Dating: Matchmakers, dealbreakers and affairs, oh my!

[Resonant Frequency]

Thanks of the words for encouragement. You're right in the sense that I acted the way I did not for her to sing my praises or anything, but because I felt it was the right thing to do. It's not like now, after the fact, I feel it was a mistake just because of the way she's seemingly blown me off. I'd do it all over again regardless of the outcome.

My biggest concern is that she was so inebriated, she has little to no recollection of how things actually transpired and perhaps her friend filled in the blanks in manner that painted me as some sort of villain. I hope that's not the case, but I wouldn't be shocked by that sort of thing happening at this point.

[TerraPrime]

My general advice, which is highly unpopular, on these things is this: 

 

If you're out on a date, with a potential for sex, then don't drink more than a beer or two. And if your date is drinking more than that, then that's a sign that you should not proceed with anything that might require consent. In your case, by the time she was getting hammered in front of you and before leaving the bar, you should have begged off, transferred the responsibility of taking care of her back to her friend, and left.

 

Similarly, if you plan on getting drunk, for real, then don't plan on having sex afterwards. 

 

And this is advice I give to guys as well as gals. Both need to protect themselves from possible messy situations where sex occurrs while one or more parties is/are inebriated to the stage where consent is questionable. 

 

I know - this is hardly practical, and sex in the Western World will stop if people actually do this, and why would I want to deny people the fun of a drunken shacking. But I still feel obligated to put this out there. 

[Guy Kilmore]

My general advice, which is highly unpopular, on these things is this: 

 

If you're out on a date, with a potential for sex, then don't drink more than a beer or two. And if your date is drinking more than that, then that's a sign that you should not proceed with anything that might require consent. In your case, by the time she was getting hammered in front of you and before leaving the bar, you should have begged off, transferred the responsibility of taking care of her back to her friend, and left.

 

Similarly, if you plan on getting drunk, for real, then don't plan on having sex afterwards. 

 

And this is advice I give to guys as well as gals. Both need to protect themselves from possible messy situations where sex occurrs while one or more parties is/are inebriated to the stage where consent is questionable. 

 

I know - this is hardly practical, and sex in the Western World will stop if people actually do this, and why would I want to deny people the fun of a drunken shacking. But I still feel obligated to put this out there. 

I echo this and feel that my life has been much better because of it.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Terra's advice is considered unpopular? I don't think I've ever *not* listened to what Terra advised. And as a result, I haven't been castrated. Yet.

[Felguy]

Some people are not there to date. They are there to look for a lifesaver to keep themselves afloat. If a person has the fortitude to be someone else's lifesaver, then by all means, go for it and congratulations. Yes, we all need emotional support from our friends and lover, but there's a line where it becomes too much, but that line is of course, different for everyone. Also, the problem with being someone else's lifesaver is that if you're not careful, if you can't stay afloat enough for 2, both of you go down.

 

Then there are the nurses, who look for others to nurse and surround and protect and uplift. They're not really happy unless the other person in the relationship needs them that way. This usually makes for a co-dependent type relationship.

Yeah, this is pretty much correct. :P

 

I like to cheer people up and help them out of their moods but it became too much.... . 

[Bonesy]

Along the lines of what Chataya said, I was in a LTR in my 20's where the woman explicitly told me sex was approved no matter how fucked up she was. At the time, seemed like a sweet situation. And yes, I was occasionally fucking the most realistic blow up doll ever. Something that I wouldn't dream of doing now for numerous reasons, but I digress.

Was that still consent?

[TerraPrime]

Re: Chats

 

Yes, I agree that in a sustained and on-going relationship, where there's a history to draw upon, drunk sex is less problematic (though see response to Bonsey)

 

 

Re: LFiTA

 

LoL by the dogs I hope I never steer you to options that result in castration. Only to cakes and ice cream. And pizzas. 

 

 

 

Re: Bonesy

 

That's a very, very gray/grey area. 

 

If one holds on to the principle that every episode of sexual encounter can become non-consentual as soon as one partner desires so, then a blanket pre-approval is problematic in that it erases the chance for the incapacitated person to withdraw consent. The gray area is whether one considers a lack of protest as an affirmative consent. I think there are situations where this perfectly fine standard, but there are also plenty of times when it is not.

 

 

But if it's something set up between a couple, with plenty of discussion before hand, then it's really not anyone else's business.

