[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Reprecussions - Season 6 Edition

[Ser Pollo Loco]

1 hour ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Where and when did you see that? Everything good that's happened to Ramsay has been completely unrelated to his actions. He was gifted Sansa, Rickon and the loyalty of the Karstarks and Umbers without needing to do anything himself. Losing next eps battle because LF shows up at the end will be unrelated to his actions as well.

I supposed they might have it that Ramsay agreed to let LF occupy Moat Cailen and later ride to help him and then LF stabs him in the back. But if that's the case then Ramsay Bolton will go down because he trusted somebody he shouldn't have, which is just about the strangest point the show will have ever made, and I'm including the one where Daario explained that frightened men hide in walls with incriminating evidence. 

And why would Ramsay trust LF anyway? Because his dad (who he murdered) made a deal with LF (who has shown up with an army uninvited) to an extremely sketchy alliance, the bedrock of which was Sansa (who Ramsay has lost)? I'm not buying that one either. 

 

i was referring to Roose chastising Ramsey for flaying Lord Cerwyn is season 5 and telling him hell be put down like a mad dog if he acts like one this season.  They pretend to act like Ramsey's psychotic nature will lead to his downfall, but my guess is it will solely be littefingers triumphant ride 

[Ruhail]

36 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I think it is about Cogman's explanation why there was no peach scene with Renly and Stannis : there were no peach in Belfast that month or something like that 

Hahaha get out no store in Belfast had a peach? xD sure Cogman 

34 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

some more info here: it got it's own page

 

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Renly's_peach

Thanks for that but i was asking about the behind the scenes reason of why there wasnt a peach in the Bitterbridge Parley

[Le Cygne]

4 hours ago, Karmarni said:

All the Starks 'side journeys' have been wasted in one way or another on the show. Arya goes to Braavos and she learns to get hit by a stick, do some parkour and outmaneuver in the dark, killing the Waif. What new was learned? Being blind and parkour. No character development, she's still Arya Stark and she still has vengeance on her mind. Waste.

Sansa goes to the Vale, whips up a feather dress, tells LF she knows what he wants and then proceeds to leave the Vale with him and pursue Jeyne Poole and Stannis' storyline. No character development, she was Alayne for a second, but that only served for her to rescue LF. What new was learned? Stay away from Ramsay Bolton. Waste.

Bran skips a season and then proceeds down vision lane. He's a bystander in the past, looking around and sometimes breaking through, only to lose Hodor in the process. No character development, no curiosity or growth concerning his skills. What new was learned? He's a cinemascope viewer. I guess that's only a partial waste, since we get to see what he sees. But as for Bran and his character? What's new? Nothing.

Jon was resurrected and short of a few moments with Tormund and Edd, he's gotten over it just fine. What new was learned? Could he have possibly learned he's a warg? Hell no. Starks are boring. Waste.

Bran is a cinemascope viewer!   That's perfect.

Maybe a good sign... https://twitter.com/SophieT/status/739912498229444611

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Don't be a book badass...you'll die on the show! 

[Ser Quork]

8 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Since we have a battle episode coming up, I thought I'd recap the battle episodes of previous seasons. I will get around to complaining about season 6, have no fear.

S1: No battle. The whispering wood and the battle of the red fork were both cut for cost reasons. Nonetheless, the politics and characters creating the context of the battle were very strong. And of course, S1 is the best season of the show; it is possible to make great GOT episodes without a huge fight being shown on screen.

S2: Blackwater. No snark or sarcasm - genuinely one of the best episodes of television ever made. But a huge part of this is the fact that it adapts the book and the characters within the battle so well. Davos' caution. Stannis' determination. Sansa's goodness and kindness under pressure. Cersei's alcholism and generally nastiness and cruelty. The pain of the Hound. The weary and blase attitude of Bronn. The bravery and pathos of Tyrion. Pod's unwavering loyalty.

It's an impressive collision of characters and conflicting loyalties all directed by the excellent Neil Marshal doing his best with a limited budget. The battle is at night for cost reasons and there is only one wildfyre ship, but these changes are perfectly acceptable and even help set the mood. A great episode which elevated an otherwise choppy season which had, until ep 9, struggled with adapting some of the material. (Tyrion being another highlight).

S3: The Red Wedding. The big shock of the series and, in retrospect, it's creative downfall, the Red wedding was certainly effective and we had been given plenty of primers to understand what was happening, who was involved and most importantly, why this shit was going down. With one exception. None of my show only friends were interested in the quibble I had about Talisa's presence, but for me it tarnished the entire episode, and for a very specific reason.

