Islam and the West, fundamentally incompatible?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Notone,

I'm Orthodox.  What I'm saying is what we are taught about scripture.  We are not and never have been a "Sola Scriptura" Church.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Ah ok, my bad. I assumed you were probably protestant. I am not that familar with the Orthodox Church, apart from from the importance of Icons. So that is then "Prima scriptura"? Anyway, the sola scriptura part is really not your problem, then. That's more of a problem for the self-identified protestants, well at least for a good part of them.

 

Anyway, the point I tried to make, that women's rights and democracy are not inherently Christian values, remains relatively untouched by it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Notone,

Yes, we are Prima Scriptura.  

[Dofs]

Notone,

You are making a classic mistake by citing OT laws as something that the Christians have to follow, assuming that because they are in the Bible, then they are Christian rules. And this is completely false. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

*sigh*

Back in a time far, far away. Those rules were in very likely to be laws, which guided everyday life in Jerusalem. Granted it's been a while since Jews and Christians had the idea that stoning a woman which was unfaithful to her husband was the appropriate punishment. Though I would reverse cause and effect there. It were probably laws that guided everyday life some millenia ago, whose origin in order to give it more weight/legitimacy were attributed later as divine laws (same story with the a man shall not lie with another man).
One of those religious laws which are in the old testament/Talmud which is still in effect for jews is the prohibition of eating pork. Check Leviticus 11, 3-7. A good while ago there was a book published by a sociologist that dealt with taboos concerning food, which came up with an explanation how pigs ended up on the no food list, it were mainly ecological/economical reasons iirc (namely farming pigs was not good for the soil and they were too expensive in the upkeep). 

Anyhow, if you are trying to say, the Old Testament does not concern you, because those are laws for Jews and not Christians, then you are somewhat mistaken. Afterall Jesus and his disciples were Jews (or at least brought up as Jews) themselves. So it's a fairly safe bet, that the same divine laws applied to "Rabbi" Jesus and his students. And Jesus did not challenge a whole lot of those rules. That he declared himself Son of God, that was something that had not become a majority opinion. So Christianity just started off as some sort of Offspring of the Jewish faith. So a safe assumption would be, that the first few generations of Christians followed the same rules. As Christianity spread, they probably incorporated more and more customs of the cultures they sought to assimiliate. So the pagan festivities of winter solstice became Jesus birthday.

And some other pagan fertility festivities became the day the lord raised from the dead. The Easter Bunny (fertility symbol) is a nice remnant, if you have ever wondered what a bunny has got to do with the resurrection of Jesus.

Same assimilation process also happened to Islam btw. That awful practice of circumcising women in some African countries. That is afaik not something the prophet came up with, but that was a practice that existed before Islam reached those tribes. Needless to say, I prefer the Bunny.

Talking about Islam. There are some similarities between Quran, Talmud, and Bible. The reason for that, is that the prophet Mohamad probably used the existing religious texts as some sort of blue print for his monotheistic religion. In a way, the Islam appears to be "Sola Scripture" religion. So they stuck closer to the word of god. 

Christians and Jews (except for some Ultra Orthodox nutjobs) have managed to get further away from god('s word). Thus my initial statement post, fortunately there are not really "real Christians" around running the show.

[peterbound]

This guy has either just taken a 101 level religious theory class, or read way to many wiki threads.

Your knowledge is about a mile wide here and an inch deep. I'm also pretty sure we've covered the whole OT/NT thing.

Romans 10:4 and some other NT verses can be used to wipe out the Levitical laws followed by the Jews.

Also, the definition of what a 'Christian' is can be pretty fluid, unlike Islam it's not a faith that requires as much 'submission' to the doctrine. Hence its ability to adapt and flourish during different epochs.

[Dofs]

Notone,

There are some bits of information that you already know but as I see, there is a lot that you don't know, and your personal tries to 'fill the gaps' are simply way off.

First of all:

*sigh*

Back in a time far, far away. Those rules were in very likely to be laws, which guided everyday life in Jerusalem. Granted it's been a while since Jews and Christians had the idea that stoning a woman which was unfaithful to her husband was the appropriate punishment. Though I would reverse cause and effect there. It were probably laws that guided everyday life some millenia ago, whose origin in order to give it more weight/legitimacy were attributed later as divine laws (same story with the a man shall not lie with another man).

