Why do people keep exaggerating about the sex\nudity and violence?

[Woman of War]

It is just not possible to parallel Claire from Outlander with Sansa or Dany.

Claire is an adult woman ho has seen it all and certainly would be strong enough to get willingly through a sexual encounter without any erotic attraction but with mutual respect. If anything Jamie is the one who has reason to be nervous. Claire is simply old enough to enjoy the idea of sex with a nice good looking stranger not only in wet dreams but in reality

The series never presented Drogo as particularly brutal towards Dany,  he simply did not even consider the possibility that Dany might disagree and show Dany realized that. What would have happened to Dany if she had disagreed in the books? Respectful non-consummation? Oh no! Martin knew that, we readers know that, it would have been Ramsay like, though   Drogo would not have found any joy. The same scenario as it would have been for Sansa and Tyrion if he had not realized that this child only emulated the dutiful wife in a pervert travesty of adulthood. She only tried to act the way she had been brought up to act. We of course do not know if Willas had been so considerate, he might have been or not. And Sansa as "wanting" Willas as physical lover and not as a promise of puppies and good life  would have been as believable as Pretty Baby wanting the client. Doing her marital or job duty, anything else wishful thinking, Loras gave her wet dreams.

 

And just like in Dany's case with Drogo we can certainly never exclude a positive relationship for Sansa with Willas or Tyrion (though not with Ramsay, lol) later in the books - or a disaster, who knows. Ooops, Willas does not exist in the show........someone else, Pod if she is lucky or Gendry the promised blacksmith. We will interpret the story along with what we like as outcome. Whatever Martin writes it will be "gratuitous sex" or "bad writing"  for those who hate the pairing and "erotic" or "a silver lining" for those who like it.

And again, I have the feeling that Dany's story is about so much more than Sansa's or Claire's.

[Humble AK]

It is pretty glorious that people are so interested in making the scene in the books not a case of a thirteen year old getting raped. I would love to see the arguments used here in a trial:

Attorney: So...you purchased the child, married her without her consent and took her off to have sex. Is this correct?

Defendant: This is acceptable behavior in my culture. And I did give her a beautiful horse.

Attorney: Then you stripped her down, while she was crying, and started fondling her?

Defendant: Again, this is acceptable in my culture. And her nipples got hard, so I knew that she was starting to like it, even though she was crying and telling me 'no.'

Attorney: She told you no?

Defendant: It's the only word I understood of her language. She kept saying it and crying, but the way of my people is that females don't really have a choice in this matter. But I really wanted this kid to enjoy being raped, so I tried to go easy on her. I figured, I'll just keep molesting her until she starts liking it. And it worked! She eventually stopped crying, and put my finger in her vag, and we got it on!

Attorney: Would you have stopped if she had just continued crying and telling you no?

Defendant: Funny you should mention it...because that's exactly what happened later. I don't know what I did right the first night to get her into it, but she wasn't into it for a while after that. So I just had to force her, while she was crying into her pillow because she couldn't stop me. That's just my culture. I figured, you know, if I keep forcing her, maybe some day she'll like it again. And that worked too! She started liking it, we fell in love, and it turned out to be a passionate romance.

Judge: Well, clearly because it ended up being a case of true love, this defendant is absolved of all conduct. Case dismissed.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

6 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Quote Glitch

Just to add, I'll have to disagree with you that Dany's story is much more than Sansa's. If anything, I'm pretty sure Sansa's story is more about her and her own identity and political journey than who she sleeps with, and that's how the story will pay off.

After all, it's not for nothing that George said that Sansa's journey was about learning how to be not a piece, but a player, and how even Cogman, as awful and downright insulting as he was in that interview, made clear that Sansa's journey is into becoming a major player and reclaiming her family home. I'm sorry, but to claim a major character that has covered 26 chapters of a series of books is going to be reduced to "Who's in her bed, Tyrion or Willas?" or as a prize for good behavior to any other character doesn't sit well with me.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

17 minutes ago, Humble AK said:

It is pretty glorious that people are so interested in making the scene in the books not a case of a thirteen year old getting raped. I would love to see the arguments used here in a trial:

Attorney: So...you purchased the child, married her without her consent and took her off to have sex. Is this correct?

