Rant & Rave Without Repercussion s 5 continued [book spoilers]

[Le Cygne]

No, he wanted Lysa gone, she served her purpose. He was clearly trying to make her jealous from day one, all the way back to Cat, to keep her where he wanted her, "Only Cat" was the last in a long line of that.

 

(Also the Sweetrobin betrothal was tossed out after Lysa died, that made the Harry betrothal possible.)

 

And the snow castle was so obviously written to be an attempted rape scene, you'd have to toss out most of it to make it seem like anything but that. He says "May I come into your castle." And she says "Don't break it."

 

He's laying it on thick. The tower, the gatehouse, and then SR says he was hurting the castle. The whole thing is a metaphor. She's stronger when she doesn't give in to him, and she resists in that scene.

 

She throws snow (Stark symbolism) at him, to kill the "tall tower" boner after it was "raised." When the giant crashes the gatehouse, it's "more than Sansa could stand" and she reaches for SR's hand. And he says the "giant hurt the castle" (Sansa!)

 

There are layers upon layers there.

 

(Towers, daggers, dick. This is GRRM, he uses phallic symbolism all the time. Tower of Joy, anyone? Come into the castle he's used before, also gatehouse.)

[Lordsteve666]

she became dangerously deranged.

 

...  :shocked:

 

She was already well off the deep end before Sansa and LF even arrived!

 

I dread to think what she's do if she lived long enough to see the Other's knocking on the Bloody Gate, LF probably did the Vale a service by getting rid of her....possibly.

[kissdbyfire]

So much catching up to do! Just saw that Max von Sydow will be taking on the role of Bloodraven...

 

I love MvS, and now I'm wondering, will he receive the same treatment as so many other great actors that came before him? 

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~

Ruling through Lysa caused no opposition by the Lords of the Eyrie, but ruling himself through his status as regent made matters much more complicated than previously planned. So no, I don't think he intended to set a trap for Lysa, he just had to get rid of her because she became dangerously deranged.

 

I see a kind of inverse pattern here for the show.  LF knew Lysa was deranged, but didn't realize how dangerous she could be.  He knows Ramsay is dangerous, but not deranged.   

[TheLightning Lord]

I can't wait to see how they depict the ironborn, but then again I guess it can't be worse than Dorne.

[Cas Stark]

So much catching up to do! Just saw that Max von Sydow will be taking on the role of Bloodraven...

 

I love MvS, and now I'm wondering, will he receive the same treatment as so many other great actors that came before him? 

 

Yes.  Without a doubt.

 

Who knows what kind of bizarro celebrity cameos we might start seeing in GOT from here on out.  Stunt casting, they can add that now to their list of misdeeds, LOL.

[Toth]

...  :shocked:

 

She was already well off the deep end before Sansa and LF even arrived!

 

I dread to think what she's do if she lived long enough to see the Other's knocking on the Bloody Gate, LF probably did the Vale a service by getting rid of her....possibly.

 

Yeah, but I believe Littlefinger thought he could control her this way. And he obviously couldn't because blurting out all she knows of his plans in her mad fury was definitely something he never intended her to do... therefore he decided then and there to push her out of the moondoor. Sansa witnessed him changing his plan then and there. Of course he intended for Lysa to go... but not so soon.

 

@Le Cygne: I never denied the creepy snowcastle scene was anything but that allegory you describe. I just think him helping out building the castle was him showing her genuine affection and then it just became less and less innocent and forceful when his repressed desire for Catelyn had set in. We know how uncomfortable Sansa felt because we were in her head, but I was just trying to analyse what happened in his head. And no, I don't think he did it on purpose to make Lysa jealous. It was a far too close business to be any plan of his, Littlefinger could have lost everything if he weren't able to convince Lysa to let go of Sansa, that's far too risky for a plan his. He just gave in to his own obsession for Catelyn and the conflicting things he sees in Sansa, that's my interpretation.

[Annara Snow]

 

Kissing Sansa worked perfectly for him in the show at least, which didn't include Marillion at all but simply made out that it was all an accident.

 

Kiss Sansa > make Lysa mad > Lysa attacks Sansa > wait nearby for the right moment > strike and push her through the door.

 

By letting it playout that way he has Sansa unwillingly drawn in as a witness to the whole affair and he knows she "trusts" him more than anyone else at that time. If he's just killed Lysa when the two of them were alone it would look really suspicious and I doubt the Vale lords would believe him, but the heir to Winterfell and cousin of the victim....much more believable.

 

The book is quite different but perhaps LF just waited out until there was someone suitable in the castle to blame the murder on. Had the singer not been present maybe he would not have gone as far and would have just waited for the right moment.

 

He definitely doesn't come across as heroic for his actions to me at least. He manipulated the whole scene in both the book and show, simply to get his own way. Sansa was never in any real danger as he was always going to be waiting nearby to save her and off Lysa.

He's essentially playing the same game all the way though the books, getting people to do his dirty work for him. And in this case the lady of the Vale effectively kills herself with her own paranoia and a little bit of a "push" (both emotional and physical) from LF. He knew exactly what he was up to and what the end game would be.

