Star Wars Episode VIII: The Force Rolls out of Bed and Stretches [Ep VII Spoilers]

[Howdyphillip]

49 minutes ago, Raja said:

Fair enough. I suppose you have the right to stick to that opinion.

However, you're incorrect when you imply that people should hold onto the same opinion they had when they walked out of the movie as opposed to 6 months after the movie. Opinions change, and sometimes, the longer you think about the movie, the more you realize that it's actually not as good as you thought it was when you walked out of it ( This in fact is my opinion on TFA) . Has that not happened to you? 

I'll give you an example - Take Pacific Rim - I had a lot of fun watching that film and was entertained, but I recently re-watched it and realised that there are gaping holes in that movie that bother me - shock horror - opinions about entertainment are not set in stone. 

My problem with your argument is you reducing it to 'oh it's hipster hate, these people don't actually think like this, they are just bringing up these criticism to look cool/ hispterish' -  Instead of maybe entertaining the idea that these people may genuinely have significant issues with TFA ( Even if they might bring these issues up more recently as opposed to after the film came out) 

 

 First off, thanks for the dialogue... You do bring up good points.

 I can't really recall any time that I have seen a movie where my opinion has been changed so diametrically. I have noticed plot holes in second viewings that I missed the first time, and have noticed questionable acting, or sub par technical work in certain scenes, but my overall impressions have never gone from one extreme to the other. 

 The only example I can think of is the music of Die Antwoord, and that was going from the opposite side of things. I actively disliked their stuff for a long time, and then one day, I heard it again and something clicked, and now I really enjoy it. 

 I do think that the "hipster hate" argument is valid, and it is extremely valid concerning Episode VII. The movie made $2 billion, and now it is far more common to hear about how "horrible" it was than to find someone who praises it. Most of this is the same tired arguments about it being "exactly" like ANH (which it absolutely was not). 

Anyway, thanks again for the conversation... and now I am stuck listening to die antwoord for the rest of the morning...

[Raja]

2 hours ago, HowdyGareth Bale said:

 First off, thanks for the dialogue... You do bring up good points.

 I can't really recall any time that I have seen a movie where my opinion has been changed so diametrically. I have noticed plot holes in second viewings that I missed the first time, and have noticed questionable acting, or sub par technical work in certain scenes, but my overall impressions have never gone from one extreme to the other. 

 The only example I can think of is the music of Die Antwoord, and that was going from the opposite side of things. I actively disliked their stuff for a long time, and then one day, I heard it again and something clicked, and now I really enjoy it. 

 I do think that the "hipster hate" argument is valid, and it is extremely valid concerning Episode VII. The movie made $2 billion, and now it is far more common to hear about how "horrible" it was than to find someone who praises it. Most of this is the same tired arguments about it being "exactly" like ANH (which it absolutely was not). 

Anyway, thanks again for the conversation... and now I am stuck listening to die antwoord for the rest of the morning...

I think my opinion on TFA is akin to the folks over at the /filmcast ( Do you listen? Their Force Awakens episode is pretty awesome. The hosts were invited to the premiere and their insight into the event is something most fans of Star Wars will appreciate), in that I don't particularly enjoy how close it was to episode 4, however JJ & and his team finally gave us characters that we can root for and want to be with in Ray, Finn and Kylo ( I have a particular weakness for anything Adam Driver is in) - IMO, if they had missed with any of the main characters, I would be far more critical of the film than I am. 

[Kalbear]

Oddly, the more I've watched it the more I appreciate certain things.

Like, it took me until I watched it at home to appreciate the way they did the choreography of the Ren/Rey fight scene, and how much better it was because the fight tells a story (instead of just being cool blade flourishes and choreography).

Or the beautiful framing of Ren getting shot and things exploding on the bridge after he's killed Han - it's right out of a Ralph McQuarrie painting. 

Or being able to look at every single little bit of the dream sequence that Rey has.

Or being able to appreciate how the entire movie sets up Rey as this incredibly powerful force user and makes sure that we're in on the joke. She has no idea how she flew so well! She can't explain how she was able to escape the interrogation, or see into Ren's heart! She has no idea why Luke's lightsaber is calling to her! And she can't explain how she can beat Ren in a fight. Those were stated as plot holes, but to me I see them as foreshadowing. 