Defendant: This is acceptable behavior in my culture. And I did give her a beautiful horse.

Attorney: Then you stripped her down, while she was crying, and started fondling her?

Defendant: Again, this is acceptable in my culture. And her nipples got hard, so I knew that she was starting to like it, even though she was crying and telling me 'no.'

Attorney: She told you no?

Defendant: It's the only word I understood of her language. She kept saying it and crying, but the way of my people is that females don't really have a choice in this matter. But I really wanted this kid to enjoy being raped, so I tried to go easy on her. I figured, I'll just keep molesting her until she starts liking it. And it worked! She eventually stopped crying, and put my finger in her vag, and we got it on!

Attorney: Would you have stopped if she had just continued crying and telling you no?

Defendant: Funny you should mention it...because that's exactly what happened later. I don't know what I did right the first night to get her into it, but she wasn't into it for a while after that. So I just had to force her, while she was crying into her pillow because she couldn't stop me. That's just my culture. I figured, you know, if I keep forcing her, maybe some day she'll like it again. And that worked too! She started liking it, we fell in love, and it turned out to be a passionate romance.

Judge: Well, clearly because it ended up being a case of true love, this defendant is absolved of all conduct. Case dismissed.

Isn't that what it's happening in Cologne? U_U

Seriously, I just want to point out something people seem to have forgotten.

We

are

analysing

literature.

Everything is symbolic, even the literal events. Even if you see a guy shooting another one in the head and yelling at him "I am shooting you in the head because I hate you!", there is 90% of chances the scene means something else.

One of the biggest problems I see in this board is precisely that. People wear their own biased goggles to analyse the books to fit their own narratives and appreciations of society when we are not doing that. Dany wanting to conquer Westeros is more than her wanting to conquer Westeros. It means more than that. The author replace the message with actions. And yes, many authors use sexual violence to deliver a message. That's not the problem. The problem is that many use it so cheaply that the message is lost and it's just rape for the sake of rape.

Dany having sex with Drogo means something beyond the sex. Sansa fantasying with Sandor has more meaning than just her fantasying about him. Dany having sex with Daario means more than her just wanting to have sex with Daario. It's all about women looking liberate themselves from what it's established by society ON THEM and using sex as a metaphor to defy conventions. This is not, in any way, comparable to real situations in which there isn't an author trying to deliver a message and only people getting hurt for real. But in literature, there is one who can take these liberties because such characters don't get hurt in real life.

[kissdbyfire]

33 minutes ago, Humble AK said:

It is pretty glorious that people are so interested in making the scene in the books not a case of a thirteen year old getting raped. I would love to see the arguments used here in a trial:

Attorney: So...you purchased the child, married her without her consent and took her off to have sex. Is this correct?

Defendant: This is acceptable behavior in my culture. And I did give her a beautiful horse.

Attorney: Then you stripped her down, while she was crying, and started fondling her?

Defendant: Again, this is acceptable in my culture. And her nipples got hard, so I knew that she was starting to like it, even though she was crying and telling me 'no.'

Attorney: She told you no?

Defendant: It's the only word I understood of her language. She kept saying it and crying, but the way of my people is that females don't really have a choice in this matter. But I really wanted this kid to enjoy being raped, so I tried to go easy on her. I figured, I'll just keep molesting her until she starts liking it. And it worked! She eventually stopped crying, and put my finger in her vag, and we got it on!

Attorney: Would you have stopped if she had just continued crying and telling you no?

