How did they know it was Rhaegar who kidnapped Lyanna?

[Arrow of the Morning]

 

Regarding the World book, we should bear in mind that when it comes to the events surrounding Robert's Rebellion, Yandel isn't the most truthful source. What with his bold "Princess Elia probably smashed her son's head against a wall, stabbed her daughter forty times, and then raped and killed herself, because she feared something nasty might be done to them" theory.

So I say we didn't lose much. Even if Yandel gave us a very detailed account of the events, what are the odds that it wouldn't be complete BS?

Yandel is not neutral, but we can guess his intentions and know what information is more trustworthy. First, he wrote the book to Joffrey, and did it to gain the favor of the king and the royal family, so he would not say something that could stain the image of Robert or Tywin Lannister. That is why he said the murder of Elia and her children as something made by Aerys's men or unnamed soldiers wanting to gain Robert's favor and acted by themselves. He could had written about the rumors that Ser Gregor Clegane murdered Elia and Aegon, that Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys, all by Tywin command.

He also described Lyanna Stark in a really unfavorable way, saying she was "wild and childish". We know she was beautiful, but if someone who doesn't know that read what Yandel wrote he would not know that. His objective here, probably,  is to decrease Lyanna's image to please Cersei, decreasing her qualities. So Yandel had no reason to paint Lyanna in a favorable way. If he knew that Lyanna fled with Rhaegar he would have no reason to hide this. Such action (breaking a betrothal and fleeing with a married man), would be seeing as a very selfish and dishonorable and too important to be omitted; Yandel would have no reason to do that. So he probably said Lyanna was kidnap because it is the accepted version of what happened with her. 

[Sly Wren]

Yandel is not neutral, but we can guess his intentions and know what information is more trustworthy. First, he wrote the book to Joffrey, and did it to gain the favor of the king and the royal family, so he would not say something that could stain the image of Robert or Tywin Lannister. That is why he said the murder of Elia and her children as something made by Aerys's men or unnamed soldiers wanting to gain Robert's favor and acted by themselves. He could had written about the rumors that Ser Gregor Clegane murdered Elia and Aegon, that Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys, all by Tywin command.

He also described Lyanna Stark in a really unfavorable way, saying she was "wild and childish". We know she was beautiful, but if someone who doesn't know that read what Yandel wrote he would not know that. His objective here, probably,  is to decrease Lyanna's image to please Cersei, decreasing her qualities. So Yandel had no reason to paint Lyanna in a favorable way. If he knew that Lyanna fled with Rhaegar he would have no reason to hide this. Such action (breaking a betrothal and fleeing with a married man), would be seeing as a very selfish and dishonorable and too important to be omitted; Yandel would have no reason to do that. So he probably said Lyanna was kidnap because it is the accepted version of what happened with her. 

Agreed--though if he'd given more of the story, we might have been able to figure out what rings true and what doesn't. As it is, per the OP--we don't know how anyone "knows" Rhaegar took Lyanna.

We only have echoes in the books--with Arya and Sansa, and with Cat's taking of Tyrion. None of those situations is particularly romantic--mostly messy and terrifying. 

One thing Yandel does give us, though, oddly--the list of places Rhaegar wasn't. What he wasn't doing, vs. what he was. An odd way to write the book. . . seems to suggest Rhaegar was doing something else "important" enough to keep him from the "Banish the Cold" effort in King's Landing. Or playing peak-a-boo with new baby Aegon, having tea parties with Rhaenys. 

Maybe. . . . How that might directly or indirectly tie into taking Lyanna? 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Agreed--though if he'd given more of the story, we might have been able to figure out what rings true and what doesn't. As it is, per the OP--we don't know how anyone "knows" Rhaegar took Lyanna.

We only have echoes in the books--with Arya and Sansa, and with Cat's taking of Tyrion. None of those situations is particularly romantic--mostly messy and terrifying. 

One thing Yandel does give us, though, oddly--the list of places Rhaegar wasn't. What he wasn't doing, vs. what he was. An odd way to write the book. . . seems to suggest Rhaegar was doing something else "important" enough to keep him from the "Banish the Cold" effort in King's Landing. Or playing peak-a-boo with new baby Aegon, having tea parties with Rhaenys. 

