[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[Tijgy]

4 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

mmmm....

if Jon dies, he can be resurrected again 

LSH didn't have that opportunity because she is not a SUper.

But apparently people even do not longer get injured by so many stab wounds so I am not really sure Jon is going to die. Because you know ... Super. Did Arya became one of the Supers now she survived those stab wounds? 

If Jon lost all his charisma, I am not really sure what is going to happen next. This is going to be bad. 

[SerMixalot]

6 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Fruit can be expensive. 

I think they spend the extra money probably on something useless for their BIG BATTLE in THE AWESOME EPISODE 9. 

That must be why the vendors were more concerned about gathering the spilt fruit than helping the wounded child at their feet

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

But apparently people even do not longer get injured by so many stab wounds so I am not really sure Jon is going to die. Because you know ... Super. Did Arya became one of the Supers now she survived those stab wounds? 

Yes!!!!! I forgot to mention that!!!! I thought the same when watching the scenes!!! Maybe that's another reason I liked it!!

She became a sUper for one episode!!!

but: Daenerys has returned, and Cersei faces her trial. Tyrion has TO SAVE A CITY and JON command a MASSIVE army.

Bye Arya, not super again.

[Meera of Tarth]

3 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

That must be why the vendors were more concerned about gathering the spilt fruit than helping the wounded child at their feet

well braavosis don't care about people running or being stabbed 

[The Fattest Leech]

58 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

QUOTER BROKEN AGAIN  IGNORE THIS POST  

[SerMixalot]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

59 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

 

Much better than I could have stated it!

[The Fattest Leech]

27 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Fruit can be expensive. 

I think they spend the extra money probably on something useless for their BIG BATTLE in THE AWESOME EPISODE 9. 

Fruit can be expensive. They couldn't even get Renly a peach for gawds sake! 

[Tijgy]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Fruit can be expensive. They couldn't even get Renly a peach for gawds sake! 

I always will find the peach story kind of weird. Is it really that difficult to find one in Northern Ireland 

WAIT, they were at least some citrus fruits. I think I even saw some lemons!!!!

[SerMixalot]

Just want to point out that Arya will likely be heading back to the Twins, which is where she was literally 2 seasons ago, so Bravos was seriously a wasted trip.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Just want to point out that Arya will likely be heading back to the Twins, which is where she was literally 2 seasons ago, so Bravos was seriously a wasted trip.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only theme this year is recycling. Recycling dialogue, recycling jokes, recycling characters in to very out of place situations.  

[SerMixalot]

Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only theme this year is recycling. Recycling dialogue, recycling jokes, recycling characters in to very out of place situations.  

recycling people-jon, sandor, arya-you cant convince me she didn't die from those stab wounds

[Karmarni]

3 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

Just want to point out that Arya will likely be heading back to the Twins, which is where she was literally 2 seasons ago, so Bravos was seriously a wasted trip.

All the Starks 'side journeys' have been wasted in one way or another on the show. Arya goes to Braavos and she learns to get hit by a stick, do some parkour and outmaneuver in the dark, killing the Waif. What new was learned? Being blind and parkour. No character development, she's still Arya Stark and she still has vengeance on her mind. Waste.

Sansa goes to the Vale, whips up a feather dress, tells LF she knows what he wants and then proceeds to leave the Vale with him and pursue Jeyne Poole and Stannis' storyline. No character development, she was Alayne for a second, but that only served for her to rescue LF. What new was learned? Stay away from Ramsay Bolton. Waste.

Bran skips a season and then proceeds down vision lane. He's a bystander in the past, looking around and sometimes breaking through, only to lose Hodor in the process. No character development, no curiosity or growth concerning his skills. What new was learned? He's a cinemascope viewer. I guess that's only a partial waste, since we get to see what he sees. But as for Bran and his character? What's new? Nothing.

Jon was resurrected and short of a few moments with Tormund and Edd, he's gotten over it just fine. What new was learned? Could he have possibly learned he's a warg? Hell no. Starks are boring. Waste.

[TheCasualObserver]

Since we have a battle episode coming up, I thought I'd recap the battle episodes of previous seasons. I will get around to complaining about season 6, have no fear.

S1: No battle. The whispering wood and the battle of the red fork were both cut for cost reasons. Nonetheless, the politics and characters creating the context of the battle were very strong. And of course, S1 is the best season of the show; it is possible to make great GOT episodes without a huge fight being shown on screen.