I think there are a lot of holes and stupid shit in there, mind you. Just like there was in ANH and TESB. (seriously, how did the Falcon get from Hoth to Bespin on sublight?) There were a few beats that I don't like a crazy amount. But the nitpicking of details, the calling of Mary Sue, the intentional callbacks to ANH that are criticized - that, I feel like, really just feels like complaining for its own sake. 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Oddly, the more I've watched it the more I appreciate certain things.

 

I go both ways with that  - there are some things I like a lot more ( The Kylo/ Rey scenes, the lightsaber battle, rey's moments in Jaku before she meets BB8) and some things that bother me more than they did ( The First order, everything with Maz - the shoddy way Rey gets the lightsaber, and the beat by beat similarities to episode 4). 

The mary sue criticism  I certainly don't agree with. Personally, I find that an odd criticism. However, I certainly don't think the 'callbacks' to episode 4 is a criticism for 'it's own sake' - the template-ness of the film stands out on repeated viewings and isn't something I can just switch off.

I'm someone who has seen TFA 4 times in the cinema - it would be odd for me to spend that sum of money just so I can find things to complain about for the 'sake of it'. It shouldn't be shocking that the things that bother you to a small extent, might bother someone else far more. 

[Kalbear]

Quote

 It shouldn't be shocking that the things that bother you to a small extent, might bother someone else far more. 

Oh no, I get that. Believe me, I get that. I guess for me it's more about the type of complaining. If you didn't like the ANH beats because you felt that the callback didn't work, or that you simply wanted something new - sure. I can see how that'd bug.

But there are other people who say that they did it because they were uncreative, or couldn't figure out something better to do, or felt like they had to do it this way. And that...just doesn't seem fair at all. They went to great lengths to try and make a movie similar enough to ANH to earn back trust. That was the goal - to give people enough similar beats and values so that they knew that this was a Star Wars movie, and it wasn't some random BS. And that was deliberate. If it didn't work for you, that makes perfect sense. If it was disappointing that they did that, okay. But if you think they did it because they're untalented hacks or something - that's bullshit. 

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

14 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Oh no, I get that. Believe me, I get that. I guess for me it's more about the type of complaining. If you didn't like the ANH beats because you felt that the callback didn't work, or that you simply wanted something new - sure. I can see how that'd bug.

But there are other people who say that they did it because they were uncreative, or couldn't figure out something better to do, or felt like they had to do it this way. And that...just doesn't seem fair at all. They went to great lengths to try and make a movie similar enough to ANH to earn back trust. That was the goal - to give people enough similar beats and values so that they knew that this was a Star Wars movie, and it wasn't some random BS. And that was deliberate. If it didn't work for you, that makes perfect sense. If it was disappointing that they did that, okay. But if you think they did it because they're untalented hacks or something - that's bullshit. 

 I get your point, and I think you're mostly right. They did have to win back trust and they succeeded for the most part. That being said, I think by the time you get to the end of the flick, it gets to be too much. The rehashed Death Star ending tipped it over the edge for me. That was hacky.

 The thing is they managed to capture the feel of the original trilogy in scenes that weren't  direct callbacks. The one that stood out for me was Finn and Poe's escape from the New Order base in the tethered Tie Fighter. That was straight-up Star Wars, without being completely derivative. I wanted a little more of that. 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 The thing is they managed to capture the feel of the original trilogy in scenes that weren't  direct callbacks. The one that stood out for me was Finn and Poe's escape from the New Order base in the tethered Tie Fighter. That was straight-up Star Wars, without being completely derivative. I wanted a little more of that. 

Oh yeah. That was there. Finn and Rey repairing the Falcon and Finn trying to get BB8 to back up his lie while we're "in" on the joke was too. So were Han and Finn's beats later on. Or her using the mind trick. Or the Resistance showing up on Takodana and having the awesome x-wing/tie fights along with Finn's fight with FN-2199. 

I feel in general that the starkiller base concept and takedown was dramatically pretty weak. Like, if you took out the entire notion of blowing up the Hosnian system, the destruction of the base itself, the trench run, etc - if you take it out basically entirely and just have it be a mission to blow up an important base - I think it makes the movie better. It can be just about rescuing Rey and going through it that way, and I suspect it'd be stronger overall without missing much. But it'd also be a bit risky to put all your eggs in the basket of making Rey the compelling story, so I think this was a fallback just in case (plus it gave Poe more to do). 

Based on how this went I think we'll have more reliance on Rey, because Rey was obviously so well-liked. We'll get less on MacGuffins and more on them doing awesome stuff. 