Maybe. . . . How that might directly or indirectly tie into taking Lyanna? 

After the World book, I tend to find more likely a scenario where they meet on an un/lucky coincidence. The wording "Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell" implies a chance meeting and, the existence of details (it seems that the exact location of the incident is generally known) implies that there were indeed eye witnesses of the incident. Of course it may be a rare case of trully, sincerely, not being what it looks like, but the crowning precedence was condemning...

The hypothesis that IMO offers the best fitting for the existing pieces of the puzzle (characters' depicted personalities included) is that she saw something, like a meeting of Rhaegar with a/some riverlord(s), one that would mark them as traitors and endanger everyone of them. So she had to be taken away for everyone's safety, because why would anyone entrust their life, family and House future in a girl's word that she wouldn't tell? In that sense, it was for her own safety too, as it's not certain how a paniked riverlord would react. (This scenario is also mirroring Jon and Ygritte's first meeting - only Jon's group did not have the option to take captives.) But, they were seen (maybe Lyanna tried to escape? perhaps even playfully, thinking it as a game/adventure? getting to wild speculation so let's leave it to just "they were seen") so Rhaegar had to go hiding as well. Everything else evolved from there to what most of us suspect is a love/infatuation story. The fact that they had met before, and, quite likely, had made an impression to each other, only helps the specific decision-making and the subsequent developement.

 

As for Yandel, he seemed to me quite a Rhaegar fanboy, and in the same time cautious of the Lannisters. He didn't seem, to me, that he particularly cared to please Robert as a person - it's more like he's the Lannister access to the Throne and accordingly he should be treated in a way as to not offend/put in question their legitimacy as royalty.

(ETA, or maybe he might be a genuine Tywin fanboy too; Paycelle might not be unique in that, perhaps it's a Citadelle thing after all, their ideal of ruler embodied by Tywin.  )

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Yandel is not neutral, but we can guess his intentions and know what information is more trustworthy. First, he wrote the book to Joffrey, and did it to gain the favor of the king and the royal family, so he would not say something that could stain the image of Robert or Tywin Lannister. That is why he said the murder of Elia and her children as something made by Aerys's men or unnamed soldiers wanting to gain Robert's favor and acted by themselves. He could had written about the rumors that Ser Gregor Clegane murdered Elia and Aegon, that Amory Lorch killed Rhaenys, all by Tywin command.

He also described Lyanna Stark in a really unfavorable way, saying she was "wild and childish". We know she was beautiful, but if someone who doesn't know that read what Yandel wrote he would not know that. His objective here, probably,  is to decrease Lyanna's image to please Cersei, decreasing her qualities. So Yandel had no reason to paint Lyanna in a favorable way. If he knew that Lyanna fled with Rhaegar he would have no reason to hide this. Such action (breaking a betrothal and fleeing with a married man), would be seeing as a very selfish and dishonorable and too important to be omitted; Yandel would have no reason to do that. So he probably said Lyanna was kidnap because it is the accepted version of what happened with her. 

Oh, it is the accepted version of the events, that's without question. And if that's the history as approved by Robert, then that's what Yandel will write. Robert was the originator of the new royal dynasty, and straying from the Robert-approved account of the events would mean leaving the comfortable position right inside the royal arse. Whenever he strays from the truth, it's to make everyone on the winning side look better: Stark, Baratheon, Lannister. Now: let's assume for the sake of the argument that Lyanna did, in fact, run away on her own. Does it make the rebels look better? Nope. And if not, then the truth would be of no use for our valiant historian.

And I doubt he was aware of the seriousness of the rivalry between Cersei and the deceased Lyanna. He most certainly wouldn't know that Bob blurted out the wrong name on the wedding night.

(And calling her "wild and boyish" - not childish - wasn't terribly insulting. Quite accurate, actually).

[purple-eyes]

After the World book, I tend to find more likely a scenario where they meet on an un/lucky coincidence. The wording "Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell" implies a chance meeting and, the existence of details (it seems that the exact location of the incident is generally known) implies that there were indeed eye witnesses of the incident. Of course it may be a rare case of trully, sincerely, not being what it looks like, but the crowning precedence was condemning...