Defendant: Funny you should mention it...because that's exactly what happened later. I don't know what I did right the first night to get her into it, but she wasn't into it for a while after that. So I just had to force her, while she was crying into her pillow because she couldn't stop me. That's just my culture. I figured, you know, if I keep forcing her, maybe some day she'll like it again. And that worked too! She started liking it, we fell in love, and it turned out to be a passionate romance.

Judge: Well, clearly because it ended up being a case of true love, this defendant is absolved of all conduct. Case dismissed.

Perhaps it's a good time to read that chapter again, you seem to be a tad foggy on a few things. 

[Humble AK]

10 minutes ago, JonCon's Red Beard said:

Isn't that what it's happening in Cologne? U_U

Seriously, I just want to point out something people seem to have forgotten.

We

are

analysing

literature.

Everything is symbolic, even the literal events. Even if you see a guy shooting another one in the head and yelling at him "I am shooting you in the head because I hate you!", there is 90% of chances the scene means something else.

One of the biggest problems I see in this board is precisely that. People wear their own biased goggles to analyse the books to fit their own narratives and appreciations of society when we are not doing that. Dany wanting to conquer Westeros is more than her wanting to conquer Westeros. It means more than that. The author replace the message with actions. And yes, many authors use sexual violence to deliver a message. That's not the problem. The problem is that many use it so cheaply that the message is lost and it's just rape for the sake of rape.

Dany having sex with Drogo means something beyond the sex. Sansa fantasying with Sandor has more meaning than just her fantasying about him. Dany having sex with Daario means more than her just wanting to have sex with Daario. It's all about women looking liberate themselves from what it's established by society ON THEM and using sex as a metaphor to defy conventions. This is not, in any way, comparable to real situations in which there isn't an author trying to deliver a message and only people getting hurt for real. But in literature, there is one who can take these liberties because such characters don't get hurt in real life.

If you say so. I need to re-read Lolita with this new understanding, that Humbert Humbert is not really a rapist because Dolores is a fictional character and so behaviors like rape mean something beyond rape. It's a metaphor or some such. I suppose this only applies to literature and not television shows? Or if it does, your mastery of how these metaphors should be understood will indicate a very specific interpretation of what rape means in one presentation vs. what it means in another?

I don't think I can agree with you, but I certainly don't want to change your mind, because that's a pretty awesome way of seeing things.

[Humble AK]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Perhaps it's a good time to read that chapter again, you seem to be a tad foggy on a few things. 

So, I'm misrepresenting quotes like this:

 

Quote

Even the nights brought no relief. Khal Drogo ignored her when they rode, even as he had ignored her during their wedding, and spent his evenings drinking with his warriors and bloodriders, racing his prize horses, watching women dance and men die. Dany had no place in these parts of his life. She was left to sup alone, or with Ser Jorah and her brother, and afterward to cry herself to sleep. Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

This was already quoted a page ago, but figured this could be in case either of us were foggy on a few things.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

@Humble AK: Criticizing the depiction of sexual violence in the show by a book fan might be sketchy (and that's NOT what we do in R&R threads, you just like to conflate criticisms). But a show fan criticizing sexual violence in the books is especially rich.

Well, that you agree with Benioff's infamous 'book reports' quote tells us that your approach to literature is...  a tad askew.

 

[TepidHands]

I would suggest everyone read the REST of that chapter for context. 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Humble AK said:

So, I'm misrepresenting quotes like this:

 

This was already quoted a page ago, but figured this could be in case either of us were foggy on a few things.

Wasn't your "trial" post about Dany's wedding night? Why are you quoting something else?

[Humble AK]

26 minutes ago, Myrish Swamp-Thing said:

@Humble AK: Criticizing the depiction of sexual violence in the show by a book fan might be sketchy (and that's NOT what we do in R&R threads, you just like to conflate criticisms). But a show fan criticizing sexual violence in the books is especially rich.

Well, that you agree with Benioff's infamous 'book reports' quote tells us that your approach to literature is...  a tad askew.