It was more obvious to book readers, but Talisa being at the Red wedding was devised entirely so that the audience could be shocked and repulsed at the sight of a pregnant woman being repeatedly stabbed in the stomach. Not only was that violence more stomach churning than a lot of what we'd seen before, but it also ran counter to the logic of the plot. The wedding was happening because Robb was trying (and tragically failing) to make amends with Walder Frey for marrying Talisa. Bringing Talisa to the wedding is sheer idiocy of the highest order. Walder points it out (with his repugnant "tits and a tight fit remark") that he is still being insulted even as he is asked for forgiveness. The show didn't have an answer to it and that really ruffled my feathers. I've watched my fair share of horror, slasher and exploitation films when I was younger, so I know when a plot or a character is being twisted for the sake or shock and gore and I'm inured to it... but not when this was absent from the show it's adapting. It was a bitter taste after a third season I'd enjoyed more than two. They intentionally went further than GRRM did and they were rewarded for it; in retrospect this set a precedent which has crippled the show now, without stopping it's popularity.

S4: Watchers on the wall. This one fell completely flat. The biggest episode so far in terms of budget and with Neil Marshal back for another battle, the setup was meandering all season. We understood what was happening and who was involved, but it had all taken far too long and felt stretched. There weren't enough characters we cared about in the North and certainly none we felt were in any real danger. I liked Alliser Thorne showing suprising steel when he needed to and Ygritte's death was well handled, but ultimately there wasn't enough investment in the characters. Green and Pyp's death was well done, but we'd spent no more than a few minutes with them across the entire series, so that was a bust as well. At the time I considered it an admirable failure, and in retrospect was the last bit of fun the show ever gave me, since my relationship with GOT season 4 was otherwise one long rough patch and episode 10 was the proverbial divorce papers being served. 

S5: Hardhome. A well executed action scene which perked up an abominable shitfest of a season. Hardhome's greatest strength was it's simplicity; a terrifying battle royale against a zombie horde, transcending the usual politics which effected the other three battle scenes (and which Blackwater got best by far).

However, I was surprised by just how popular the ep was - in scope and scale it was an achievement, I am forced to admit, but the stakes still weren't very high. No character not introduced in this episode died (except Rattle shirt and he definitely doesn't count)  and we only get a general sense that the Night's King raising the dead is bad - we don't actually know by what factor he has increased his forces because we don't know how many zombies he had before. We also don't give a shit about a mass of faceless wildling and care even less about the village of Hardhome. What politics that were included in the episode were ridiculous ("Jon Snow didn't need to come" - Tormund pointing out the pointlessness of it all) and in later episodes the battle had no effect on any particular plot. Jon didn't use it to justify his wildling policy and the mutineers certainly didn't let it change their minds about killing Jon. Hardhome made a big splash and sunk without trace, which wasn't true of any of the previous battles. Nonetheless, it made a refreshing change from either nothing happening in season 5 (making up about 70% of the season) or some things happening so stupid I got a hernia from watching. (You might guess the Dornish plot or Cersei's train ride to idiot town, but it was Sansa in winterfell that really got me). 

So - season 6 and the battle of the bastards. What can we expect, judging from the last five seasons? Season 1s budget problems are long gone, but so is season 2s adherence to the source material and political nous. Also, the lesson learned during the Red wedding (GOTs popularity is predicated entirely upon doing whatever appals it's audience the most) have been taken to heart so tightly by the showrunners it could probably do keyhole surgery on them. 

We are also in the odd position of being roughly sure of what's going to happen. The show is already in danger of repeating itself from season 5 (small army marching from the wall in poor conditions against a superior opponent) so it would be a storytelling culdesac to let Ramsay win again, and there's nothing left for Jon, Sansa and Davos to do if that happens. Stark victory is a lock but only with LF's help. The details are hazy, but the general result can be predicted with ease. 

However, the politics of this battle are so lazy, so stupid, so utterly without thought, it's almost not worth critiquing them. You'll notice I said "almost".

To sum up; no side is acting rationally. Starting with the Stark team, the wildlings are marching to their deaths without a plan to counter Ramsay's superior numbers. Jon is marching because of some predetermined time limit he has not shared with his men, Sansa, or us. Sansa is marching because her character failed to act with political foresight when presented with an army for free and has now got that army on side when it is almost too late and will have a hefty price to pay later. Great job Sansa - she continues to be incompetent in a season where the show is straining desperately to prove that raping her was the right storytelling call.