Christians never stoned women. There is a verse in the Bible where Jesus stops that.

Anyhow, if you are trying to say, the Old Testament does not concern you, because those are laws for Jews and not Christians, then you are somewhat mistaken. 

No, it's you who are mistaken if you think OT laws are for Christians. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. There are verses in the Bible that say that Christian should not follow the OT laws except for some exception approved by Jesus and apostle Paul. OT laws like Leviticus laws were never  followed by Christians, from the very beginning of religion's inception.

Afterall Jesus and his disciples were Jews (or at least brought up as Jews) themselves. So it's a fairly safe bet, that the same divine laws applied to "Rabbi" Jesus and his students. And Jesus did not challenge a whole lot of those rules. That he declared himself Son of God, that was something that had not become a majority opinion. So Christianity just started off as some sort of Offspring of the Jewish faith. So a safe assumption would be, that the first few generations of Christians followed the same rules.

Yes, Jesus and his disciples were technically Jews and considered themselves as such. But if they were Jews and followed all the Jewish law, why then they persecuted by Jewish priests and basically considered as heretics? Maybe because Jesus did challenge those rules? Maybe because what he preached about wasn't in line with the official Jewish religion?

Jesus was not some law-abiding Jew who simply called himself a Son of God. He was changing the religion, updating it. And his sacrifice is considered to have relieved people of the Leviticus law, as is written by apostle Paul, the founder of the Christian Church. These are the basics of Christianity. 

I have already argued about this in this very thread, I believe, and have provided the relevant verses. If you doubt me, search this thread for them, I am not going to repeat myself here over and over again.

 

[Mr Fixit]

If you don't mind me asking, Scot, do you observe Christmas on 25 Dec or 7 Jan?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Personally I can't see a place for any religion in a modern western world. And yet it still exists.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

If you don't mind me asking, Scot, do you observe Christmas on 25 Dec or 7 Jan?

Mr. Fixit,

The OCA (Orthodox Church in America (decended from the Russian Orthodox Church)) observes Nativity (Christmas) on Dec. 25th.

 

Channel,

You are certainly entitled to hold such an opinion and we're entitled to go on practicing our faiths. 

[cgrnosfe]

Western lifestyle is fundamentally incompatible with any religion. You have to leave your religion behind or practice only when you are in designated practicing facilities, be it a mosque, church or anything else. The problem with Muslim world is they have not been through Renaissance, reforms or any other uprising against religion / religious life. Also Muslim community does not have the 'church' as it is in Vatican, local religious people yes of course but not in the sense of a different class of religious leaders.

You can read Kemal Ataturk, founder of the first and only secular state populated by Muslim people (turkey). He is praised by some and hated by of course the die hard Muslims.

One can argue that religion is dying, be it Islam or any religion, being replaced by states, science, common sense, human rights and mutual respect. And one can also add that it was invented to provide these for its time in the first place.

I have no honest opinion on this subject by the way, have no time to think about these

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Western lifestyle is fundamentally incompatible with any religion. You have to leave your religion behind or practice only when you are in designated practicing facilities, be it a mosque, church or anything else. The problem with Muslim world is they have not been through Renaissance, reforms or any other uprising against religion / religious life. Also Muslim community does not have the 'church' as it is in Vatican, local religious people yes of course but not in the sense of a different class of religious leaders.

 

You can read Kemal Ataturk, founder of the first and only secular state populated by Muslim people (turkey). He is praised by some and hated by of course the die hard Muslims.

 

One can argue that religion is dying, be it Islam or any religion, being replaced by states, science, common sense, human rights and mutual respect. And one can also add that it was invented to provide these for its time in the first place.

 

I have no honest opinion on this subject by the way, have no time to think about these

I haven't left my faith behind and I seem to function fairly well in my modern Western society.

[peterbound]

Western lifestyle is fundamentally incompatible with any religion. You have to leave your religion behind or practice only when you are in designated practicing facilities, be it a mosque, church or anything else. The problem with Muslim world is they have not been through Renaissance, reforms or any other uprising against religion / religious life. Also Muslim community does not have the 'church' as it is in Vatican, local religious people yes of course but not in the sense of a different class of religious leaders.