The hypothesis that IMO offers the best fitting for the existing pieces of the puzzle (characters' depicted personalities included) is that she saw something, like a meeting of Rhaegar with a/some riverlord(s), one that would mark them as traitors and endanger everyone of them. So she had to be taken away for everyone's safety, because why would anyone entrust their life, family and House future in a girl's word that she wouldn't tell? In that sense, it was for her own safety too, as it's not certain how a paniked riverlord would react. (This scenario is also mirroring Jon and Ygritte's first meeting - only Jon's group did not have the option to take captives.) But, they were seen (maybe Lyanna tried to escape? perhaps even playfully, thinking it as a game/adventure? getting to wild speculation so let's leave it to just "they were seen") so Rhaegar had to go hiding as well. Everything else evolved from there to what most of us suspect is a love/infatuation story. The fact that they had met before, and, quite likely, had made an impression to each other, only helps the specific decision-making and the subsequent developement.

 

As for Yandel, he seemed to me quite a Rhaegar fanboy, and in the same time cautious of the Lannisters. He didn't seem, to me, that he particularly cared to please Robert as a person - it's more like he's the Lannister access to the Throne and accordingly he should be treated in a way as to not offend/put in question their legitimacy as royalty.

(ETA, or maybe he might be a genuine Tywin fanboy too; Paycelle might not be unique in that, perhaps it's a Citadelle thing after all, their ideal of ruler embodied by Tywin.  )

yandel did not paint lyanna in negative way. It is one council member of aerys who said this after crowning. It was his original quote which was likely recorded by maester for each council meeting. 

He also said lyanna is wild and boyish by all accounts. So it is not his own opinion. 

[John Suburbs]

After the World book, I tend to find more likely a scenario where they meet on an un/lucky coincidence. The wording "Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell" implies a chance meeting and, the existence of details (it seems that the exact location of the incident is generally known) implies that there were indeed eye witnesses of the incident. Of course it may be a rare case of trully, sincerely, not being what it looks like, but the crowning precedence was condemning...

The hypothesis that IMO offers the best fitting for the existing pieces of the puzzle (characters' depicted personalities included) is that she saw something, like a meeting of Rhaegar with a/some riverlord(s), one that would mark them as traitors and endanger everyone of them. So she had to be taken away for everyone's safety, because why would anyone entrust their life, family and House future in a girl's word that she wouldn't tell? In that sense, it was for her own safety too, as it's not certain how a paniked riverlord would react. (This scenario is also mirroring Jon and Ygritte's first meeting - only Jon's group did not have the option to take captives.) But, they were seen (maybe Lyanna tried to escape? perhaps even playfully, thinking it as a game/adventure? getting to wild speculation so let's leave it to just "they were seen") so Rhaegar had to go hiding as well. Everything else evolved from there to what most of us suspect is a love/infatuation story. The fact that they had met before, and, quite likely, had made an impression to each other, only helps the specific decision-making and the subsequent developement.

 

As for Yandel, he seemed to me quite a Rhaegar fanboy, and in the same time cautious of the Lannisters. He didn't seem, to me, that he particularly cared to please Robert as a person - it's more like he's the Lannister access to the Throne and accordingly he should be treated in a way as to not offend/put in question their legitimacy as royalty.

(ETA, or maybe he might be a genuine Tywin fanboy too; Paycelle might not be unique in that, perhaps it's a Citadelle thing after all, their ideal of ruler embodied by Tywin.  )

Now that's an interesting thought: it wasn't Rhaegar who came upon Lyanna in the woods but Lyanna who came upon Rhaegar and his conspirators.

[Sly Wren]

After the World book, I tend to find more likely a scenario where they meet on an un/lucky coincidence. The wording "Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell" implies a chance meeting and, the existence of details (it seems that the exact location of the incident is generally known) implies that there were indeed eye witnesses of the incident. Of course it may be a rare case of trully, sincerely, not being what it looks like, but the crowning precedence was condemning...

