Myrddin Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I asked if Myrddin had any specific threats from Sharia in mind, because there is a town in Texas where a mosque offered voluntary, nonbinding mediation services between its members, and the mayor of the town immediately seized that as evidence of OMG CREEPING SHARIA LAW!No, I have read about a town in Sweden similar to that (which a friend of mine moving back there was pretty turned off by what he found), but it's this that I was thinking of and tied it in my head with application of Shiria law in the west:Myrddin,You mean like through the existing Arbitration process where parties can remove a case from court and proceed informally based upon rules agreed to by the parties? Yes, they can and have for decades. Yeah, the arbitration process. Is this practiced by other religions too or just Islam?And yes, I know it's basically the same as two parties settling outside of court through lawyers, but with laws from their traditions as the foundation for deciding outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted December 11, 2015 Author Share Posted December 11, 2015 Myrddin,My point is that if the parties agree they can use hypothetical legal code of Gondor if that's what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 As I seem to recall that there is a Millennium long tradition among Jewish Rabbis of discussing and debating the finer points of Levitical law and that as such your course and one pass interpretation of a passage in English and out of context of the other passages around it may give meaning and nuance to that passage that we as non-Levitical scholars don't see or understand.There is the same tradition in Islam as well the four schools of Sunni Islamic law have debated the issues for just as long, and they have not come to the conclusions various internet commentators say are mandatory. ISIS and the Salafis are not traditional Islam they have thrown out centuries of interpretation for their own modern view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 What parts are and are not taken seriously of both the OT and NT is up to the individual Christian, and we are just fortunate to live in a time when Christians do indeed interpret much of it as metaphor or otherwise not to be taken seriously. But this has not always been the case, and they could and have interpreted it in such a way as to do everything that Dofs list about the Quran. And given the shit going on with Trump and the far right's seeming rise in Europe I'd be wary of a regression happening.This has been always pretty much the case. Some of the Levitical laws had been dismissed in the NT by the Jesus himself, the rules to disregard Levitical laws in Christianity had been set by apostle Paul. No devout, hardline, extremist, violent Christian in the history who was from any of the mainstream Churches followed Levitical laws. They are simply not part of the Christianity. That's a fact. Saying that this had not always been the case means that you don't really know much about Christianity, and just read somewhere the quotes from Leviticus, had a misconception that Christians are supposed to follow everything that's written in the Bible and connected the dots.I am pretty sure there are many instances in the Bible that the Christians are supposed to follow but choose not to. But the Levitical laws are simply not those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 This has been always pretty much the case. Some of the Levitical laws had been dismissed in the NT by the Jesus himself, the rules to disregard Levitical laws in Christianity had been set by apostle Paul. No devout, hardline, extremist, violent Christian in the history who was from any of the mainstream Churches followed Levitical laws. They are simply not part of the Christianity. That's a fact. Saying that this had not always been the case means that you don't really know much about Christianity, and just read somewhere the quotes from Leviticus, had a misconception that Christians are supposed to follow everything that's written in the Bible and connected the dots.I am pretty sure there are many instances in the Bible that the Christians are supposed to follow but choose not to. But the Levitical laws are simply not those.Are you at all familiar where the anti-gay rhetoric Christians uses comes from? Also fuck your no true scotsman bullshit. I don't accept it from Muslims when they claim ISIS aren't real Muslims and I'm not accepting it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Are you at all familiar where the anti-gay rhetoric Christians uses comes from? Also fuck your no true scotsman bullshit. I don't accept it from Muslims when they claim ISIS aren't real Muslims and I'm not accepting it here.Very respected Islamic authorities in Egypt and Saudi Arabia do refuse to say ISIS are not Islamic. There really is a massive amount of ignorance about the OT and its place in Christianity from atheists on the board. You should listen to Dofs and Peterbound, they're right it is not sensible to compare the Laws of Moses with the Koran and the Hadith. Most Christians think, and have always thought, that you're not allowed to practice much of the Mosaic Law, on