[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[WinterPool Stark]

Just now, Ser Quork said:

Have to say, one of my favourite moments is when Cersei wants to leave the sept - "No."  Tiny word; huge impact.   Loved it.

Agreed. It hits you like a mofo!

[A Ghost of Someone]

Just now, WinterPool Stark said:

It's possible they tried to do what GRRM does in his books by giving us Cersei's PoV in Feast. He kinda manipulates the reader in to 'feeling' for Cersei. Obviously D&D went super basic with it and felt that was the only way they can do it?

Well, it gives more of her backstory, which really does not to me at least, make her sympathetic. If anything, it reveals how she killed her friend as a child and how, despite playing her victim of a wife to Robert, she admits to fucking Jamei on the day of her wedding so she never intended to be or at least try to be a loving wife/queen to Robert. In fact, she secretly hated him for killing Rheagar as she always thought until her father's offer was rejected, that she was to be his Queen.

[WinterPool Stark]

1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Well, it gives more of her backstory, which really does not to me at least, make her sympathetic. If anything, it reveals how she killed her friend as a child and how, despite playing her victim of a wife to Robert, she admits to fucking Jamei on the day of her wedding so she never intended to be or at least try to be a loving wife/queen to Robert. In fact, she secretly hated him for killing Rheagar as she always thought until her father's offer was rejected, that she was to be his Queen.

I'm not feeling you on the Robert example, Robert was a bit of a dick!

[Cas Stark]

I have never felt sorry for Cersei, not even during the walk of shame.  She deserved worse.  She is one of the absolute worst characters in the story.

[A Ghost of Someone]

13 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

I'm not feeling you on the Robert example, Robert was a bit of a dick!

Robert was more than a bit of a dick. He was a womanizer from hell. No question about it. I do not think it would have changed if Lyanna lived but then again, neither one of them went into that marriage committed to each other. Still, it does not give Cersei the right to have placed incest bastards in the royal nursery and cause the horrors as a result of those actions with such determined narcissism.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

2 hours ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

Whether Tyrion will survive the series or not (he could die at the very end), Cersei is doomed from the start, it's not like it's big news. She would die even if she didn't meet him.

Btw, D.Benioff fave character is Sansa and it's a well known fact.

Then, if Tyrion is always right we get "oh, of course St. Tyrion is always right!", if he makes judgement mistakes and his plans totally backfire (as in the last episode), we get nothing or 'hey he's still St. Tyrion tough!". I would expect a tiny little bit of self-criticism, like 'in this episode, to be fair, there was no St. Tyrion, they had him make a big mistake'.

The fact I like book-Tyrion and PD's portrayal of show Tyrion doesn't make me blind. I can recognize when there is bad writing, I don't blindly follow any fan theory about him and so on. I would appreciate the same objectivity.

Personally - first and only post I'm gonna write about it, whether I agree or disagree with a possible reply -  I think the nickname Saint Tyrion is annoying in itself, there are many characters I don't like - or whose show-portrayal I don't like - but I don't call them names in every single post I write like you do, because I respect the people who like them and I know they might find it annoying (even if now they would go like 'oh easy, I wouldn't care, I wouldn't be annoyed at all... '). You don't use those nicknames to make your point understood or ridicule D&D, you use them specifically to annoy people who think differently from you and I concede it works, but I also think it's quite sad that an adult person behaves like that and it sets the bar really low.

I understand you're some kind of big member on this website, with thousand comments and stuff and probably an army of members ready to defend your position, I get that you clearly don't want only to express your opinion but you want to influence other people and convince them you are right - that's quite evident - but there are many ways of doing this and some are more polite than others.I think one should be able to make their point without being unpolite or somehow disrespectful to other people's feelings. It's just fictional characters, but the fact people write so many posts about them mean we all 'care' somehow, you first.

Interestingly, it's ONLY the people who dislike Tyrion or show Tyrion who act like that, while the people who dislike other characters' portrayals express their opinion in other ways.

Fox example, in the books Shae is a whore in for money through and through, while in the show Shae has been turned into Saint-Shae / I'm-so-in-love-Shae...I haven't see people rambling endlessly about it and I don't call her Saint Shae in every post.