The hypothesis that IMO offers the best fitting for the existing pieces of the puzzle (characters' depicted personalities included) is that she saw something, like a meeting of Rhaegar with a/some riverlord(s), one that would mark them as traitors and endanger everyone of them. So she had to be taken away for everyone's safety, because why would anyone entrust their life, family and House future in a girl's word that she wouldn't tell? In that sense, it was for her own safety too, as it's not certain how a paniked riverlord would react. (This scenario is also mirroring Jon and Ygritte's first meeting - only Jon's group did not have the option to take captives.) But, they were seen (maybe Lyanna tried to escape? perhaps even playfully, thinking it as a game/adventure? getting to wild speculation so let's leave it to just "they were seen") so Rhaegar had to go hiding as well. Everything else evolved from there to what most of us suspect is a love/infatuation story. The fact that they had met before, and, quite likely, had made an impression to each other, only helps the specific decision-making and the subsequent developement.

Workable. But, if we're playing the very tenuous game (which we seem to be doing on this thread. . ) of "how does this fit the echoes in the book"--if the story did parallel Ygritte, seems like Rhaegar might have been caught up with Lyanna's people, not the other way around.  As Jon gets caught up with Ygritte's.

Whereas, both of Lyanna's echoes in the book--Sansa and Arya--end up with people who say they will help them get home or to safety, (Dontos, Littlefinger, the Tyrells for Sansa; Yoren and the Brotherhood and the Hound for Arya), but they have their own motive,s agendas, and priorities. Sansa's line to Littlefinger--"you played me false. You said you were taking me home" (something like that)--seems like it could be an echo of Lyanna. The whole country's gone BOOM! And getting Lyanna home (like getting Sansa or Arya home) is a LOT more complicated. . . 

But the idea that this might have been a kidnapping that turned into a rescue or vice-versa? That she's being kept for her protection? And it all ballooned out of control? Yeah--that fits with the echoes in the text--I think. 

And I agree on the chance meeting--fits with Cat's taking of Tyrion, of Sansa and Joff's chancing on Arya and Mycah. Of Yoren's being there in the nick of time for Arya, etc.

[Isobel Harper]

It's odd that, after the tourney, Brandon headed back north (he was coming south on the Kingsroad to his wedding at Riverrun when he heard the news), while Ned and Robert were back in the Vale with Jon Arryn (at least, that's where they were when Brandon and Rickard were killed), which means Lyanna (and possibly Benjen, who spent the war at Winterfell but could have stayed behind after the tourney) remained at Harrenhall all alone. Why? As far as I can tell, there are no family connections between the Starks and the Whents, so there had to be a reason why all the males in the family would depart without the only daughter of Lord Rickard.

It also seems odd to me that either Lyanna is out riding in the woods a good 30 miles from the castle all alone, in which case how did Rhaegar ever find her, or she was travelling to Riverrun herself without a substantial guard -- at least 20 men.

To me, the most logical conclusion was that it was not an abduction, but either an elopement or a rescue, if Rhaegar knew that his father had figured out who the KotLT was and had put a price on her head.

I proposed in a previous thread (which I think got deleted with the new forum) that Lyanna was arrested by Aerys, and Rhaegar saved her from the party that arrested her while they were en route to KL.  Witnesses who later saw Rhaegar and Lyanna together would not have known differentiated the two events (Lyanna taken in + seen riding with Rhaegar) because Aerys and Rhaegar flew the same banners.

But Martin's given us a template for it in the current story--Cat's abduction of Tyrion. In the Inn at the Crossroads--in the Riverlands, not many leagues from Harrenhal.

Cat calls on the bannermen present, bannermen to her father, to help her seize Tyrion and take him to await the king's justice.

Rhaegar's father has ALL of the bannermen--and it might help explain why Brandon ran to King's Landing instead of Dragonstone. If he thought that's where Lyanna had been taken. But, like Cat didn't go to Winterfell but to her sister's--the Eyrie with its white stone towers--perhaps Rhaegar went not to King's Landing, but to the stronghold of his bestie bro--Starfall, with its white stone towers. . . 

Given the kidnapping incident and Sansa and Arya's miserable experiences near the Inn--all of which happen in Game--seems like there's at least a chance Martin's giving us a few hints.

Though the hints don't solve the whole puzzle. . . grumble, grumble. 

