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Small Questions v. 10105

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16 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Not that I care if Ashara is Septa Lemore and I'd rather she's not, tbh, but Catelyn's information is like very second hand information. Catelyn heard it from the Ned's guards who were not at the ToJ and may not have been with him when he traveled to Starfall. Would Ned have given Dawn to Ashara or to the Lord of Starfall? To me, the story that Catelyn thinks about always sounded like planted information.

The pertinent point is that a handful of sources have placed Ashara Dayne in Starfall after the Sack of King's Landing, the lifting of the Siege of Storm's End, and the fight at the Tower of Joy. Catelyn Tully (AGOT: Catelyn II), Cersei Lannister (AGOT: Eddard XII), Edric Dayne (ASOS: Arya VIII), Harwin (ASOS: Arya VIII), and Barristan Selmy (ADWD: Kingbreaker) all either explicitly or implicitly support the idea that Ashara was present at Starfall at that time.

So there would need to be a pretty good explanation as to why Ashara bypassed Sunspear, and brought baby Aegon to Starfall, where he would have been in hiding when Ned showed up after the war, then to Essos after some amount of time, all without ever informing Prince Doran and House Martell of his baby nephew Aegon's survival.

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11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Sorry, @Bael's Bastard, I misunderstood your last post. I thought it was about timing or sequence of events.

I'll try to respond to the rest in a different thread. I have to run now so give me a few hours to start it.

Ok cool, looking forward to it.

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In Sansa's route in both LOIAF and the app, Littlefinger and Lysa visited a series of Vale castles (Coldwater, Snakewood, Heart's Home, Longbow Hall, Old Anchor, Ironoaks) before they reached the Eyrie. Is that stated in the books?

It seems Sansa never met these Vale lords before she reached the Eyrie, though, as shown in AFFC Alayne I:

Quote

Petyr had given her a roll of arms to study, so she knew their heraldry if not their faces...Lady Anya was the only woman amongst the Lords Declarant, and wore a deep green mantle with the broken wheel of Waynwood picked out in beads of jet...Young Lord Hunter’s ermine cloak confused her till she spied the brooch that pinned it, five silver arrows fanned...

Bronze Yohn had slate-grey eyes, half-hidden beneath the bushiest eyebrows she had ever seen. They crinkled when he looked down at her. “Do I know you, girl?”

 

Edited by zionius

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13 minutes ago, zionius said:

In Sansa's route in both LOIAF and the app, Littlefinger and Lysa visited a series of Vale castles (Coldwater, Snakewood, Heart's Home, Longbow Hall, Old Anchor, Ironoaks) before they reached the Eyrie. Is that stated in the books?

No, it is not.

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On 8/26/2018 at 10:32 PM, zionius said:

In Sansa's route in both LOIAF and the app, Littlefinger and Lysa visited a series of Vale castles (Coldwater, Snakewood, Heart's Home, Longbow Hall, Old Anchor, Ironoaks) before they reached the Eyrie.

So that's as canonical as Dany passed Ghoyan Drohe and Vaes Khadokh?

Quote

The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. -SSM June 2001.

For a decade I've been thinking GRRM mistook Arya for Sansa (because it's Arya who said "Lion's Paw" in ASOS Arya VI). Now I know he was probably right! Sansa also remembered the sword as Lion's Paw in the UK version of ACOK:

Quote

He’d owned a sword named Lion’s Paw once, Sansa remembered. Arya had taken it from him and thrown it in a river. -ACOK Chap 57, Sansa V, HarperVoyager kindle version.

In all the US versions I checked it's always Lion's Tooth in that passage. It's still unclear whether the change was made by GRRM or his US editor.

I wonder it's Lion's Paw or Lion's Tooth in the 1st prints of ACOK US/UK version.

Edited by zionius

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On 8/27/2018 at 10:37 PM, zionius said:

Sansa also remembered the sword as Lion's Paw in the UK version of ACOK:

Not in my version. :dunno:

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On 8/27/2018 at 11:37 PM, zionius said:

So that's as canonical as Dany passed Ghoyan Drohe and Vaes Khadokh?

The Lands of Ice and Fire are the official maps. But when the text contradicts what the maps show, the text wins, of course.

Of course, an absence of a mentioning in text does not necessarily mean that the information from the maps is wrong :)

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

Not in my version. :dunno:

Differences have been observed before between prints and kindle versions. Do you have a UK print (Harper Voyager)? Or US (Bantam)? And could you perhaps check which print you have?

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I checked two UK (Harper Voyager) kindle versions: one updated in 2015 and another in 2017, both are "Lion's Paw".

Here's another report of "Lion's Paw", probably a UK paperback printed in 2011.

All US versions as far as I know, are "Lion's Teeth".

Edited by zionius

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Two questions.

First is antropological.

Elmar is described as smaller than boys his age. Can age of his father be reason for that?

Is there any interaction between Arya and Cat in the books, not counting Nymeria pulling Catelyn out of water?

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16 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Two questions.

First is antropological.

Elmar is described as smaller than boys his age. Can age of his father be reason for that?

Is there any interaction between Arya and Cat in the books, not counting Nymeria pulling Catelyn out of water?