[felice]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Or being able to appreciate how the entire movie sets up Rey as this incredibly powerful force user and makes sure that we're in on the joke. She has no idea how she flew so well! She can't explain how she was able to escape the interrogation, or see into Ren's heart! She has no idea why Luke's lightsaber is calling to her! And she can't explain how she can beat Ren in a fight. Those were stated as plot holes, but to me I see them as foreshadowing. 

Aside from the fight, that all seemed like normal Force-sensitive powers to me. She could fly well just like Anakin could pod race and Luke could bulls-eye womp rats. Being able to fly at all was more problematic - she was established as a scavenger, not a pilot, and providing instructions on operating complicated technology doesn't strike me as very Force-like.

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I think there are a lot of holes and stupid shit in there, mind you. Just like there was in ANH and TESB. (seriously, how did the Falcon get from Hoth to Bespin on sublight?)

Time dilation. Bespin was a few light months away, but travelling at near light speed, subjective time elapsed on board the Falcon was only days or even hours (whereas Luke experienced the full period of months on Dagobah).

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

I feel in general that the starkiller base concept and takedown was dramatically pretty weak. Like, if you took out the entire notion of blowing up the Hosnian system, the destruction of the base itself, the trench run, etc - if you take it out basically entirely and just have it be a mission to blow up an important base - I think it makes the movie better.

I'd agree there.

[Castel]

2 hours ago, felice said:

Time dilation. Bespin was a few light months away, but travelling at near light speed, subjective time elapsed on board the Falcon was only days or even hours (whereas Luke experienced the full period of months on Dagobah).

 

Is this canon? Cause I just came back from talking about Luke's quite abbreviated training schedule and this would be a good explanation.

If not, this sounds like a great EU theory to explain it, kinda like the whole "Kessel Run in 12 parsecs" thing, except not silly.

7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Or being able to appreciate how the entire movie sets up Rey as this incredibly powerful force user and makes sure that we're in on the joke. She has no idea how she flew so well! She can't explain how she was able to escape the interrogation, or see into Ren's heart! She has no idea why Luke's lightsaber is calling to her! And she can't explain how she can beat Ren in a fight. Those were stated as plot holes, but to me I see them as foreshadowing. 

 

People saw them as contrivances*, not plot holes. Well...I hope anyway.Plot hole as a term is slipping into the semantic black hole that got "Mary Sue". 

 

It's obviously deliberate, and it'll probably have something to do with her parentage (which I'm praying has nothing to do with Obi-Wan, pls no).

 

*For it to be a plot hole, it'd have to directly contradict what happened before, and it doesn't. Nothing she does is actually unprecedented or directly ruled out for any Force user afaik, it's just that none of the Force users we saw were able to do all of those things at that stage, hence: the complaints about her being good in general

[felice]

4 minutes ago, Castel said:

Is this canon?

Not as far as I'm aware (I doubt it occurred to them while they were making it) but I'm sure other people have thought of it, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it made it into the books or other tie-in material at some point. Of course most of that isn't canon any more anyway...

[Corvinus85]

4 hours ago, Castel said:

Is this canon? Cause I just came back from talking about Luke's quite abbreviated training schedule and this would be a good explanation.

If not, this sounds like a great EU theory to explain it, kinda like the whole "Kessel Run in 12 parsecs" thing, except not silly.

Hey, I find the Kessel run explanation perfectly legitimate.

[Corvinus85]

On Starkiller, I agree that that's the weakest part of the movie. I don't mind the existence of another superweapon, but I would like to see said superweapon survive at least one movie. The Resistance was scrambling to destroy it, because they knew they were the next target, but not really sure why they couldn't just evacuate their base. Unless the Illenium system has an indigenous population that the Resistance wanted to save.

Imagine if the next movie had started with the First Order blowing up star systems left and right, and not giving the Resistance any reprieve. Kinda like "38 minutes" episode from BSG but on a galactic scale. 

[Castel]

3 hours ago, Korvín-Corvinus said:

Hey, I find the Kessel run explanation perfectly legitimate.

It's not that it's technically wrong, it's such a blatant case of trying to fix something that Lucas messed up that it just looks a bit hilarious.

Honestly, just writing it off as Han bullshitting or "Lucas fucked up" does the same job for me.

[Kalbear]

Quote

Aside from the fight, that all seemed like normal Force-sensitive powers to me. She could fly well just like Anakin could pod race and Luke could bulls-eye womp rats. Being able to fly at all was more problematic - she was established as a scavenger, not a pilot, and providing instructions on operating complicated technology doesn't strike me as very Force-like.