Or possibly something like this.  Rush to Lyanna and "arrest" her before Aerys does (so as to make the deed not look like treason, as preventing a criminal from being arrested by the King would be treason), but truly rescue her from being arrested by Aerys in the first place.  Then, bring her to a place where Aerys can't find her, by the time the rescue is discovered.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Rhaegar left KL with six companions and I doubt they all went to the Riverlands to rescue/get Lyanna Stark. There is no real evidence to prove that Rhaegar's intentions in the Riverlands were anything but political.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

yandel did not paint lyanna in negative way. It is one council member of aerys who said this after crowning. It was his original quote which was likely recorded by maester for each council meeting. 

He also said lyanna is wild and boyish by all accounts. So it is not his own opinion. 

I am not talking about how he portrays Lyanna, but my general take about his stance throughout "his work", and especially about the way he depicts Rhaegar, as I see it.

 

Workable. But, if we're playing the very tenuous game (which we seem to be doing on this thread. . ) of "how does this fit the echoes in the book"--if the story did parallel Ygritte, seems like Rhaegar might have been caught up with Lyanna's people, not the other way around.  As Jon gets caught up with Ygritte's.

...

And I agree on the chance meeting--fits with Cat's taking of Tyrion, of Sansa and Joff's chancing on Arya and Mycah. Of Yoren's being there in the nick of time for Arya, etc.

I think that in the Jon/Ygritte story, Jon echoes both his parents, at times. At times, the parallel inverts the roles of the male and female parts. And I think it's also interesting that Jon is both the theaf and the stolen, and that he is the 'maiden' of the story.

I agree a lot with the Catnapping parallel, in fact I believe that the Catnapping might be the repeat of the particular instance of history as a farce (and a tragedy, both). I like the possibility of the Crossroads Inn too - I have a feeling that it might be central to R+L story as well.

 

Rhaegar left KL with six companions and I doubt they all went to the Riverlands to rescue/get Lyanna Stark. There is no real evidence to prove that Rhaegar's intentions in the Riverlands were anything but political.

I agree, after reading the World book I am certain that this is the case.

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree, after reading the World book I am certain that this is the case.

 

I think Lyanna, is an special case of red herring. If there is a name for this trope, I don't know it.

I mean, Rhaegar had political intentions. The book does more than hint it. The fact Lyanna is involved is, imo, a coincidence planted by Martin to make us believe Rhaegar acted based on a prophecy that fulfilled itself while making us ignore him as a political man who wanted to remove his father not only due to the threat of the Others coming but because he was indeed crazy.

And at the end, Lyanna became important despite not being Rhaegar's original intention to have a child with her and had to make changes to his plans because he indeed cared for Lyanna and wanted to protect them both her and his child.

Because, really, what sounds more like Martin's writing? That Rhaegar planned it all including Lyanna's pregnancy to fulfil his prophecy and everything happened as planned or Rhaegar actually making plans to remove his father, rally men to his favour and save Westeros from the Others but then all of that went to hell after he met a women and fell in love?

 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I think Lyanna, is an special case of red herring. If there is a name for this trope, I don't know it.

I mean, Rhaegar had political intentions. The book does more than hint it. The fact Lyanna is involved is, imo, a coincidence planted by Martin to make us believe Rhaegar acted based on a prophecy that fulfilled itself while making us ignore him as a political man who wanted to remove his father not only due to the threat of the Others coming but because he was indeed crazy.

And at the end, Lyanna became important despite not being Rhaegar's original intention to have a child with her and had to make changes to his plans because he indeed cared for Lyanna and wanted to protect them both her and his child.

Because, really, what sounds more like Martin's writing? That Rhaegar planned it all including Lyanna's pregnancy to fulfil his prophecy and everything happened as planned or Rhaegar actually making plans to remove his father, rally men to his favour and save Westeros from the Others but then all of that went to hell after he met a women and fell in love?

I see what you're saying and I agree about Martin's way wrt prophecy.