 

It was even more dangerous for him in the show, where he had no scapegoat to blame and would have lost his head if Sansa didn't decide to save his skin, which came to him as a surprise.

 

He did the dirty work himself in case of Lysa, which is unlike his style. Another reason why the idea he had it planned is extremely unlikely. It would have been a really convoluted and absurd plan full of completely unnecessary risks, and LF could have only planned if he had prophetic abilities and could perfectly predict the behavior of Lysa, Sansa and Marillion. There's no way that murdering someone in secret is more suspicious and risky than murdering someone in front of actual witnesses. 

 

Furthermore, as I said, Lysa may have murdered Sansa before LF was able to intervene, she could have used Marillion to help her; and as a result of what happened, Sansa is now witness to LF's murder of Lysa and has also heard Lysa blurt out the truth about Jon Arryn's death - and, even though she's now too scared and too helpless to do something about it, these are things she could use against him one day. Even if Sansa had decided not to back his story, he would have been in trouble. 

 

In addition to that, LF didn't get in a better position with Sansa by kissing her forcibly and acting rapey. She would have trusted him more if he had been able to keep up the father figure act and hadn't started to act creepy with her.

 

 

I just realized I have forgotten to write "heroic" moment. Damn sarcasm doesn't convey well... He was basically Sansa's cavalry in that moment, jumping in to save both her and all his own plans Lysa was going to bubble out. That's pretty much the closest he ever got to be heroic, that's just what I wanted to say. I never see him leading any army to reclaim the North for Sansa (or even save her, Gods forbid) in the books, that's something Sansa is going to do herself. So there will be no more rescue by him.

And yes, I do think the creepy snow castle and kiss scene was genuine on his part and not planned at all to make Lysa angry. Making Lysa jealous was basically torpeding his own plans since for him playing on time and marrying Sansa to Harry he needed both her and Sweetrobyn to stick around as long as possible. Ruling through Lysa caused no opposition by the Lords of the Eyrie, but ruling himself through his status as regent made matters much more complicated than previously planned. So no, I don't think he intended to set a trap for Lysa, he just had to get rid of her because she became dangerously deranged.

 

That, too.

 

This entire incident was an example of LF being able to think quickly and boldly on his feet and get out of trouble, not of any long-standing plans. He does have long-standing plans (such as the consequences of Jon Arryn's death, Joffrey's murder and framing of Tyrion, "rescuing" i.e. kidnapping Sansa, or presumably his current plans for the Vale), but this was not one of them, just like lying about the dagger was not a part of any long-standing previous plan (it's not like he could have had any idea what would happen at Winterfell or that Cat would come to KL), but LF seizing the opportunity and making a quick, bold move. 

[kissdbyfire]

 

Yes.  Without a doubt.

 

Who knows what kind of bizarro celebrity cameos we might start seeing in GOT from here on out.  Stunt casting, they can add that now to their list of misdeeds, LOL.

 

Yeah, I know. Fuck. Especially with BR, since they don't seem to be too into that aspect of the story anyway. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

LF had been manipulating Lysa since he was forced out of Riverrun at the beginning of the rebellion. He set her up with the Sansa kiss, giving him temporary control over his .... stepson, dubious at best but effective in the meantime. His next goal on the show is power, then Sansa, he still wants her but he made a fatal mistake with the Boltons that caused him to lose her physically (virginity) and metaphorically (how could she ever trust him again?), in the books, he is dancing on a thin wire or on thin ice. Sansa is mentally under his spell because she is wanted for regicide and is trapped but her virginity is protecting her. Either way, either show or book, LF may love power but Sansa is the woman he wants in his bed, make no mistake.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Speaking of cast news and such, considering we have now young Robert and young Ned, still no news of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Do they even know who these people are, right?

[Marcus Agrippa]

Rewatching all the Stannis scene's and using the book- I came up with the fact that no matter what happens- alive or dead his fate makes zero sense. To beat this into the ground I'll Start with his dead- it's clear even in the show Daenery seems like she is going to fight a Baratheon. Considering Gendry is a no show the last remaining one is Stannis. The speech at the beginning of the season I marked as forshadowing because it made sense. We are then looking at the book because of the visions of the trident and the man in ice armor. So there is that. On the Stannis is alive thread I found something on the internet saying he is alive for a list of reasons as well. Still, thats a difficult to believe considering what I have seen.

 

Now being alive even makes less logical sense- he had the telltale end of his arc death. He has no influence, no money, no power, and no followers. The only thing he has left is sansa Stark who has no reason to back him. LF is cleary going to be heading north who probably will kill Stannis even if he is alive. Unless, they continue to ruin LF's character and have him spare Stannis for no reason other then baratheon. Him going to the wall makes little sense either unless he kills mel. If that happens then we lose out on mels purpose who cleary is meant to die for her beliefs. Also, direct revenge in game of thrones never happens. The

[Toth]

Speaking of cast news and such, considering we have now young Robert and young Ned, still no news of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Do they even know who these people are, right?

