Bakker XLI Redux: Measure is Still Unceasing (And a date is revealed for The Great Ordeal)

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah what? I don't think I've ever clicked on TSA forum. If 'm going to be an ass I'll do it here and in public!

Seriously though, what toxic environment are we talking about here, I'm actually kind of confused now.

[Ser Drizztos]

Offends me? No. Not sure where you got that from. I’m just saying if you want to discuss the series either here or on TSA forum - despite the toxic environment -  (I’m assuming that you want to) then I don’t see why you’re “unable to do so.” You’ve put too much of a burden on yourself - for a year and a half now and another year and a half until TUC comes out...

But now that I think about it, why do I even care... O_o

It doesn't strike me as wise to hand out preview copies or drafts or whatever they call em to your most devoted disciples who run your fansites (which madness does AFAIK). That's what friends and family are for. Indeed, it seems excessively cruel to torment a man with such precious knowledge - unless, of course, that was the plan behind the bittersweet pact Bakker made with madness.

[jurble]

Well, no date is ever set in stone.

Numerous Classical Maya monuments would argue otherwise!

[Curethan]

Settle down DR, I'm not accusing you or anyone. Your implication was that toxicity towards out-groups (specifically TSA, in this instance) is mainly engendered by the fact that Bakker is an sock-puppeting arsehole. I found the irony too much, and just had to share.

[Madness]

Toxic environment? Yeah, cause Bakker himself didn't contribute to that AT ALL. *rolls eyes*

If he did, his contribution stopped when he stopped posting? The content of his few posts has been ignored in proportion to the ridicule that's been heaped onto his character or intent, which seems fairly strange given that we're all just assessing a set of texts after the fact.

Offends me? No. Not sure where you got that from. I’m just saying if you want to discuss the series either here or on TSA forum - despite the toxic environment -  (I’m assuming that you want to) then I don’t see why you’re “unable to do so.” You’ve put too much of a burden on yourself - for a year and a half now and another year and a half until TUC comes out...

But now that I think about it, why do I even care... O_o

Lol. Thanks? I'm only too happy to have had a chance to mid-wif the series, especially this portion, if it means that the published canon will yield more intense awe, wonder, and revelation. I'm willing to bet that the next volumes will convince that it's been easier for me to have not posted than tried to (and really I'll always have the friends I've made through this adventure).

It's kind of ironic to blame Bakker for the current environment. I suspect most of the current toxicity stems from one individual from Westeros sock-puppeting on TSA forum in order to troll - posting mainly about rape and semen, throwing out sexist comments and conducting bigoted rants in the quorum chat.

I mean, there's plenty of value for me in engaging many of the members here, but personally I find the volume of snippy, valueless replies and vapid in-group references from the hangers-on to be tiresome.  Always has been.

I suspect I know who you mean, Curethan, but you have the thumb of life or death on SA. Feel free to lay down the Banhammer.

It doesn't strike me as wise to hand out preview copies or drafts or whatever they call em to your most devoted disciples who run your fansites (which madness does AFAIK). That's what friends and family are for. Indeed, it seems excessively cruel to torment a man with such precious knowledge - unless, of course, that was the plan behind the bittersweet pact Bakker made with madness.

Lmao.

No such pact, Ser Drizztos. Mid-wifing is as close an understanding I can reach with this crux. I'm just a poor man's White Lord in terms of fandom, wherever WL is, and a writerly understudy. There's a whole thread about all this on SA - basically, I serve a purpose, above and beyond the usual draft-readers, in terms of specific canon errors, the game of clarity/ambiguity (or flags/sufficiency, as Bakker has written of elsewhere - what amounts to "this is what I got out of reading this" vs. "what Bakker intended to communicate in writing it"), and because he knows I'll be compelled to tell you how awesome everything is constantly ;).

[Darth Richard II]

Settle down DR, I'm not accusing you or anyone. Your implication was that toxicity towards out-groups (specifically TSA, in this instance) is mainly engendered by the fact that Bakker is an sock-puppeting arsehole. I found the irony too much, and just had to share.

Yeah er, that's not what I meant to imply. I am only barely aware that the other forum exists. I be quiet now.

[Ghjhero]

A fanatic, Ghjhero, nothing more. I took a creative writing course Bakker taught a number of years ago, became friends with an idol of mine, and have had the immense honour of helping mid-wif this story we all know and love. Or love to hate, depending on who you are among the Westerosi.

That's really cool! Thanks for sharing! 

[Ser Drizztos]

No such pact, Ser Drizztos. Mid-wifing is as close an understanding I can reach with this crux. I'm just a poor man's White Lord in terms of fandom, wherever WL is, and a writerly understudy. There's a whole thread about all this on SA - basically, I serve a purpose, above and beyond the usual draft-readers, in terms of specific canon errors, the game of clarity/ambiguity (or flags/sufficiency, as Bakker has written of elsewhere - what amounts to "this is what I got out of reading this" vs. "what Bakker intended to communicate in writing it"), and because he knows I'll be compelled to tell you how awesome everything is constantly ;).