But I am not sure that the prophecy angle was meant as a distruction of sorts; prophecy-obsessed Rhaegar is one of the popular explanations, but not the most widely accepted one. I mean, although there is evidence that Rhaegar was motivated by his prophecy-related beliefs in various aspects, there is nothing to paint him as a Melisandre kind of person, fanatic and willing to compromise and even sacrifice everything and everyone in order to fulfill a prophecy; on the contrary, we have additional evidence of him being dutiful, and scholarly inclined and (by the World book) political. Btw, "scholarly inclined" would point at also being aware about the nature of prophecies and the vanity of chasing them. In fact, I would think that changing his opinion about who might fulfill the PTWP prophecy could be an indication that he is not totally fixated to his ideas to the degree of compromising the peace and prosperity of the whole realm.

So personally I never bought the prophecy explanation, and before the World book I tended towards the love struck "Romeo & Juliette" motives for R+L, and I'd place the incident in the blurry area in between kidnapping and elopement. The 'madly in love' explanation also has its holes but at least it's much closer to the common human experience and understanding. Because people do commit stupid and out of character actions for infatuation/love, we've all been there to some degree. That's also the readon that, IMO, variations of this scenario are the most popular explanations so far.

But I think that the new political angle offered by the World book opens for better (more logical, making more sense plot-wise, character-wise and in narrative/symbolic terms) explanations, that also have the advantage of not requiring to dismiss / ditch away as "a lie" any of the existing information; it only requires to redefine the related meanings, reasonings, and placements into the narrative.

[princess_snow]

But Martin's given us a template for it in the current story--Cat's abduction of Tyrion. In the Inn at the Crossroads--in the Riverlands, not many leagues from Harrenhal.

Cat calls on the bannermen present, bannermen to her father, to help her seize Tyrion and take him to await the king's justice.

Rhaegar's father has ALL of the bannermen--and it might help explain why Brandon ran to King's Landing instead of Dragonstone. If he thought that's where Lyanna had been taken. But, like Cat didn't go to Winterfell but to her sister's--the Eyrie with its white stone towers--perhaps Rhaegar went not to King's Landing, but to the stronghold of his bestie bro--Starfall, with its white stone towers. . . 

Given the kidnapping incident and Sansa and Arya's miserable experiences near the Inn--all of which happen in Game--seems like there's at least a chance Martin's giving us a few hints.

Though the hints don't solve the whole puzzle. . . grumble, grumble. 

This is my first post ! Yes Sly Wren, I had not considered this. Very interesting !  

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I think Lyanna, is an special case of red herring. If there is a name for this trope, I don't know it.

I mean, Rhaegar had political intentions. The book does more than hint it. The fact Lyanna is involved is, imo, a coincidence planted by Martin to make us believe Rhaegar acted based on a prophecy that fulfilled itself while making us ignore him as a political man who wanted to remove his father not only due to the threat of the Others coming but because he was indeed crazy.

And at the end, Lyanna became important despite not being Rhaegar's original intention to have a child with her and had to make changes to his plans because he indeed cared for Lyanna and wanted to protect them both her and his child.

Because, really, what sounds more like Martin's writing? That Rhaegar planned it all including Lyanna's pregnancy to fulfil his prophecy and everything happened as planned or Rhaegar actually making plans to remove his father, rally men to his favour and save Westeros from the Others but then all of that went to hell after he met a women and fell in love?

That's more or less my take. Rhaegar was doing Stuff (to be disclosed), while out of the blue Lyanna decided to pull an Alys Karstark, asked him for protection, and he decided to do the gallant thing and not turn her over to her family. In effect, life got (more) complicated, completely different Stuff occurred, and a year later, the Trident and the Tower of Joy.

[Geddus]

The question is, why did not rhaegar ask arthur and whent to kidnap lyanna? Why did himself need to show his face and reveal himself? I am pretty sure arthur and whent can defeat whatever guard lyanna had. 

Maybe he wanted to avoid bloodshed, I don't think Lyanna's guards would fight the crown prince.

[sweetsunray]

im mostly with you, except with the bolded, its a bit of nitpicking, but since the current generation of Starks had a septa it isn't far fetched to think that rickard had one to teach Lyanna about courtesy, after all she was promised to a sourthern lord.. 