pain of denying Christ's sacrifice.http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2103.htm#article4Educate yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 But we're arguing that Scotsmen are incompatible with the west. And despite the fact that millions of Scotsmen have no problem with the west, some here are blaming the fact that the violent assholes are Scotsmen, because parts of the Scotsmen code that millions of Scotsmen ignore call for the killing of other Westerners. FUNDAMENTALIST Scotsmenism is incompatible. Scotsmenism itself isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Agrippa Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I just come to the conclusion that I really do hate everyone involved with religion including the atheists. Humanity is a thing, if a god exists we will end up killing it anyway. It seems its what we are best at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Are you at all familiar where the anti-gay rhetoric Christians uses comes from? Also fuck your no true scotsman bullshit. I don't accept it from Muslims when they claim ISIS aren't real Muslims and I'm not accepting it here.I do find the OT passages in homosexuals funny, as they are almost on the same page as not eating shellfish. However, it is addressed in the NT as well. Not sure why I'm defending this. I'm not a fan of it, but you're off the mark with your understanding, and you're smarter than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 But we're arguing that Scotsmen are incompatible with the west. And despite the fact that millions of Scotsmen have no problem with the west, some here are blaming the fact that the violent assholes are Scotsmen, because parts of the Scotsmen code that millions of Scotsmen ignore call for the killing of other Westerners. FUNDAMENTALIST Scotsmenism is incompatible. Scotsmenism itself isn't.I agree. One of the ways I frame is that Islam might be compatible with the west, but Islamism. The complete and utter adherence to the outdated beliefs is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 So wait, modern practice of Christianity in America is all cool with gay people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I do find the OT passages in homosexuals funny, as they are almost on the same page as not eating shellfish. However, it is addressed in the NT as well. Not sure why I'm defending this. I'm not a fan of it, but you're off the mark with your understanding, and you're smarter than that.Which doesn't change my point in the slightest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Radicalized Christians- Are they fundamentally incompatible with the West?Google radicalized Christians and the examples are extensive.Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorismAccording to Rapoport, this wave most prominently features Islamic terrorism, but also includes terrorism by Christians and other religious groups that may have ...Hutaree - Christianity and violence - Category:Christian terrorism - JewishPrevious: Here are 8 Christian Terrorist Organizations That Equal ISISaattp.org/here-are-8-christian-terrorist-organizations-that-equal-isis/Feb 9, 2015 - So here we have a Christian terrorist group spreading their faith in India ..... Sure, there are radical groups in almost every religion who pervert ...6 modern-day Christian terrorist groups our media conveniently ...www.salon.com/.../6_modern_day_christian_terrorist_groups_our_media_...Apr 7, 2015 - They don't get the coverage of ISIS or Boko Haram, but organizations like "The Army of God" are no less dangerous.10 of the Worst Terror Attacks by Extreme Christians and Far-Right ...www.alternet.org/.../10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-righ...Jul 24, 2013 - The Rev. Donald Spitz, a Christianist and Army of God supporter who is so extreme that even the radical anti-abortion group Operation Rescue ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Americans; are they fundamentally incompatible with the West? I vote yes, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 But we're arguing that Scotsmen are incompatible with the west. And despite the fact that millions of Scotsmen have no problem with the west, some here are blaming the fact that the violent assholes are Scotsmen, because parts of the Scotsmen code that millions of Scotsmen ignore call for the killing of other Westerners. FUNDAMENTALIST Scotsmenism is incompatible. Scotsmenism itself isn't. Thank you for putting it so concisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Are you at all familiar where the anti-gay rhetoric Christians uses comes from? Also fuck your no true scotsman bullshit. I don't accept it from Muslims when they claim ISIS aren't real Muslims and I'm not accepting it here.Do you think that Christians are following Levitical law when they speak against gays or what?And I am not saying that Christians who follow Levitical laws are not true Christians. I am saying that official mainstream Christianity never ever in its history has considered Levitical laws as a part of its faith. It's not a matter of Christians choosing not to follow these rules or interpreting them differently. They are simply officially not part of the