S2: Blackwater. No snark or sarcasm - genuinely one of the best episodes of television ever made. But a huge part of this is the fact that it adapts the book and the characters within the battle so well. Davos' caution. Stannis' determination. Sansa's goodness and kindness under pressure. Cersei's alcholism and generally nastiness and cruelty. The pain of the Hound. The weary and blase attitude of Bronn. The bravery and pathos of Tyrion. Pod's unwavering loyalty.

It's an impressive collision of characters and conflicting loyalties all directed by the excellent Neil Marshal doing his best with a limited budget. The battle is at night for cost reasons and there is only one wildfyre ship, but these changes are perfectly acceptable and even help set the mood. A great episode which elevated an otherwise choppy season which had, until ep 9, struggled with adapting some of the material. (Tyrion being another highlight).

S3: The Red Wedding. The big shock of the series and, in retrospect, it's creative downfall, the Red wedding was certainly effective and we had been given plenty of primers to understand what was happening, who was involved and most importantly, why this shit was going down. With one exception. None of my show only friends were interested in the quibble I had about Talisa's presence, but for me it tarnished the entire episode, and for a very specific reason.

It was more obvious to book readers, but Talisa being at the Red wedding was devised entirely so that the audience could be shocked and repulsed at the sight of a pregnant woman being repeatedly stabbed in the stomach. Not only was that violence more stomach churning than a lot of what we'd seen before, but it also ran counter to the logic of the plot. The wedding was happening because Robb was trying (and tragically failing) to make amends with Walder Frey for marrying Talisa. Bringing Talisa to the wedding is sheer idiocy of the highest order. Walder points it out (with his repugnant "tits and a tight fit remark") that he is still being insulted even as he is asked for forgiveness. The show didn't have an answer to it and that really ruffled my feathers. I've watched my fair share of horror, slasher and exploitation films when I was younger, so I know when a plot or a character is being twisted for the sake or shock and gore and I'm inured to it... but not when this was absent from the show it's adapting. It was a bitter taste after a third season I'd enjoyed more than two. They intentionally went further than GRRM did and they were rewarded for it; in retrospect this set a precedent which has crippled the show now, without stopping it's popularity.

S4: Watchers on the wall. This one fell completely flat. The biggest episode so far in terms of budget and with Neil Marshal back for another battle, the setup was meandering all season. We understood what was happening and who was involved, but it had all taken far too long and felt stretched. There weren't enough characters we cared about in the North and certainly none we felt were in any real danger. I liked Alliser Thorne showing suprising steel when he needed to and Ygritte's death was well handled, but ultimately there wasn't enough investment in the characters. Green and Pyp's death was well done, but we'd spent no more than a few minutes with them across the entire series, so that was a bust as well. At the time I considered it an admirable failure, and in retrospect was the last bit of fun the show ever gave me, since my relationship with GOT season 4 was otherwise one long rough patch and episode 10 was the proverbial divorce papers being served. 

S5: Hardhome. A well executed action scene which perked up an abominable shitfest of a season. Hardhome's greatest strength was it's simplicity; a terrifying battle royale against a zombie horde, transcending the usual politics which effected the other three battle scenes (and which Blackwater got best by far).

However, I was surprised by just how popular the ep was - in scope and scale it was an achievement, I am forced to admit, but the stakes still weren't very high. No character not introduced in this episode died (except Rattle shirt and he definitely doesn't count)  and we only get a general sense that the Night's King raising the dead is bad - we don't actually know by what factor he has increased his forces because we don't know how many zombies he had before. We also don't give a shit about a mass of faceless wildling and care even less about the village of Hardhome. What politics that were included in the episode were ridiculous ("Jon Snow didn't need to come" - Tormund pointing out the pointlessness of it all) and in later episodes the battle had no effect on any particular plot. Jon didn't use it to justify his wildling policy and the mutineers certainly didn't let it change their minds about killing Jon. Hardhome made a big splash and sunk without trace, which wasn't true of any of the previous battles. Nonetheless, it made a refreshing change from either nothing happening in season 5 (making up about 70% of the season) or some things happening so stupid I got a hernia from watching. (You might guess the Dornish plot or Cersei's train ride to idiot town, but it was Sansa in winterfell that really got me). 

So - season 6 and the battle of the bastards. What can we expect, judging from the last five seasons? Season 1s budget problems are long gone, but so is season 2s adherence to the source material and political nous. Also, the lesson learned during the Red wedding (GOTs popularity is predicated entirely upon doing whatever appals it's audience the most) have been taken to heart so tightly by the showrunners it could probably do keyhole surgery on them. 