Unlikely though. For example, before Ned was wedded to Catelyn there wasn't even a sept at WF. So, despite the arranged betrothal of Brandon and Catelyn, no sept was built at WF. Ned sanctioned that after he was wed already and lord. And then we have the stories of Lyanna riding the rills like a centaur too. So, no I doubt Rickard would have hired a septa for Lyanna. Let's also not forget that the betrothal is arranged when Lyanna is around 13. Robert's parents were already dead and he had fathered Mya already when the betrothal was made. Bringing in a septa to teach a 13 year old when she's been without one  all her previous life seems illogical. 

[Sly Wren]

Or possibly something like this.  Rush to Lyanna and "arrest" her before Aerys does (so as to make the deed not look like treason, as preventing a criminal from being arrested by the King would be treason), but truly rescue her from being arrested by Aerys in the first place.  Then, bring her to a place where Aerys can't find her, by the time the rescue is discovered.

Agreed. Aerys put Rhaegar in a really tough spot. Plus we've got the echo of Aerys in Cersei-the-Targ-wannabe. And Cersei wanted Arya maimed (!!!!) and was only stopped because someone else found Arya before Jaime did.

When Arya and Sansa are dragged before the inept king and his wannabe-Targ vicious queen, the wrong wolf is killed for a crime no one commits. Ned hears echoes of Lyanna in Sansa's pleas. So, the idea that we're getting a hint doesn't seem completely insane.

Seems like that scene might be an echo of Aerys' actions towards the Starks--killing Brandon and Rickard. . . massive over-reaction just because he can. . .

This is my first post ! Yes Sly Wren, I had not considered this. Very interesting !  

Welcome, welcome!!! And cheers!

[Sly Wren]

I agree a lot with the Catnapping parallel, in fact I believe that the Catnapping might be the repeat of the particular instance of history as a farce (and a tragedy, both). I like the possibility of the Crossroads Inn too - I have a feeling that it might be central to R+L story as well.

Agreed!

I think that in the Jon/Ygritte story, Jon echoes both his parents, at times. At times, the parallel inverts the roles of the male and female parts. And I think it's also interesting that Jon is both the theaf and the stolen, and that he is the 'maiden' of the story.

Agreed--Jon echoes Lyanna in the scene where he defends Sam when Sam first gets to the Watch. As does Arya's defense of Mycah. And arguably Sansa's defense of Dontos.

One thing on the Ygritte parallel, though. The Leader/Bard figure in the scenario is Mance. He's in charge, but he does not instigate the "kidnapping" of Jon. And he's not the lover. The lover/spouse is the warrior/follower/devotee of the Leader/Bard--Ygritte.

And in the kidnapping at the Inn, the bard isn't the perpetrator, either. He's just a witness who goes along.

The strongest echo is in the scene where Marillion tells Sansa, who's all dressed in blue, that he's writing a song for her called the Roadside Rose. A stolen Stark bride, all in blue, being given unwanted attention by a bard who calls her a rose--if that isn't a Rhaegar/Lyanna echo, I don't know what is.

But again, Marillion ends up the witness. The bard/witness who's forced to take the fall for what the schemer-in-power does. And dies for his "guilt." Still singing.

I am still not sure what to do with all of this.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As for Yandel, he seemed to me quite a Rhaegar fanboy, and in the same time cautious of the

Lannisters

. He didn't seem, to me, that he particularly cared to please Robert as a

person

 - it's more like he's the Lannister access to the Throne and accordingly he should be treated in a way as to not offend/put in question their legitimacy as royalty.

(ETA, or maybe he might be a genuine Tywin fanboy too; Paycelle might not be unique in that, perhaps it's a Citadelle thing after all, their ideal of ruler embodied by Tywin.  )

I guess is more a case of Yandel's source in KL being Pycelle, and he was the Tywin fanboy.

Also, I suppose Yandel is smart enough to realise that offending the Martells isn't as bad as offending Tywin Lannister.

But I am not sure that the prophecy angle was meant as a distruction of sorts; prophecy-obsessed Rhaegar is one of the popular explanations, but not the most widely accepted one. I mean, although there is evidence that Rhaegar was motivated by his prophecy-related beliefs in various aspects, there is nothing to paint him as a Melisandre kind of person, fanatic and willing to compromise and even sacrifice everything and everyone in order to fulfill a prophecy; on the contrary, we have additional evidence of him being dutiful, and scholarly inclined and (by the World book) political. Btw, "scholarly inclined" would point at also being aware about the nature of prophecies and the vanity of chasing them. In fact, I would think that changing his opinion about who might fulfill the PTWP prophecy could be an indication that he is not totally fixated to his ideas to the degree of compromising the peace and prosperity of the whole realm.