But these problems pale in comparison to the Bolton team, because I have no idea why a "Bolton team" even exists. With neither the support of the crown nor a Stark bride, Ramsay has no legal claim to the North or lordship of winterfell. He has no allies after killing Walda. He shouldn't have the support of Bolton men, because who would follow the man who murdered your leige lord and his son? Why exactly does ANYONE listen when he gives the order to march? Lord Karstark is so devoted to avenging his father's death and destroying the starks he will sign on with a psychotic murderer so that he can kill the half brother of the dead guy responsible and ensure that Ramsay gets his bride back so that the next ruler of the North... will be half Stark. This seems counterproductive if Stark hate is your only character trait. 

Jon Umber is a dumbass. There's no point going into any more detail at this point.

 

So there you have it - without actually seeing it we can tell what will happen, that the politics will be idiotic, the characters inconsistent and the action broad and impressive thanks to a huge budget. Since this season was a snooze fest like the last, (and immediately following an episode even hardcore fans were underwhelmed by) it will also be incredibly well received, praised as pioneering television and ensure that GOT is lavished with awards later in the year, so buckle up and prepare for that.

When all this happens, just remember one thing; back in 2011, the show adapted Martin's novel faithfully and the results made for intelligent and intriguing television (with the occasional "play with her pussy" on hand to ruin things). Let's ignore what GOT's become and raise a glass to better times.

Thanks for this.  Really well put together.

[TepidHands]

There's been a lot of talk about Emmys and GoT's success therein. Well back in the olden days (2011), Game of Thrones won a Peabody Award. Now, the Emmys may be a popularity contest, but the Peabodys are not. It's a juried competition. The awards were founded by the National Association of Broadcasters in 1940 as the "Pulitzer Prize for radio," and have expanded to include television, cable, and recently, blogs. This is what the Peabody committee said of GoT in May 2011 (based on the premiere season):

Quote

George R.R. Martin‘s A Song of Ice and Fire is the kind of book series that begs for cinematic rendering. It‘s a sprawling fantasy epic where dozens of characters exist as small pieces of an incredibly elaborate puzzle. The television adaptation, Game of Thrones, maintains the power and wonder of the original work, in many ways transcending it, with the help of stellar turns from Sean Bean, Peter Dinklage, Lena Headey and others as major players within the seven kingdoms of Westeros. Each setting within Westeros—the capital city of King‘s Landing, the castle of Winterfell, led by Bean‘s ever-honorable Ned Stark, and especially The Wall, the boundary between civility and a mysterious wilderness—is impeccably constructed, creating the perfect landscape to explore the series - themes of power, lineage, nobility, and nature (human and otherwise). Game of Thrones goes far beyond typical fantasy fare, provoking questions about the essence of both power and powerlessness, the drive to rule, and the very act of ruling. And in Westeros, more often than not, politicking is conducted by swordpoint. The series is equally concerned with those moments when all control is lost, using a series of supernatural phenomena, and the threat of a coming Winter which could last for years, to further illustrate that power is never absolute. Game of Thrones receives a Peabody Award for interrogating the very notion of authority within the context of a fun and thematically rich adventure.

I felt the same way after S1. But in addition to the high-mindedness that this award praises, the show was actually FUN TO WATCH. The adaptation was pretty faithful. The characters acted in ways that made sense. The production values were top-notch. Truly, the only thing I hated about S1 were the ridiculous hairstyles. 

Now, can you imagine anyone with good sense saying that the current season "maintains the power and wonder of the original work"? Or that it's exploring "themes of power, lineage, nobility, and nature (human and otherwise)"?

So much of the criticism of GRRM's last two books have to do with their structure, not their content. Ah, the showfans say. The "original work" of the last two books was crap! They go on about Penny (certainly she's a device to force Tyrion to confront his physical appearance and limits, but also she's also drawn as a very young innocent who'd lost her brother,  protector, and only friend). They snark about Brienne wandering around the Riverlands, ignoring the fact that she's our eyes on the common folk, or Sansa in the Vale, wiping the nose of a bratty epileptic kid.  Dorne went nowhere. (F)Aegon was a dumb distraction. The Iron Islands stuff is filler. The story needs more Tyrion! More Dany! More Jon! 

Oh, how the fanboys love to hate on "where whores go" and  "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know." I actually liked those thoughts looping through Tyrion's and Jaime's heads. Humans being what they are, hearing something traumatic can create negative feedback loops that echo in the brain for some time. If you hear, "you're old and ugly, and no one is ever going to want you" once, believe me, you'll hear it for YEARS, an echo bouncing off the walls of your head and your heart. 

Really, the only question the show at this point raises is "WHY?" 