 

You can read Kemal Ataturk, founder of the first and only secular state populated by Muslim people (turkey). He is praised by some and hated by of course the die hard Muslims.

 

One can argue that religion is dying, be it Islam or any religion, being replaced by states, science, common sense, human rights and mutual respect. And one can also add that it was invented to provide these for its time in the first place.

 

I have no honest opinion on this subject by the way, have no time to think about these

yeah, I'm not so sure. 

 

Christianly has done shockingly well I'm the western world.  The idea of divine guidance, favored status, and manifest destiny permeate the american identity.  They still do to this day.  I'm not sure why the capitalist ideals have somehow co mingled with the christian experience, but as stated above, the followers of christ have flourished in american soil. Over 70% of the entire american population claim to be some flavor of Christian. So yea, I'm not sure where you are getting this, but the faith its still a fundamental part of american culture (although as an atheist i hate to admit that fact)

[DireWolfSpirit]

Did anyone else see those recent headlines with the Southern politician babbling about how "Gods laws trump U.S. laws" ? These are the religious folks that terrify many of us in the secular community.

 

p.s. I notice that the verse about Jesus and the adulteress woman and "Thou shall not be lobbing bricks n chit" , I believe its this one - Jesus and the woman taken in adultery — a passage known as the Pericope Adulterae(/pəˈrɪkəpiː əˈdʌltəriː/)^[1] or Pericope de Adultera — is a famous passage (pericope) found in the Gospel of John 7:53-8:11.

^^ Has been referred to in a couple of posts now, but this is a horrible example as those verses have been widely cited by biblical and textual scholars as a likely interpolation. Bart Ehrman discusses this in "Misquoting Jesus" and in several interviews and lectures.

Bart Ehrman- Misquoting Jesus - The Veritas Society

forums.vsociety.net › ...

Feb 11, 2011 - Bart Ehrman Interview on "Misquoting Jesus" ... Bart Ehrman's 'Misquoting Jesus' : NPR .... The last 12 verses of the Gospel of Mark appear to have been .... The story of the woman who was to be stoned never happened and ...

 

Here's an Ehrman interview on NPR- http://youtu.be/6xMo323BDvY

 

 

 

[cgrnosfe]

I haven't left my faith behind and I seem to function fairly well in my modern Western society.

When you commit a crime, are you judged based on religious law or secular law?

When you do not obey the laws of your religion, do you face consequences?

Are you paying taxes laid on you by your religious laws?

As far as I know all European states are pretty much secular. You of course have the right to practice your religion in its designated space but you do not live your whole life according to religion, am I correct? I might be of course wrong, I have been to Germany, France, Belgium, Italy and Austria up to now and this was my observation.

yeah, I'm not so sure. 

 

Christianly has done shockingly well I'm the western world.  The idea of divine guidance, favored status, and manifest destiny permeate the american identity.  They still do to this day.  I'm not sure why the capitalist ideals have somehow co mingled with the christian experience, but as stated above, the followers of christ have flourished in american soil. Over 70% of the entire american population claim to be some flavor of Christian. So yea, I'm not sure where you are getting this, but the faith its still a fundamental part of american culture (although as an atheist i hate to admit that fact)

I have just been once to the US and the same questions apply for you.

The questions i ask above is what the Muslims want.

Also I find it hypocrite of Muslims to condemn the West at every opportunity and then run into western arms at the first incident. I do not condemn the West, I respect it and expect nothing but respect in return. I would never leave my country no matter the consequences.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

 

When you commit a crime, are you judged based on religious law or secular law?

 

When you do not obey the laws of your religion, do you face consequences?

 

Are you paying taxes laid on you by your religious laws?

 

As far as I know all European states are pretty much secular. You of course have the right to practice your religion in its designated space but you do not live your whole life according to religion, am I correct? I might be of course wrong, I have been to Germany, France, Belgium, Italy and Austria up to now and this was my observation.

 

 

I have just been once to the US and the same questions apply for you.

 

The questions i ask above is what the Muslims want.

 

Also I find it hypocrite of Muslims to condemn the West at every opportunity and then run into western arms at the first incident. I do not condemn the West, I respect it and expect nothing but respect in return. I would never leave my country no matter the consequences.