We are also in the odd position of being roughly sure of what's going to happen. The show is already in danger of repeating itself from season 5 (small army marching from the wall in poor conditions against a superior opponent) so it would be a storytelling culdesac to let Ramsay win again, and there's nothing left for Jon, Sansa and Davos to do if that happens. Stark victory is a lock but only with LF's help. The details are hazy, but the general result can be predicted with ease. 

However, the politics of this battle are so lazy, so stupid, so utterly without thought, it's almost not worth critiquing them. You'll notice I said "almost".

To sum up; no side is acting rationally. Starting with the Stark team, the wildlings are marching to their deaths without a plan to counter Ramsay's superior numbers. Jon is marching because of some predetermined time limit he has not shared with his men, Sansa, or us. Sansa is marching because her character failed to act with political foresight when presented with an army for free and has now got that army on side when it is almost too late and will have a hefty price to pay later. Great job Sansa - she continues to be incompetent in a season where the show is straining desperately to prove that raping her was the right storytelling call.

But these problems pale in comparison to the Bolton team, because I have no idea why a "Bolton team" even exists. With neither the support of the crown nor a Stark bride, Ramsay has no legal claim to the North or lordship of winterfell. He has no allies after killing Walda. He shouldn't have the support of Bolton men, because who would follow the man who murdered your leige lord and his son? Why exactly does ANYONE listen when he gives the order to march? Lord Karstark is so devoted to avenging his father's death and destroying the starks he will sign on with a psychotic murderer so that he can kill the half brother of the dead guy responsible and ensure that Ramsay gets his bride back so that the next ruler of the North... will be half Stark. This seems counterproductive if Stark hate is your only character trait. 

Jon Umber is a dumbass. There's no point going into any more detail at this point.

 

So there you have it - without actually seeing it we can tell what will happen, that the politics will be idiotic, the characters inconsistent and the action broad and impressive thanks to a huge budget. Since this season was a snooze fest like the last, (and immediately following an episode even hardcore fans were underwhelmed by) it will also be incredibly well received, praised as pioneering television and ensure that GOT is lavished with awards later in the year, so buckle up and prepare for that.

When all this happens, just remember one thing; back in 2011, the show adapted Martin's novel faithfully and the results made for intelligent and intriguing television (with the occasional "play with her pussy" on hand to ruin things). Let's ignore what GOT's become and raise a glass to better times.

[Ruhail]

58 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

mmmm....

if Jon dies, he can be resurrected again 

LSH didn't have that opportunity because she is not a SUper.

If that happens he'll probably start crying. I think he said in the promo if he dies dont bring him back LOL so much enthusiasm and motivation to lead eh?

[Ruhail]

31 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I always will find the peach story kind of weird. Is it really that difficult to find one in Northern Ireland 

WAIT, they were at least some citrus fruits. I think I even saw some lemons!!!!

Whats the peach story?

8 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Since we have a battle episode coming up, I thought I'd recap the battle episodes of previous seasons. I will get around to complaining about season 6, have no fear.

S1: No battle. The whispering wood and the battle of the red fork were both cut for cost reasons. Nonetheless, the politics and characters creating the context of the battle were very strong. And of course, S1 is the best season of the show; it is possible to make great GOT episodes without a huge fight being shown on screen.

S2: Blackwater. No snark or sarcasm - genuinely one of the best episodes of television ever made. But a huge part of this is the fact that it adapts the book and the characters within the battle so well. Davos' caution. Stannis' determination. Sansa's goodness and kindness under pressure. Cersei's alcholism and generally nastiness and cruelty. The pain of the Hound. The weary and blase attitude of Bronn. The bravery and pathos of Tyrion. Pod's unwavering loyalty.

It's an impressive collision of characters and conflicting loyalties all directed by the excellent Neil Marshal doing his best with a limited budget. The battle is at night for cost reasons and there is only one wildfyre ship, but these changes are perfectly acceptable and even help set the mood. A great episode which elevated an otherwise choppy season which had, until ep 9, struggled with adapting some of the material. (Tyrion being another highlight).

S3: The Red Wedding. The big shock of the series and, in retrospect, it's creative downfall, the Red wedding was certainly effective and we had been given plenty of primers to understand what was happening, who was involved and most importantly, why this shit was going down. With one exception. None of my show only friends were interested in the quibble I had about Talisa's presence, but for me it tarnished the entire episode, and for a very specific reason.