Sandor the Hound is much more violent and fuc** up in the books than he is in the show, they made him way more likeable changing some book points / interations, but it's not like people complain about it all the time as people who call Tyrion St Tyrion do, nor I go and criticize him in every post bragging about Mr.RedemptionsongSandor (not even after the last episode and he heading north for a totally not banal and not expected reunion).

Both Jon and Daenerys have been really 'shaped' in a' peculiar' way in the show and are as lucky as Tyrion, Jon has literally resurrected from death and I don't call him JesusJon, Daenerys is untouchable whatever happens to her...but I don't go around calling her ImmortalDaenerys. I can critize them, but I don't need to be derisive.

And so on (Jamie vs. showJamie, etc.).

People like who they like and dislike who they dislike both in the books and the show, fine, but I make my point known without being intentionally derisive and unpolite, it's just a matter of sensibility. Calling characters other people like names all.the.time. is just vulgar, it doesn't help your arguments, it doesn't make them more valid and make no mistake, it's not even sarcasm, because sarcasm is subtle and doesn't need cheesy nicknames. Whether you're right or wrong in your interpretation, as Maggie Smith would say, vulgarity is not substitute for wit.

Um no bro.  We call him St. Tyrion because D&D have warped our beloved 'Tyrion' character into a terrible boring useless character who is never wrong and never makes mistakes and who is propped up by Varys while constantly making stupid cockless jokes at his expense.  PD is a great actor and it's not his fault but he is painful to watch because the writing is so bad.  And what really pisses us all off is that the show is derived from some of The Greatest writing around right now, so it makes the show doubly hard to watch since it is casually destroying our favorite GD books!!  Calling the characters on the show a different name than the books serves one purpose, separating the wonderful, well-developed book characters from the trash that D$D have created......Or did you actually enjoy the 5 minutes of beetle crushing re-hash when Tyrion was awaiting trial in KL?  Because those were some of the worst moments in my entire entertainment life history.

[WinterPool Stark]

3 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Um no bro.  We call him St. Tyrion because D&D have warped our beloved 'Tyrion' character into a terrible boring useless character who is never wrong and never makes mistakes and who is propped up by Varys while constantly making stupid cockless jokes at his expense.  PD is a great actor and it's not his fault but he is painful to watch because the writing is so bad.  And what really pisses us all off is that the show is derived from some of The Greatest writing around right now, so it makes the show doubly hard to watch since it is casually destroying our favorite GD books!!  Calling the character son the show a different name than the books serves one purpose, separating the wonderful, well-developed book characters from the trash that D$D have created......Or did you actually enjoy the 5 minutes of beetle crushing re-hash when TYrion was awaiting trial in KL?  Because those were some of the worst moments in my entire entertainment life history.

 

Amen!

 

 

 

(though the Actors smashed that Beetle-smashing scene and I liked it )

[SerMixalot]

9 hours ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

i was thinking about this and I can't decide which is worse for a character; If D&D like them or hate them.  I mean the  ones they hate, Jaime, Ned Stark, Sansa, Jon, Stannis have been completely broken and destroyed and reduced to a pile of ash. But what they've done to the ones they like is possibly worse!! Cersei, Tyrion, Dany, Littlefinger and Ramsay!!!!  I honestly think the characters of Carol and ST. Tyrion merit criminal charges and I'm probably calling a lawyer.

Better Call Saul

[Suzanna Stormborn]

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I have never felt sorry for Cersei, not even during the walk of shame.  She deserved worse.  She is one of the absolute worst characters in the story.

Agreed, I couldnt believe the walk of shame was an actual thing when I read the books. But I never once felt sorry for her when reading.  She is AWFUL, like the worst ever.  Her inner monologue is so psychotic, but the difference is that you really understand her in the books.  She makes no sense on the show though.  I guess they are trying to make her a powder keg but they arent doing a good job, she never even has any wine in her hand anymore, did she go to AA? I'm not sure

 

[Cas Stark]

Just now, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Agreed, I couldnt believe the walk of shame was an actual thing when I read the books. But I never once felt sorry for her when reading.  She is AWFUL, like the worst ever.  Her inner monologue is so psychotic, but the difference is that you really understand her in the books.  She makes no sense on the show though.  I guess they are trying to make her a powder keg but they arent doing a good job, she never even has any wine in her hand anymore, did she go to AA? I'm not sure

 

Yeah, I assume her not going crazy, not ranting, not being paranoid on the show is to increase the SHOCK value when she will finally go over the edge in a single segment and burn down KL.