Why does religion have to exercise the power of the State to exist within a secular society?  You have a skewed view of what it means to have faith within a secular society. 

[cgrnosfe]

Why does religion have to exercise the power of the State to exist within a secular society?  You have a skewed view of what it means to have faith within a secular society. 

This is not my view.

This is what would have happened if you had not left your religion behind and lived in a religious society instead of a secular society.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

 

This is not my view.

 

This is what would have happened if you had not left your religion behind and lived in a religious society instead of a secular society.

I haven't left my faith behind to live in a secular society.  I hold to my faith within a secular society.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

 

This is not my view.

 

This is what would have happened if you had not left your religion behind and lived in a religious society instead of a secular society.

No one left religion behind. Why do you keep saying this? The only difference is in America you, me, anyone has religous freedom as a constitutionally protected right. Our laws allow you to worship however you please and are not in turn an extension of any religion. 

And so, here is where the problem with the West and Islam, particularly Sharia Law that some grow up following. This is why you're making the argument that you're making, no? If not Sharia Law then a government that still holds the Koran as part of it's laws.

Quit frankly, imho, that'll would be the best part Islam could ever leave behind of their religion. This is what draws the fanatics in. This strict adherence to the Koran is so out dated and only used as an excuse to rule a population without question. Ruling any country based on a religion is quite frankly scary to me. That is what DireWolf says has him/her scared about religion. Though I don't see that happening in the US, I would be equally terrified, as a Christian.

While a Christian, I am by no means one who believes the world was created in 10 days, that Noah put every animal on the arc, I am not a creationist. I adhere to the teachings of Jesus, and what I mean by that is I think, from reading the Bible, he had shit pretty much right with how to treat people. I go to a non-denominational church that simply preaches the life of Jesus. They don't throw a bunch of stuff down my throat about the End times and all that nonsense.The overall message seems to be do unto others as you would want done unto you. So, when I hear people trying to say we as Christians adhere to Letivicus, I fall over laughing. Yes, some Christians churches are more creationalistic. But, you see, I have the right to walk out and and try a different church next week and don't have to hear that garbage. These are more people who would want to control your life. So, religously, I'd say America is the BEST place in the world to worship any faith you choose.

[cgrnosfe]

No one left religion behind. Why do you keep saying this? The only difference is in America you, me, anyone has religous freedom as a constitutionally protected right. Are laws allow you to worship however you please and are not in turn an extension of any religion. 

And so, here is where the problem with the West and Islam, particularly Sharia Law that some grow up following. This is why you're making the argument that you're making, no? If not Sharia Law then a government that still holds the Koran as part of it's laws.

Quit frankly, imho, that'll would be the best part Islam could ever leave behind of their religion. This is what draws the fanatics in. This strict adherence to the Koran is so out dated and only used as an excuse to rule a population without question. Ruling any country based on a religion is quite frankly scary to me. That is what DireWolf says has him/her scared about religion. Though I don't see that happening in the US, I would be equally terrified, as a Christian.

While a Christian, I am by no means one who believes the world was created in 10 days, that Noah put every animal on the arc, I am not a creationist. I adhere to the teachings of Jesus, and what I mean by that is I think, from reading the Bible, he had shit pretty much right with how to treat people. I go to a non-denominational church that simply preaches the life of Jesus. They don't throw a bunch of stuff down my throat about the End times and all that nonsense.The overall message seems to be do unto others as you would want done unto you. So, when I hear people trying to say we as Christians adhere to Letivicus, I fall over laughing. Yes, some Christians churches are more creationalistic. But, you see, I have the right to walk out and and try a different church next week and don't have to hear that garbage. These are more people who would want to control your life. So, religously, I'd say America is the BEST place in the world to worship any faith you choose.

Absolutely correct, and this is the dilemma of any religion. This is my point, religions are meant for controlling the whole lives of individuals and the mechanics of society. Hence my initial claim that no religion in fact is compatible with democracy, human rights or freedom of speech.

If you can just walk away from your church instead of being crucified as a heredit, you owe this right to your ancestors who fought the churches that crucified heresy centuries ago. The problem with islam is that apart from a single example the right to walk away is non existent for most if not all believers. They are living in the middle of Europe and still want to be judged by their own law because it is their law. That is where the hypocrisy kicks in...