In answer to number two, not on page, exactly. The closest is at Winterfell (maybe Arya I, GoT) which ends with Arya returning to her room to find Septa Mordane and her mother waiting, after having ran off from needlework with Myrcella 

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On 8/29/2018 at 7:13 PM, zionius said:

I checked two UK (Harper Voyager) kindle versions: one updated in 2015 and another in 2017, both are "Lion's Paw".

Here's another report of "Lion's Paw", probably a UK paperback printed in 2011.

All US versions as far as I know, are "Lion's Teeth".

Mine is Harper Voyager too, 2011. Sansa remembers the sword as Lion's Paw in Clash, but reverts to Lion's Tooth in Swords (ASOS - SANSA IV).

I'd go with the version in the most up to date editions, except that asearchoficeandfire.com has Lion's Tooth in both chapters, and that's even easier to update.

Still, from his quoted words, it sounds like grrm wanted Lion's Paw. Strange!

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@zionius, is there a difference in those editions of ASOS between Arya's recollection of the sword's name?

 

For what it is worth, my 2011 edition of Clash (Bantam) has Sansa stating "Lion's Tooth" in ACOK.

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I'd go with the version in the most up to date editions, except that asearchoficeandfire.com has Lion's Tooth in both chapters, and that's even easier to update.

That website is not an official asoiaf-website, and as such contains several other errors which have since publication been corrected (but which still feature in numerous earlier editions).

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4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa remembers the sword as Lion's Paw in Clash,

Seems like it's always Lion's Paw in ACOK UK editions. Though we need to check an earlier print to be certain. Could @Werthead please enlighten us on this issue?

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

is there a difference in those editions of ASOS between Arya's recollection of the sword's name?

It's always Lion's Tooth in the Sansa chapter and Lion's Paw in the Arya chapter in US/UK editions of ASOS. Strange!

Edited by zionius

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1 hour ago, zionius said:

Seems like it's always Lion's Paw in ACOK UK editions. Though we need to check an earlier print to be certain. Could @Werthead please enlighten us on this issue?

It's always Lion's Tooth in the Sansa chapter and Lion's Paw in the Arya chapter in US/UK editions of ASOS. Strange!

For the Sansa ASoS chapter, it's Lion's Tooth in the 1st UK Edition of ASoS (one-volume tradeback, July 2000) and the 2011 mass-market paperback reprint.

For the Arya ASoS chapter, it's Lion's Paw in the 1st UK Edition of ASoS and the 2011 mass-market paperback reprint.

For the ACoK Sansa chapter, it's Lion's Paw in the 1999, 2003 and 2011 editions of the UK mmpb.

I don't have any of the US editions to check.

Edited by Werthead

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4 hours ago, Werthead said:

For the ACoK Sansa chapter, it's Lion's Paw in the 1999, 2003 and 2011 editions of the UK mmpb.

Great, thanks!

 

Considering the US 1st print of ACOK is four months later than UK 1st print, and the use of Lion's Tooth in ASOS Sanssa chapter, seems like GRRM changed his mind after the UK 1st print was out, as said here:

Quote

[TEXT DIFFERENCES IN A CLASH OF KINGS] The changes are very minor -- mostly a few typos we caught in time to correct for the US edition, after the British edition had already gone to press. -SSM, Nov. 23, 1998.

However, from my comparison of US/UK kindle versions of ACOK, in fact the UK version has more contents and fewer mistakes, so weird...

Edited by zionius

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How come when Cersei is being tried by the high septon she can't use Robert Strong as her champion because he wasn't a member of the kingsguard, but when Tyrion was on trial for Joffrey's murder, Cersei was able to use the mountain as her champion, even though he wasn't a member of the kingsguard? I thought the kingsguard had to champion in all matters regarding to the king or the royal family.

Edited by kleevedge

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1 hour ago, kleevedge said:

How come when Cersei is being tried by the high septon she can't use Robert Strong as her champion because he wasn't a member of the kingsguard, but when Tyrion was on trial for Joffrey's murder, Cersei was able to use the mountain as her champion, even though he wasn't a member of the kingsguard? I thought the kingsguard had to champion in all matters regarding to the king or the royal family.

I think the difference is that with Tyrion she was the accuser, not the accused. The kingsguard only needs to defend the royal family, not fight for them when they are the accusers. So the Mountain could be picked in that case. Just as Ilyn Payne does the executions and not some random kingsguard.

Edited by Deepbollywood Motte

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6 minutes ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

I think the difference is that with Tyrion she was the accuser, not the accused. The kingsguard only needs to defend the royal family, not fight for them when they are the accusers. So the Mountain could be picked in that case. Just as Ilyn Payne does the executions and not some random kingsguard.

a quick google search led me to the answer and you are correct

Quote

When the person who stands accused is a member of the royal family, their champion has to be a knight of the Kingsguard.[3] When the accuser is royalty, however, they are within their rights to select a champion who is not a sworn member of the Kingsguard.[4]

but as for an execution I wouldn't really call that a trial to determine guilt, normally guilt has been decided by that point.

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I got a question that I was wondering.

do we actually see a white walker pick up one of Craster’s sons in the text? Or were they just saying that the White Walkers pick them up?

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