So yes, she could do force things as powerful as the most powerful Jedi ever. 

As to her being able to give advice on complicated tech, this is literally explained in the movie. She has been working on the Falcon with Unkar Plutt for most of her life. She's been working on spaceship tech since she was 8. That's her actual skill coming to the forefront. 

Where the Force comes in is her being in the right place at the right time, using instinct to do the right thing, and her reflexes and fast abilities combined with her mental fortitude. Piloting is absolutely a Force thing, as established by Anakin and Luke. 

[Slurktan]

9 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 

Where the Force comes in is her being in the right place at the right time, using instinct to do the right thing, and her reflexes and fast abilities combined with her mental fortitude. Piloting is absolutely a Force thing, as established by Anakin and Luke. 

It's one thing to be really good on something that you have minimal experience with like Luke and Anakin.  It's another thing that the first time she's ever piloted a spacecraft she does that move with the Falcon so that Finn can shoot the tie fighter.

[Kalbear]

Anakin blew up a trade federation space fleet when he was 9. If his experience with pod racing translates to starfighters, rey driving a USB drive translated to flying the Falcon. 

[felice]

11 hours ago, Kalbear said:

So yes, she could do force things as powerful as the most powerful Jedi ever.

Or alternatively, things every single Jedi we see in the movies can do. Obi-wan beats Anakin, the Emperor and Yoda are more powerful than both, and I don't recall any indication that Luke was unusually powerful for a potential Jedi (being strong in the Force is a basic job requirement).

11 hours ago, Kalbear said:

As to her being able to give advice on complicated tech, this is literally explained in the movie. She has been working on the Falcon with Unkar Plutt for most of her life. She's been working on spaceship tech since she was 8. That's her actual skill coming to the forefront.

That's not established before she shows off her piloting skills, though. She can recognise potentially valuable components to yank out of Star Destroyer wreckage; that's a far cry from being a fully fledged starship engineer. Plutt is just the guy she queues up to sell scrap to, there's no hint of any stronger relationship such as him training her in piloting and ship maintenance. And she writes the Falcon off as junk that hasn't flown in years, which doesn't make much sense if she's intimately familiar with its systems; it might not be the most reliable ship in the galaxy, but it's capable of pretty impressive performance (it's still famous for the Kessel Run!) and its potential should be clear to someone with skills she apparently has. I like Rey as a character, but the film did a poor job of telling her story.

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Anakin blew up a trade federation space fleet when he was 9.

That was really really stupid, though.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

6 hours ago, felice said:

Plutt is just the guy she queues up to sell scrap to, there's no hint of any stronger relationship such as him training her in piloting and ship maintenance.

 

We see that it's Plutt she's left with in that flashback. Also he's the owner of the Falcon and through dialogue it's made pretty clear that Rey has worked on the ship and is familiar with it. She may not have flown it before but she's definitely maintained it.

ETA: sorry about the weird text. Quoting from a phone is a nightmare.

[Raja]

On 6/15/2016 at 7:28 AM, Kalbear said:

.And that was deliberate. If it didn't work for you, that makes perfect sense. If it was disappointing that they did that, 

Yeah, I totally agree with your post. It's obvious that the call backs to episode four were deliberate. As you say, it obviously worked for some, but it didn't work for me. 

I don't want to pile on the movie, because perhaps that's what my posts have come across as, but I'd say one part where the creativity was lacking ( besides the star killer base stuff) was the production design. Whatever we say about the prequels, they gave us a bunch of new ships/ weapons/ locations etc - in TFA however, the x wings get a pain job but there's nothing really new there, which is disappointing. 

[Corvinus85]

31 minutes ago, Raja said:

Yeah, I totally agree with your post. It's obvious that the call backs to episode four were deliberate. As you say, it obviously worked for some, but it didn't work for me. 

I don't want to pile on the movie, because perhaps that's what my posts have come across as, but I'd say one part where the creativity was lacking ( besides the star killer base stuff) was the production design. Whatever we say about the prequels, they gave us a bunch of new ships/ weapons/ locations etc - in TFA however, the x wings get a pain job but there's nothing really new there, which is disappointing. 

I would say that all also falls in the category of deliberate call backs to the original trilogy. Even the storm troopers could have had completely different gear if they wanted to go that route. I suppose they could have gone completely different with all these designs, but in a way, there was also consistency within the universe. Storm trooper design, star destroyer design, even X-wing design all started in the Clone Wars. 20 years later there are updates on all these designs. 30 years later, again updates.