That's cool. I was just alluding to the dilemma you face. You obviously don't want to spoil the story for people but also can't wait to discuss it to hell and back with the community - a dilemma that no doubt bids to tear your soul in twain.

[odium]

As someone who is newer to the fandom, could someone explain to me the reason behind the bad reputation Bakker has on the forum? Did he sockpuppet to discuss his own series or something?

[Darth Richard II]

As someone who is newer to the fandom, could someone explain to me the reason behind the bad reputation Bakker has on the forum? Did he sockpuppet to discuss his own series or something?

He did.

[sologdin]

does he have a bad reputation here?  We've had a dedicated thread, sometimes several parallel RSB threads, for a decade.  there is a hard core of his fans here.  RSB in-jokes penetrate deeply into other sub-fora; we even have a supergross word for it that some asshole coined.

[odium]

No, but it looks like there is apparently an old controversy concerning his presence here that makes me curious when I see it continually mentioned.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

does he have a bad reputation here?  We've had a dedicated thread, sometimes several parallel RSB threads, for a decade.  there is a hard core of his fans here.  RSB in-jokes penetrate deeply into other sub-fora; we even have a supergross word for it that some asshole coined.

Yea, there's a strong following here, its wherei was convinced to eevenread it. I think why people might sense some vitrol is others on the forum, who dont read Bakker, absloutely do not like the attention he gets around here. Its baffing to say the least.

[Darth Richard II]

It's not that baffling when you consider how much certain Bakker fans like to play martyr.

And for the record, I read Bakker because of these forums, it was in fact Curethan I believe who convinced me to read them way back.

No, but it looks like there is apparently an old controversy concerning his presence here that makes me curious when I see it continually mentioned.

It's a really old controversy. There are links in this thread back to old the old forums posts, or you could just ask kalbear.

 

 

[lokisnow]

No, but it looks like there is apparently an old controversy concerning his presence here that makes me curious when I see it continually mentioned.

He made three or four obtuse sockpuppet posts seven or eight years ago and people are still mad about.

Mostly he posted with a huge blindspot, he was cognitively incapable of admitting he was just as guilty as anyone else and couldn't wrap his head around the principle that stating awareness of issue x does not immediately grant stater full and perpetual immunity from said issue.

A few repetitive insistent posts of 'guys I ACKNOWLEDGE sexism/misogyny is a problem, therefore I am now proven the most feminist person ever,' got old real quick.

[Darth Richard II]

I was not around, but it was my impression there were more than 3 or 4 posts. Although maybe it was just 3 or 4 posts before he was outed? I dunno. I'm probably just being a grump.

[kuenjato]

I was not around, but it was my impression there were more than 3 or 4 posts. Although maybe it was just 3 or 4 posts before he was outed? I dunno. I'm probably just being a grump.

No, it wasn't very many -- he was outed pretty quickly. His attempt to justify was pretty lame. But this was, like, in 2009.

RSB is somewhat unorthodox in his interpretation of feminism, which tends to rile up certain people around here, hence the on-again, off-again slagfest stemming from ~ Bakker and Women threads from 6-7 years ago. The criticism sometimes gets petulant and/or obsessive-compulsive, which is what Madness is referring to when he declares westeros a 'toxic environment.'

RSB is the most talked about author on this website, not including GRRM, and that probably annoys certain people who do not like his style or online persona. More importantly, this site also catalogues probably the most valuable and insightful, if sometimes cryptic or crackpottery, discussion of his works. 

 

 

[Hello World]

He made two "sock-puppet" posts then revealed who he was in the third one and continued to post afterwards. The sock-puppet thing was childish more than anything else.

[Darth Richard II]

I know some people were uh, not pleased with some of his recent, uh, blog and social media, uh, fights. More than that I don't think I can say without breaking forum rules but if you don't know what I'm referring to, be glad.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Darth, I dont understand your martyr comment. I mean people that frequent these threads have a immense love for the series. But, as far as Bakker and what he does in his life concerns me in the least. When someone is a advocate for the series it doesn't make them a martyr, they're simply a fan. And your statement illustrates my point, would you accuse martyrdom of a fan of Abercrombie, Martin, Rothfuss or any other writer, when they're simply advocating a series they enjoy? Yea, you get some Bakakke from Solo and Larry in some other threads, but its all in good fun. And you know, its OK to not think the series or Bakker as a writer are not any good, no big deal. To each his own. 

So you've accused "certain" Bakker fans of being a martyr. A few pages ago you said many of us like Bakker a little too much. Who's the one with the problem here? Its seems like its you, you come to this thread to offer your opinions on how we like Bakker a little too much. Oh, and the scandalous sock-puppet incident of 09'. And, you say you read the series, yet I've never, not once, seen you contribute to the discussion of the books. Which is all we're doing here, not trying to covert anyone to Inrithism or anything. Hey man, sorry its something we enjoy and look forward to the completion of. I'm sure you have a series out there that you feel the same way about. Does that make you a martyr or your liking them is a bit too much? Kinda silly, no?