 

I think you are conflating me with someone else. I haven't objected to people calling rape in the show rape. And I don't object to it being in the books either. I wasn't criticizing violence being present in the book or show; I was criticizing the comments that a sequence of scenes involving the rape of a child should be interpreted not as a child getting raped, but rather as romance or the liberation of women or whatever.

And by telling me that my approach to literature is askew, are you trying to suggest that there is an objective way to approach literature, which you, in your fantastically intelligent perception of things, are aware of, compared to those who disagree, who naturally are dull of mind and unable to appreciate the indubitable truth of what you and those who agree with you say? Or are you just throwing that out as an irrelevancy that has no connection to the discussion?

[Humble AK]

1 hour ago, TepidHands said:

I would suggest everyone read the REST of that chapter for context. 

Uh, this may be surprising to you (it shouldn't be, but it might), but I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread has read the entire chapter. Some, like myself, have read it many times (I've read through the first three books four times). I think it was properly contextualized for us. Unless you want to quote the passages that make Drogo's behavior somehow not an older adult raping a thirteen year old? Perhaps I did miss that part in the chapter in my many times reading it.

kissbyfire,

Quote

Wasn't your "trial" post about Dany's wedding night? Why are you quoting something else?

I was making fun of the arguments that were doing their pretzel like gymnastic to assert that Drogo wasn't raping Dany. The rapes didn't occur over one chapter, so I don't see why I needed to confide myself to one chapter. The behavior started that night, and then continued. It's particularly apropos, because there have been suggestions that since Drogo was being all romantic that night, he would have stopped if Dany was unwilling, and I think that passage from another chapter shows how very wrong that is.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

Well, continuing with the trial theme (), I rest my case. It has nothing to do with me claiming to have immense levels of objectivity or anything of the sort.

[Winter's Cold]

Wait are some readers arguing that Dany wasn't raped by Drogo? 

[Humble AK]

10 minutes ago, Myrish Swamp-Thing said:

Well, continuing with the trial theme (), I rest my case. It has nothing to do with me claiming to have immense levels of objectivity or anything of the sort.

Because I've had multiple discussions going on simultaneously, if this is directed to me, can you give a bulletin point of your case? Your last comment was:

1) Stating a false belief that I was criticizing violence being present in the book.

2) Making the groundless assertion that my approach to literature was a tad askew.

Which resting your case at that point seems like it's asking for an unfavorable ruling.

 

4 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Wait are some readers arguing that Dany wasn't raped by Drogo? 

Yes.

[Ruhail]

What the heck happened here?

[of man and wolf]

On 2/24/2016 at 9:18 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I'm trying to remember one sex scene where both man and woman were naked. I'm sure there must have been some, but I can't remember any off the top of my head. Plenty of scenes with fully-clothed men and stark naked women.

Ramsay and Myranda

Theon and Ros

We got to see most of Drogo and Daario

[Good Guy Garlan]

2 hours ago, Ruhail said:

What the heck happened here?

People are alternatively denying, defending or justifying rape. In 2016. 

3 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Wait are some readers arguing that Dany wasn't raped by Drogo? 

Believe or not. It's nauseating, I know. 

4 hours ago, TepidHands said:

I would suggest everyone read the REST of that chapter for context. 

Why, did I miss the part where Dany wakes up and we realize ALL those times she got raped by Drogo was just a dream and never happened?

It's been two threads and no one has been able to prove or show why the passage I quoted isn't sexual abuse. No one's come even close. 

And I'm just gonna come out and say it: the longer you all keep denying/justifying/defending this OBVIOUS rape, the worse you're gonna look. 

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

I'm gonna be a big cop-out here (I guess) and say that I only argued about the wedding night, not the subsequent ones, because the "question" was originally about the wedding night.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

11 hours ago, TepidHands said:

I would suggest everyone read the REST of that chapter for context. 

What? I thought the context of ASOIAF was 2016.