 

I'm also thinking the battle will be only Ned vs. Arthur Dayne and nobody else. Why bother with allies, more Kingsguard or Howland Reed? It's not like anyone will count the number of combatants...

 

And of course they will change every single line of dialogue because why not.

[Le Cygne]

Toth, disagree but I will add, he doesn't feel genuine affection for her, he doesn't even see her as a person. It's always all about him. The scene was about how he deceived her, she said so. And he admitted this, he said he never intended to take her home.

He said what he really wanted, and that's when he forcibly kissed her. So in the scene that's about deception about taking her home, and raping her, with her represented by the castle, Winterfell, that also suggests this.

He doesn't want her to have all the things Winterfell represents to her, her inner strength, and making choices of her own. He took all those away from her, he betrayed her mother and her father, and he betrayed her.

And rape is about power over someone, that's what he's getting off on.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm also thinking the battle will be only Ned vs. Arthur Dayne and nobody else. Why bother with allies, more Kingsguard or Howland Reed? It's not like anyone will count the number of combatants...
 
And of course they will change every single line of dialogue because why not.

Yeah, but... isn't supposed to be all about Rhaegar? I mean, what's the point of the tower if there is no Rhaegar? :dunno:

[Lordsteve666]

For the Tower of Joy you'd need several flashbacks to lead up to it I suspect.

 

• Show Raegar "kidnapping" Lyana?
• Brandon etc going to Aerys to plead for her return and subsequently getting toasted?
• The battle at the Trident with Robert killing Rhaegar?

Without these non-readers won't really understand what is going on and the importance of who is who.

 

As for the TOJ:

I'd imagine it'll be Ned + Reed vs Dayne + ?. Then they go into the tower and find Lyana and baby Jon.

No real need for the other Kingsguard etc as they haven't even been named in the show and I can't even remember their names having read the book recently!

Ned & Reed approach the tower on horseback, we get some moody shots of the tower (has to be one of those two shown in the locations thread, they look perfect), blood red skies or something foreboding. There is a small amount of dialogue with the Kingsguard, Ned tries to reason with them but fails.

A decent bit of combat where Ned fights Dayne but starts to get beaten only for Reed to save his arse at the last minute, therefore showing how much of a close friend he is to Ned later on and why Ned would trust him with a secret like Jon's birth.

Then go inside and see Lyana dying with a new born baby, and her asking Ned to protect him and look after him for her.

Cut back to Bran with a shocked look on his face....job done for the season end.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Without these non-readers won't really understand what is going on and the importance of who is who.

Do yo think they (readers and producers/writers) care? Like, I'm sure 99% of the Unsullied have no idea who Egg is.

[Toth]

Yeah, but... isn't supposed to be all about Rhaegar? I mean, what's the point of the tower if there is no Rhaegar? :dunno:

 

The problem is, I would answer this question with book-logic, not with D&D-logic. I have no freaking idea what the point of this fight according to D&D-logic is.

 

In the books, it is all about Ned and Lyanna and whatever the Kingsguard is defending (their prince and rightful heir to throne of course). Ned of course wants his sister back, but also wants to protect her from a) becoming a rallypoint for Targaryen-loyalists if this thing with Jon comes out and b ) protect her from Robert. He had seen what had happened to Elia and her children and he doesn't want Lyanna to share the same fate if Robert finds out about her having willingly chosen to go with Rhaegar (that's what most likely had happened from a narrative point of view).

The Kingsguard pretty much wanted to go to option A and Ned sees the madness in that, this is what the fight itself was all about.

Rhaegar himself... I don't think he really thought further than the whole prophecy-thing. In my head-canon he and Lyanna already regularly met in secret before and the whole abduction thing might have been happened because she got pregnant from him. That's the only way I can see a reasonable plan behind the whole locking up in the ToJ thing: Hiding her until she gives birth and then return her pretending nothing had happened. Of course he slipped up and with him having been exposed as the 'kidnapper' everything went downhill. So... if Rhaegar had been at the ToJ in the show-canon, I do think he would have gladly returned Lyanna and took the baby. The prophecy was always more important than the kingdom to him, so why not raising Jon in exile? Makes more sense to him than risking the fate of the world with Jon being its last hope just for the sake of going down fighting. That's not Rhaegar's style.

 

Therefore... the fight is was all about Ned freeing Jon from his fate of becoming a Targ-rallypoint and of course his promise to Lyanna to protect him from Bobby B. Rhaegar there wouldn't make sense. But... you know, book-logic, not D&D-logic.

[Lordsteve666]

Do yo think they (readers and producers/writers) care? Like, I'm sure 99% of the Unsullied have no idea who Egg is.

Yeah but Egg doesn't really affect the story of ASOIAF like Rhaegar, Dayne, Reed and a few others do. They are directly linked to what happened with the TOJ and potentially Jon's birth so they need at least some small introduction so we have a vague idea what is going on.

[Le Cygne]

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