It was more obvious to book readers, but Talisa being at the Red wedding was devised entirely so that the audience could be shocked and repulsed at the sight of a pregnant woman being repeatedly stabbed in the stomach. Not only was that violence more stomach churning than a lot of what we'd seen before, but it also ran counter to the logic of the plot. The wedding was happening because Robb was trying (and tragically failing) to make amends with Walder Frey for marrying Talisa. Bringing Talisa to the wedding is sheer idiocy of the highest order. Walder points it out (with his repugnant "tits and a tight fit remark") that he is still being insulted even as he is asked for forgiveness. The show didn't have an answer to it and that really ruffled my feathers. I've watched my fair share of horror, slasher and exploitation films when I was younger, so I know when a plot or a character is being twisted for the sake or shock and gore and I'm inured to it... but not when this was absent from the show it's adapting. It was a bitter taste after a third season I'd enjoyed more than two. They intentionally went further than GRRM did and they were rewarded for it; in retrospect this set a precedent which has crippled the show now, without stopping it's popularity.

S4: Watchers on the wall. This one fell completely flat. The biggest episode so far in terms of budget and with Neil Marshal back for another battle, the setup was meandering all season. We understood what was happening and who was involved, but it had all taken far too long and felt stretched. There weren't enough characters we cared about in the North and certainly none we felt were in any real danger. I liked Alliser Thorne showing suprising steel when he needed to and Ygritte's death was well handled, but ultimately there wasn't enough investment in the characters. Green and Pyp's death was well done, but we'd spent no more than a few minutes with them across the entire series, so that was a bust as well. At the time I considered it an admirable failure, and in retrospect was the last bit of fun the show ever gave me, since my relationship with GOT season 4 was otherwise one long rough patch and episode 10 was the proverbial divorce papers being served. 

S5: Hardhome. A well executed action scene which perked up an abominable shitfest of a season. Hardhome's greatest strength was it's simplicity; a terrifying battle royale against a zombie horde, transcending the usual politics which effected the other three battle scenes (and which Blackwater got best by far).

However, I was surprised by just how popular the ep was - in scope and scale it was an achievement, I am forced to admit, but the stakes still weren't very high. No character not introduced in this episode died (except Rattle shirt and he definitely doesn't count)  and we only get a general sense that the Night's King raising the dead is bad - we don't actually know by what factor he has increased his forces because we don't know how many zombies he had before. We also don't give a shit about a mass of faceless wildling and care even less about the village of Hardhome. What politics that were included in the episode were ridiculous ("Jon Snow didn't need to come" - Tormund pointing out the pointlessness of it all) and in later episodes the battle had no effect on any particular plot. Jon didn't use it to justify his wildling policy and the mutineers certainly didn't let it change their minds about killing Jon. Hardhome made a big splash and sunk without trace, which wasn't true of any of the previous battles. Nonetheless, it made a refreshing change from either nothing happening in season 5 (making up about 70% of the season) or some things happening so stupid I got a hernia from watching. (You might guess the Dornish plot or Cersei's train ride to idiot town, but it was Sansa in winterfell that really got me). 

So - season 6 and the battle of the bastards. What can we expect, judging from the last five seasons? Season 1s budget problems are long gone, but so is season 2s adherence to the source material and political nous. Also, the lesson learned during the Red wedding (GOTs popularity is predicated entirely upon doing whatever appals it's audience the most) have been taken to heart so tightly by the showrunners it could probably do keyhole surgery on them. 

We are also in the odd position of being roughly sure of what's going to happen. The show is already in danger of repeating itself from season 5 (small army marching from the wall in poor conditions against a superior opponent) so it would be a storytelling culdesac to let Ramsay win again, and there's nothing left for Jon, Sansa and Davos to do if that happens. Stark victory is a lock but only with LF's help. The details are hazy, but the general result can be predicted with ease. 

However, the politics of this battle are so lazy, so stupid, so utterly without thought, it's almost not worth critiquing them. You'll notice I said "almost".

To sum up; no side is acting rationally. Starting with the Stark team, the wildlings are marching to their deaths without a plan to counter Ramsay's superior numbers. Jon is marching because of some predetermined time limit he has not shared with his men, Sansa, or us. Sansa is marching because her character failed to act with political foresight when presented with an army for free and has now got that army on side when it is almost too late and will have a hefty price to pay later. Great job Sansa - she continues to be incompetent in a season where the show is straining desperately to prove that raping her was the right storytelling call.

But these problems pale in comparison to the Bolton team, because I have no idea why a "Bolton team" even exists. With neither the support of the crown nor a Stark bride, Ramsay has no legal claim to the North or lordship of winterfell. He has no allies after killing Walda. He shouldn't have the support of Bolton men, because who would follow the man who murdered your leige lord and his son? Why exactly does ANYONE listen when he gives the order to march? Lord Karstark is so devoted to avenging his father's death and destroying the starks he will sign on with a psychotic murderer so that he can kill the half brother of the dead guy responsible and ensure that Ramsay gets his bride back so that the next ruler of the North... will be half Stark. This seems counterproductive if Stark hate is your only character trait. 