But, if you ask me, sacrificing all of the fantastic opportunities for Lena to play Cersei from Feast, a descent into total irrationality, for a single "shocking" scene was a poor choice.  Especially since they've totally telegraphed that she's going to order KL burned down.  So, they can't even really effectively make that a shocking moment except for the viewers who pay the least attention, everyone who is paying attention is expecting this.  

The show is TERRIBLE at foreshadowing.  It either does not exist at all or is so clumsy and obvious it can't even count as foreshadowing because they've beaten you over the head w/what will happen.

[A bowl of brown]

To be fair i did feel sorry for her during the walk of shame because she was punished for having consensual sex not actually any of her crimes. If she'd been executed for treason or murder or whatever i would have felt no sympathy whatsoever.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

8 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Better Call Saul

Lol, good idea.  

So I was re-reading some Jaime chapters from FFC and that conversation he has with Edmure is almost verbatim......Of course, except for the 'I love Cersei' shit...............How is this a good addition? Like who....who thinks it makes sense or it's a good idea? Why does Larry need to love Carol so much?  Is it because he is going to be SO ANGRY when she dies and then he can have a revenge story like everyone else? For real what could possibly be the reason?  In the books him and Cersei at least understand that Tommen's King-ship is based on him being Robert's son, so they don't just tell everyone they see.....Have D$D forgotten about Robert completely? 

[SerMixalot]

Is it me or would it be David Lynchian levels of bizarre if Sansa marries LF? I mean how convoluted do you have to write something for that to be the outcome

watch LF marry Sansa in the books

 

[Chebyshov]

5 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Lol, good idea.  

So I was re-reading some Jaime chapters from FFC and that conversation he has with Edmure is almost verbatim......Of course, except for the 'I love Cersei' shit...............How is this a good addition? Like who....who thinks it makes sense or it's a good idea? Why does Larry need to love Carol so much?  Is it because he is going to be SO ANGRY when she dies and then he can have a revenge story like everyone else? For real what could possibly be the reason?  In the books him and Cersei at least understand that Tommen's King-ship is based on him being Robert's son, so they don't just tell everyone they see.....Have D$D forgotten about Robert completely? 

There's also the fact that Larry is such a stoopid that he needed Brienne to tell him his only chance of keeping his honor is to try and bloodlessly lift the siege. Because Larry doesn't get an arc of his own or anything. He just casually regresses back to his PILOT EPISODE characterization and his motivations are erratic ("this castle belongs to the FREYS but yes take the Tully army north to help beat the Boltons on the side of the Starks this makes all the sense").

[Suzanna Stormborn]

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, I assume her not going crazy, not ranting, not being paranoid on the show is to increase the SHOCK value when she will finally go over the edge in a single segment and burn down KL.

But, if you ask me, sacrificing all of the fantastic opportunities for Lena to play Cersei from Feast, a descent into total irrationality, for a single "shocking" scene was a poor choice.  Especially since they've totally telegraphed that she's going to order KL burned down.  So, they can't even really effectively make that a shocking moment except for the viewers who pay the least attention, everyone who is paying attention is expecting this.  

The show is TERRIBLE at foreshadowing.  It either does not exist at all or is so clumsy and obvious it can't even count as foreshadowing because they've beaten you over the head w/what will happen.

Yeah they did have a great  opportunity there to make it so good with Lena going nuts....For some reason they cannot write a complicated scene.  Almost everyone on the show has taken on a Deadpans style of acting at this point. (Just stand there and say shit, no hand-movements, no realism)... They must all be as pissed off as we are.