I agree with this. there is no evidence that Rhaegar was "obsessed" about the prophecy, only worried about it. Nevertheless, his main worry during the last days of the Targaryens seemed to have been political issues.

That's more or less my take. Rhaegar was doing Stuff (to be disclosed), while out of the blue Lyanna decided to pull an Alys Karstark, asked him for protection, and he decided to do the gallant thing and not turn her over to her family. In effect, life got (more) complicated, completely different Stuff occurred, and a year later, the Trident and the Tower of Joy.

Could be, but I don't think it was that much romantic and I think Lyanna was indeed planning to marry Robert. But somehow, Rhaegar's penis happened. 

[Julia H.]

 

I think that in the Jon/Ygritte story, Jon echoes both his parents, at times. At times, the parallel inverts the roles of the male and female parts. And I think it's also interesting that Jon is both the theaf and the stolen, and that he is the 'maiden' of the story.

 

I think in the Ygritte - Jon version of the Bael the Bard story, it is definitely Ygritte who plays the role of Bael, while Jon is "the blue flower of Winterfell", so to speak, playing the same role as Lyanna did. Ygritte protects Jon when Mance (the "king") summons Jon and interrogates him about the Night's Watch ranging and the information Jon has kept secret. This may also be an echo of the Rhaegar - Lyanna story in which Lyanna was (perhaps) summoned by Aerys. In both cases, the protector and the protected end up as lovers. In the case of Jon and Ygritte, at first they lie about their relationship  even though there is genuine attraction between them. Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been believed to be lovers even before they became lovers.

 

Later, however, when Jon is tormented by guilt, and he compares himself to his father (meaning Eddard), the hidden reference is probably to Rhaegar, who may have felt similar guilt perhaps. In the end, it is Jon who leaves Ygritte to return to his people (not vice versa), so by then he seems to have taken over the role of Bael, and also the role of Rhaegar, who had to leave Lyanna and fight for his family. 

Agreed!

Agreed--Jon echoes Lyanna in the scene where he defends Sam when Sam first gets to the Watch. As does Arya's defense of Mycah. And arguably Sansa's defense of Dontos.

One thing on the Ygritte parallel, though. The Leader/Bard figure in the scenario is Mance. He's in charge, but he does not instigate the "kidnapping" of Jon. And he's not the lover. The lover/spouse is the warrior/follower/devotee of the Leader/Bard--Ygritte.

And in the kidnapping at the Inn, the bard isn't the perpetrator, either. He's just a witness who goes along.

The strongest echo is in the scene where Marillion tells Sansa, who's all dressed in blue, that he's writing a song for her called the Roadside Rose. A stolen Stark bride, all in blue, being given unwanted attention by a bard who calls her a rose--if that isn't a Rhaegar/Lyanna echo, I don't know what is.

But again, Marillion ends up the witness. The bard/witness who's forced to take the fall for what the schemer-in-power does. And dies for his "guilt." Still singing.

I am still not sure what to do with all of this.

If the bard and the warrior are separate, and Rhaegar is only the bard, then who is the warrior, a follower / devotee of the bard, I wonder?  Shall we imagine him with a sword in his hand?

 

Bael the bard was also a warrior though and a king. (So is Mance, of course.) Ygritte is a warrior, but she also has some aspects of a bard: she tells Jon the story of Bael and the winter rose, and she occasionally sings. She is also associated with fire, just like Rhaegar, who was also both a (royal) warrior and a bard. Perhaps Mance's role in this is to make the reference to Rhaegar a bit more obvious, as it may be obscured by the gender reversal. Mance symbolically "stands behind" Ygritte as a reminder that we should recall a certain "bard - warrior - prospective king" associated with fire when we look at this young wildling woman. 

I'm not sure how to interpret the Marrillion motif. It does sound like a Rhaegar / Lyanna or Bael the bard reference, but the characters seem to be ... false. Actually that may be the point here.