 

But^2, even in the BDSM community where consent to be "abused" is the cornerstone event, consent from mentally affected individuals (drugs, alcohol, hypnosis, etc.) is still a controversy, even when the subject clearly consents to being drugged, being forced alcohol, being hynotized, etc.

 

So.... yeah. 

[Bonesy]

Yeah, that's why it preys on my mind. I want to ask her about it but we're only casual acquaintances now and she's married. Also, it's been 14 years.

So I'm not gonna.

[sperry]

Yeah, that's why it preys on my mind. I want to ask her about it but we're only casual acquaintances now and she's married. Also, it's been 14 years.

So I'm not gonna.

 

 

Literally nothing good can come of that.  In fact, you shouldn't even post about it on this forum. Most jurisdictions don't have a statute of limitations on sexual assault, so you really, really do not want her to decide that that was not in fact consent after contacting her and acknowledging the details. I would argue that it legally was consent, but you don't want to go through the ordeal of proving that in court.

[Kelli Fury]

Legally, nobody who is drunk can consent and case law does not uphold the notion of prior consent as continued consent. Terra's advice is wise advice because inebriation leaves a wide berth to say legal consent was not obtained, because strictly speaking, it wasn't.

[Inigima]

I am actually amazed drunken hookup culture still persists as strongly as it does. When intoxicated you aren't legally capable of informed consent. Which means that if you're sleeping with someone who's several drinks down, especially for the first time, you might be committing rape. And if that thought alone doesn't give you pause -- and I think it ought to -- the legal culpability should.

As others said, I don't really expect this behavior to change much. But I am more than a little surprised about it.

Edit: I expressed this sentiment elsewhere a few years ago and everyone was all, "Are you saying I'm a rapist? Well I never!" which, um, you kind of are. I understand that this behavior is pervasive and a normal, accepted feature of American nightlife. But I boggle at that fact.

[Datepalm]

Further fail on the social networking front, re Questionably Gay Peripatetic Economist Guy, whom I "uncontacted" on skype with no boldness or fanfare whatsoever, which at least got his name away from being in front of my face my whole working day. It was a good week, until a message popped up that he'd like to be my contact again. WHAT? Is this just an automatic thing, maybe? WHY AM I THINKING ABOUT THIS, could it please stop? Come on, brain. I haven't seen this guy in like six months now. Long enough, no? 

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I am actually amazed drunken hookup culture still persists as strongly as it does. When intoxicated you aren't legally capable of informed consent. Which means that if you're sleeping with someone who's several drinks down, especially for the first time, you might be committing rape. And if that thought alone doesn't give you pause -- and I think it ought to -- the legal culpability should.

As others said, I don't really expect this behavior to change much. But I am more than a little surprised about it.

Edit: I expressed this sentiment elsewhere a few years ago and everyone was all, "Are you saying I'm a rapist? Well I never!" which, um, you kind of are. I understand that this behavior is pervasive and a normal, accepted feature of American nightlife. But I boggle at that fact.

 

Is it really so surprising? Everyone knows that alcohol lowers inhibitions. I don't think it's a stretch to say that one of the many reasons that people drink, both men and women, in the first place is specifically to do so. People have been drinking and consenting to sex for forever. It's only recently that elite-level society has begun this 'course correction' on the interplay between alcohol use and sex and the reality is, you are still very, very unlikely to be even accused of rape even if you have sex with an intoxicated person. People who are mildly intoxicated are still able to consent to sex, and people who are seriously intoxicated and who may not 'legally' be able to consent to sex, are still often unlikely to consider sex that happens after their own voluntary intoxication to be rape, either because they are ashamed or feel guilty about it, or because, and I think this is pretty significant - because they actually wanted the sex to happen anyway.

 

Perhaps the absolute worst part of it is is that even though we know for a fact that the vast majority of rapes involve victims who engaged in voluntary intoxication, teaching potential victims not to drink to excess is not an accepted part of anti-rape curriculum because it's considered to be victim blaming.  

[ElizabethB.]

hat the vast majority of rapes involve victims who engaged in voluntary intoxication, teaching potential victims not to drink to excess is not an accepted part of anti-rape curriculum because it is victim blaming.

Fixed it!

[karaddin]

Because it is? Maybe after you've fixed the culture around rape apology and victim blaming you can return and try get people (and that's important, as soon as it's women and not men it's a problem) to drink less, but until then it's absolutely victim blaming and is used constantly to smear the victims at great harm to them, society and the prospect of justice.

ETA: Obviously directed at the same part of Nestor's post as Elizabeth is quoting, not at her.