[SerMixalot]

46 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

19 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Agreed, I couldnt believe the walk of shame was an actual thing when I read the books. But I never once felt sorry for her when reading.  She is AWFUL, like the worst ever.  Her inner monologue is so psychotic, but the difference is that you really understand her in the books.  She makes no sense on the show though.  I guess they are trying to make her a powder keg but they arent doing a good job, she never even has any wine in her hand anymore, did she go to AA? I'm not sure

 

 

That is one of the things that GRRM does very well-playing on people's inherent empathy.  That and give realistic and understandable and consistent motivations for his characters.

[Ser Quork]

35 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I have never felt sorry for Cersei, not even during the walk of shame.  She deserved worse.  She is one of the absolute worst characters in the story.

Word.  There's an awful lot of hand-wringing about Cersei's walk of shame and yet that kind of sexual humiliation (or something equally repellent) is exactly what she was contriving for Margaery so she could dispose of her rival for power.   She was hoist with her own petard in that respect. So, yes, I can  agree the walk of shame is repugnant as a standalone punishment, and I can admire how GRRM made me feel Cersei's mortification, but I didn't feel it shouldn't have happened to that particular character.  (My grandmother used to say, "Do as you would be done by." - in that sense, if anyone ever deserved that punishment, it would be Cersei.)

18 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Agreed, I couldnt believe the walk of shame was an actual thing when I read the books. But I never once felt sorry for her when reading.  She is AWFUL, like the worst ever.  Her inner monologue is so psychotic, but the difference is that you really understand her in the books.  She makes no sense on the show though.  I guess they are trying to make her a powder keg but they arent doing a good job, she never even has any wine in her hand anymore, did she go to AA? I'm not sure

 

She was knocking back a glass on the last episode.

The trouble with their storytelling is that we've had her do "I'll burn their cities to the ground" a couple of times (although Myrcella remains spectacularly unavenged ) and that will be considered "great foreshadowing" by some when she finally ignites the wildfire.  Ho hum.  So far, so dull.  

[A Ghost of Someone]

33 minutes ago, A bowl of brown said:

To be fair i did feel sorry for her during the walk of shame because she was punished for having consensual sex not actually any of her crimes. If she'd been executed for treason or murder or whatever i would have felt no sympathy whatsoever.

The show's objective is to make the Faith look absolutely awful and massively oppressive. A complete opposite in the books where the potential for Adultry by reigning Queens, murder of the King and other murders paid for by sex given by the Queen and or Dowager Queen and to also give false testimony is the issues at hand, not this crap on TV.

[A bowl of brown]

38 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The show's objective is to make the Faith look absolutely awful and massively oppressive. A complete opposite in the books where the potential for Adultry by reigning Queens, murder of the King and other murders paid for by sex given by the Queen and or Dowager Queen and to also give false testimony is the issues at hand, not this crap on TV.

Sorry, I meant the books. I don't like Cersei and think she deserves death,  I just don't think she deserved that horrendous walk (because no one does). The show doesn't really make me feel anything anymore except for the odd its so bad its funny moment. The last episode was actually so ridiculous I stopped even trying to compare it to the books.

And yeah its probably the wrong thread to debate it.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

So I was re-reading some Jaime chapters from FFC and that conversation he has with Edmure is almost verbatim......Of course, except for the 'I love Cersei' shit...............How is this a good addition? Like who....who thinks it makes sense or it's a good idea? Why does Larry need to love Carol so much?  Is it because he is going to be SO ANGRY when she dies and then he can have a revenge story like everyone else? For real what could possibly be the reason?

So it will be SHOCKING when he turns on her. It can't possibly be a long, gradual realization by Jaime how toxic the relationship always has been, it can't be as if he's slowly awakening from some nightmare. That's not HUGELY DRAMATICALLY SATISFYING, that's boring.

D&D&C are doing the same with the Starks. They have to be shoved down into the lowest possible place, then shoved down some more. Because how else can we possibly cheer ourselves hoarse and fist-pump like bros when they're suddenly SHOCKINGLY completely restored to power? It'll be SO DRAMATIC!

You can't have characters who execute their long-term plans and slowly, gradually move themselves toward their goals (you know, like actual real people do)! How boring and mundane! Reversals of fortune are so much more DRAMATICALLY SATISFYING when they come out of nowhere!