chased with precious metals.

[cocoalover1956]

I'm of the opinion that Daenerys is mixing up her childhood memories.

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen."

Doran, Oberyn, Willem Darry, the Sealord of Braavos. Four people knew Daenerys was in Braavos, three of whom signed this document and one of whom had it in his possession. Unless Doran was willing to forge these signatures (except Oberyn's), was lying to Arianne, was planning to create an alliance with false information, and was willing to provoke Braavos by falsifying the word of their Sealord, Daenerys was in Braavos in her early childhood.

However, we know Daenerys spent a significant amount of time in more southern regions, so the lemon tree might actually be down there. If, say, she and Viserys went straight from Braavos to Tyrosh, its pretty reasonable to assume that in her memories, the line between Braavos and Tyrosh got blurred. Basically, Daenerys was in Braavos, but her memories are of her time in another city and she assumes its Braavos.

Funnily enough, Tyrosh was part of the plan too. Arianne was going to be a cupbearer for the Archon of Tyrosh, and that's how she would meet Viserys. Also, the brother of the Archon of Tyrosh attended Daenerys and Drogo's wedding. I think Tyrosh and Braavos are both closely tied to Daenerys (she speaks with a Tyroshi accent, so maybe that's where she spent the most time) but she clings only to her association with Braavos. It could be there's something in place with Tyrosh that Martin doesn't want revealed just yet. This lemon tree business could just be him using the unreliability of childhood memories to simultaneously hide and hint at a future plot point.

[Rippounet]

However, we know Daenerys spent a significant amount of time in more southern regions, so the lemon tree might actually be down there. If, say, she and Viserys went straight from Braavos to Tyrosh, its pretty reasonable to assume that in her memories, the line between Braavos and Tyrosh got blurred. Basically, Daenerys was in Braavos, but her memories are of her time in another city and she assumes its Braavos.

Funnily enough, Tyrosh was part of the plan too. Arianne was going to be a cupbearer for the Archon of Tyrosh, and that's how she would meet Viserys. Also, the brother of the Archon of Tyrosh attended Daenerys and Drogo's wedding. I think Tyrosh and Braavos are both closely tied to Daenerys (she speaks with a Tyroshi accent, so maybe that's where she spent the most time) but she clings only to her association with Braavos. It could be there's something in place with Tyrosh that Martin doesn't want revealed just yet. This lemon tree business could just be him using the unreliability of childhood memories to simultaneously hide and hint at a future plot point.

:agree:

That's my take on the subject as well. A minor confusion in Dany's memories, but also a very subtle hint that Tyrosh has a role to play later on.

[Mithras]

What is also interesting is that the George decided to make Tyrosh the base of the Blackfyres. Daemon's wife was a Tyroshi. Doran has intimate relationship with the Archon of Tyrosh.

[Lord Wraith]

What is also interesting is that the George decided to make Tyrosh the base of the Blackfyres. Daemon's wife was a Tyroshi. Doran has intimate relationship with the Archon of Tyrosh.

Good point. To the OP great catch but still doesn't fix the problem of the many mentions of lemon trees and Dorne which I crazily believe has to mean something...

[StarkofWinterfell]

It means Dorne will side with Aegon.