[TerraPrime]

Potential legal culpability arising from having sex with someone who's intoxicated enough (drugs or alcohol) to not be able to give meaningful consent is really not the best motivation or rationale to give for not doing so. This is one area where I think what's legal and what's ethically right are not in 100% congruance. It goes without saying that people drink or take recreational drugs to alter their minds, whether be it to relax or to lower inhibition. Regardless of the reasons, the end result is that someone's mental faculty is altered and not functioning as normal. To obtain and accept consent, knowing that this is the case, is what I would consider to be a questionable act, when it comes to unfamiliar partners like in early dating. In other words, someone can consent, but given some circumstances, I am not going to accept that consent because I do not believe they offer that consent in a meaningful way. 

 

The reality, however, is that alcohol is just so universal in most social gatherings, and most (but not all) people can still give meaningful consent after one or two drinks. The development of hookup apps actually, I think, creates windows of opportunity for casual sex that does not revolve around drinking, and that's a good thing. 

[AndrewJ]

What if both people are very drunk? Have they both been raped? Can they both get the other person charged?

 

For the record, my wife and I do have sex after having a few drinks sometimes. I tend to drink more than her, so I'm probably a bit more drunk. So... I guess I'm being raped. And yet I'm quite quite okay with it.

[AverageGuy]

Can they both get the other person charged?

Yes. How that would play out with a judge/jury would be interesting.

[TerraPrime]

[mod hat]

 

I apologize for starting what has become a derailment. But let's try to keep the discussion on rape relevant to dating, and let's not go down the rabbit hole of discussing all the issues surrounding rape in this thread. Thank you. 

 

[/mod hat]

[The_BlauerDragon]

Well... Thanks to this thread I have now googled Milo Yiannopoulos and wasted some very precious brain cells while trying (and failing) to push my way through several of the linked articles and a Youtube video. I've also learned about unfollowing on FB (may need to use that), and I'll probably never be able to drink in public ever again due to the fear of accidentally hooking up with someone that got as drunk as me and then had second thoughts in the morning.

Still, I felt compelled to dig through this thread looking for some hidden gem of info on how to find love. I've been alone for so long now that I wonder if I am even still capable of having human to human relations with another actual living human anymore. It makes me feel better about myself when I can come here and see that I am not alone (in this regard, at least). Working the long hours that I work, and swing shifts at that, hasn't allowed me much time to get out and be social. Living in a small redneck town with 3 bars and no other forms of nightlife what-so-ever hasn't really helped much either. Prior to reading about the legal ramifications of it, socializing at bars was my go-to. It had mixed success, because I come out of my shell and become social and communal when drunk, but I also become even more oblivious to any signals or signs of interest when drunk. Drinking also has the added benefit of allowing me to be as shallow as I want to be. The ad agencies, porn, and television have managed to do a really bang-up job of warping my perception of beauty and making me overly critical of women's looks (though I do try to rebel against it), but they've not brainwashed me to the point of being able to find sex appeal in an empty shell. When I am sober, I lose all interest at the first sign of a mental deficiency or lack of intelligence. Crazy is fine by me, just not stupid. Maybe it is for the best that I am forced to drink at home these days. As I said, this is a small and exceptionally redneck town that I am in. I can't decide whether I'd have better luck at the meth-head biker bar attached to the bowling alley, the meth-head biker/cowboy bar attached to a hotel on the outskirts of town, or the meth-head cowboy bar attached to the hotel closer to the center of town... but those are my options. In any case, the odds of me running into people that have previously been inmates under my watch is just about 100%. So, that probably is not a wise idea.

 

That leaves me with the online options...
Has anyone found a truly good dating site? I'm almost to the point that I would even be willing to try out a pay site. I tried match and eharmony many years ago and have mental scars from the horrific results. I've done Zoosk, PlentyofFish, OkCupid, and about 6-7 others with no success what-so-ever. I'm thinking about trying one of the so-called Christian sites, or something like farmersonly, or... hell, I am even thinking about trying out sites like 2wives.com or sisterwives.com ...Not sure why I am thinking about those sites, perhaps it is that urge to generate offspring flaring up, and perhaps it is my usual intrinsic gravitation towards mates that are mentally unstable... I think it may be a bit of both. Is there a dating site specifically for men to find women that require high dosages of anti-psychotic medication in order to remain socially functional? I have a proven track record of being as attractive to those ladies as a fresh field of catnip is to the average feline. ...and they have a proven track record of being irresistible to me.