Jon Umber is a dumbass. There's no point going into any more detail at this point.

 

So there you have it - without actually seeing it we can tell what will happen, that the politics will be idiotic, the characters inconsistent and the action broad and impressive thanks to a huge budget. Since this season was a snooze fest like the last, (and immediately following an episode even hardcore fans were underwhelmed by) it will also be incredibly well received, praised as pioneering television and ensure that GOT is lavished with awards later in the year, so buckle up and prepare for that.

When all this happens, just remember one thing; back in 2011, the show adapted Martin's novel faithfully and the results made for intelligent and intriguing television (with the occasional "play with her pussy" on hand to ruin things). Let's ignore what GOT's become and raise a glass to better times.

Wow that was excellent very well said mate.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

11 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

snipped for length but sorrowfully because this is a fantastic essay

Well said. Superb analysis.  

 

[Tijgy]

12 minutes ago, Ruhail said:

Whats the peach story?

21 minutes ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I think it is about Cogman's explanation why there was no peach scene with Renly and Stannis : there were no peach in Belfast that month or something like that 

[SerMixalot]

The Peach

 

In the books, when Renly and Stannis meet before the Shadowbaby, Renly offers Stannis a peach, an action that Stannis finds insulting and confusing.  It perfectly encapsulates Renly's arrogance.  It is kind of a semi-iconic moment in the books. 

Later Stannis says he will always remember Renly offering that stupid peach.

[SerMixalot]

some more info here: it got it's own page

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Renly's_peach

[Defiance@duskendale]

My main complaint with this season, is that its become too self knowing. I feel as if the writers have tried answering every single criticism that has ever been thrown at the show. Less female nudity /higher male nudity count, check, ''stronger'' female characters (which seems to translate as weaker male characters, i.e Loras) check, faster plot progression, check. And yet it all feels so hollow. So much has technically happened plot wise in the last 8 episodes but it doesn't really feel like that at all. There's been a serious lack of continuity and character arcs seem to fizzle out in a really unsatisfying way this year. Its as if the writers/showmakers are obsessed with creating 'OMG BREAK THE INTERNET' moments with zero interest in the long term investment it takes to authentically create these moments. It's well known that D&D were inspired to adapt the books after reading up to the red wedding. And honestly if you binge watch the series, you can see the decline in quality start soon after that point. It's strange thinking back to such compelling moments as Dany rising up from Drogo's funeral pyre with her dragons. I hadn't read the books at that point and that moment was honestly awe inspiring. And made all the more so because of everything that built up to that point, her relationship with her brother, her growing confidence as a Khaleesi and then her husbands demise etc. There was real investment there in telling a good story, and there was real emotional pay off because of this. The show makers have clearly lost their passion for it, and this shows. I know a lot of people like to argue that it's not their fault as the last two books are much harder to translate to screen, and they have a point. However, they've had the time to consider that, if it was a situation like the Harry Potter series for example and they only start adapting after the first three came out then fine, they wouldn't have seen it coming. But they came into it knowing what was on the table, I just don't understand why a decent plot outline wasn't planned out to avoid the inconsistencies they're dealing with now. The storytelling has become undeniably lazier, there's hardly any follow through these days. I think the Hounds sudden reappearance this season is the best example of this, it was so exposition heavy and its resolution was baffling. Was I supposed to care about the massacred villagers? Even the encounter with the BWB was entirely forgettable. I miss seeing memorable dialogue, the writing feels so tired now. The Stannis botch job seemed to have marked the beginning of the end for the series. And whats with the Red Woman anyway? Why include such a supposedly important scene with her in ep 1 and choose to do nothing with her for the next 7 episodes. Even Davos has been reduced, his allegiance to Jon Snow doesn't even make sense. Sure he saw potential in him in S5, and this was co signed by Stannis but beyond that? No real relationship between him and Jon was actually developed. And honestly for a man who was so devoted to Stannis and his cause he certainly got over his defeat quickly enough. Naturally a confrontation scene between him and Melissandre is coming once he discovers what happened to Shireen, but honestly I think it should have been done episodes ago when the betrayal was still fresh. But I guess none of this matters, the show rests easy now on fancy back drops and a committed fan base. As someone who's been invested in the series for a fair few years now, I will most likely follow it through to its conclusion but I very much fear it will amount to a 'Lost style' ending. It seems Game of Thrones is set to (very uncharacteristically) go out, not with a bang, but with a poorly realised totally nonsensical whimper.