religion since the very beginning. Fundamentalist Christians would not follow those laws because those laws are not part of Christianity's fundamentals. Whereas the laws in Quran and Hadiths are officially part of Islam and Muslims not following them is really them choosing not to follow them or interpreting them in their own way.Hence, you can't compare them. It's simple. One set of rules are part of its religion, another isn't. Completely different situations.OT is majorly considered as a history book. Hence many Christians believe in Adam and Eva and the Flood - because that's how OT describes the history. The same about Levitical laws. Do a lot of devout Christians believe that they existed and were a word of God. Yes, they do. Do they believe that they have to follow them now? No, they don't because one of the pillars of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is a son of God who changed the laws, hence the Levitical laws are not applicable anymore. These are the basics that as I see a lot of people are completely ignorant about. Christianity has its own fair share of problems (homophobia being one of them, for example) that can be pointed out but to attack Christians with Levitical laws is just showing your ignorance. Please, stop doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Do you think that Christians are following Levitical law when they speak against gays or what?Have you not heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? Or Uganda's anti-gay bill that made Homosexuality punishable up to death? Fortunately struck down by their supreme court. American Christian evangelicals helped draft it, including ones that pointed to Leviticus for support of their position.And I am not saying that Christians who follow Levitical laws are not true Christians. I am saying that official mainstream Christianity never ever in its history has considered Levitical laws as a part of its faith. It's not a matter of Christians choosing not to follow these rules or interpreting them differently. They are simply officially not part of the religion since the very beginning. Fundamentalist Christians would not follow those laws because those laws are not part of Christianity's fundamentals. Whereas the laws in Quran and Hadiths are officially part of Islam and Muslims not following them is really them choosing not to follow them or interpreting them in their own way.And I'm saying your wrong, since fundamentalist Christians do point to Leviticus for support of their position. Will they follow the entire thing? Not always, because like I said, they will pick and choose the parts they want to follow just like they do with the NT. So you end up with Christian pointing to Leviticus for support of homo-sexualities immorality while not going quite so far as to say they should be killed. Though yes, some do go that far.Hence, you can't compare them. It's simple. One set of rules are part of its religion, another isn't. Completely different situations. No you can, and I did. Because again, some Christians do consider parts of it part of their religion.OT is majorly considered as a history book. Hence many Christians believe in Adam and Eva and the Flood - because that's how OT describes the history. The same about Levitical laws. Do a lot of devout Christians believe that they existed and were a word of God. Yes, they do. Do they believe that they have to follow them now? No, they don't because one of the pillars of Christianity is that Jesus Christ is a son of God who changed the laws, hence the Levitical laws are not applicable anymore. These are the basics that as I see a lot of people are completely ignorant about. Except all the ones that do, but apparently you can just ignore that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Reckoner Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 @OP: Of course not. They've always got a choice. There's the good one where they jive with the West and integrate quite nicely with the culture, and the bad one that turns them into loony toons that'll kill you for showing too much skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Have you not heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? Well, I haven't, so I've looked up. In their FAQ they speak why they hate gays and refer to Levictus where homosexuality was punishable by death as an example of God's hatred of gays. They clearly refer to it as a historical law that existed in ancient Israel. They also provide other examples in Bible of God hating gays there, justifying their views, which means they do not simply follow Leviticus there.Their message, and the message of pretty much all the other anti-gay Christians is that based on many examples of Bible where God according to them clearly hates gays and considers this as one of the lowest sins. They do not hate gays just because there is a law in Leviticus that says they must. And thus I repeat, Levitical laws are not applicable to Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I don't understand why we care whether or not Leviticus is the true source of the strong homophobic strain in modern Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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