[The Prince of Porne]

So are we supposed to see Manderly next episode? They've name-dropped House Manderly several times, and I thought I'd read some references to some version of Wyman appearing at some point.

The fat man and his scenes are some of my absolute faves from ADWD, and it's one of those things where if they weren't going to do it at the right time, and do it right, they shouldn't even bother. If he does show up, I'm afraid that since he supports the Starks he will naturally be some kind of weakling and/or bad comic relief idiot, and get brutally killed by Ramsey as a reward.

Or maybe the Manderlys will just end up being fierce Bolton supporters, like the Umbers and Glovers apparently are. Why the hell not at this point, right?

[LazyBazooka]

12 minutes ago, The Prince of Porne said:

So are we supposed to see Manderly next episode? They've name-dropped House Manderly several times, and I thought I'd read some references to some version of Wyman appearing at some point.

The fat man and his scenes are some of my absolute faves from ADWD, and it's one of those things where if they weren't going to do it at the right time, and do it right, they shouldn't even bother. If he does show up, I'm afraid that since he supports the Starks he will naturally be some kind of weakling and/or bad comic relief idiot, and get brutally killed by Ramsey as a reward.

Or maybe the Manderlys will just end up being fierce Bolton supporters, like the Umbers and Glovers apparently are. Why the hell not at this point, right?

Apparently a fat Northern lord (supposed to be Wyman) shows up after the battle to kiss Jon's ass and tries to kneel when proclaiming him King in the North, but can't because he's fat.

[Liver and Onions]

1 minute ago, LazyBazooka said:

Apparently a fat Northern lord (supposed to be Wyman) shows up after the battle to kiss Jon's ass and tries to kneel when proclaiming him King in the North, but can't because he's fat.

What?

Oh, for crying out loud...  Quality storytelling here, people! 

[The Prince of Porne]

4 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

Apparently a fat Northern lord (supposed to be Wyman) shows up after the battle to kiss Jon's ass and tries to kneel when proclaiming him King in the North, but can't because he's fat.

Lolwut? Seriously? No way that would ever.... no, wait, that sounds exactly like D&D. I expect a fart joke or three as well.

[Liver and Onions]

18 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

There's been a lot of talk about Emmys and GoT's success therein. Well back in the olden days (2011), Game of Thrones won a Peabody Award. Now, the Emmys may be a popularity contest, but the Peabodys are not. It's a juried competition. The awards were founded by the National Association of Broadcasters in 1940 as the "Pulitzer Prize for radio," and have expanded to include television, cable, and recently, blogs. This is what the Peabody committee said of GoT in May 2011 (based on the premiere season):

I felt the same way after S1. But in addition to the high-mindedness that this award praises, the show was actually FUN TO WATCH. The adaptation was pretty faithful. The characters acted in ways that made sense. The production values were top-notch. Truly, the only thing I hated about S1 were the ridiculous hairstyles. 

Now, can you imagine anyone with good sense saying that the current season "maintains the power and wonder of the original work"? Or that it's exploring "themes of power, lineage, nobility, and nature (human and otherwise)"?

So much of the criticism of GRRM's last two books have to do with their structure, not their content. Ah, the showfans say. The "original work" of the last two books was crap! They go on about Penny (certainly she's a device to force Tyrion to confront his physical appearance and limits, but also she's also drawn as a very young innocent who'd lost her brother,  protector, and only friend). They snark about Brienne wandering around the Riverlands, ignoring the fact that she's our eyes on the common folk, or Sansa in the Vale, wiping the nose of a bratty epileptic kid.  Dorne went nowhere. (F)Aegon was a dumb distraction. The Iron Islands stuff is filler. The story needs more Tyrion! More Dany! More Jon! 

Oh, how the fanboys love to hate on "where whores go" and  "Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know." I actually liked those thoughts looping through Tyrion's and Jaime's heads. Humans being what they are, hearing something traumatic can create negative feedback loops that echo in the brain for some time. If you hear, "you're old and ugly, and no one is ever going to want you" once, believe me, you'll hear it for YEARS, an echo bouncing off the walls of your head and your heart. 

Really, the only question the show at this point raises is "WHY?" 

Wow, that's a lovely write-up from the Peabody award. I like how it brings up the fantasy conventions of the book/show without degrading them. 

I admit I'm not one of those just reading for the endgame. I like the main characters, but I'm interested in everything GRRM sees fit to put on page. It's there for a reason. Even poor Penny has a story to tell. 

And I agree on the looping thoughts. Jon has them, too. "And who is your mother, he will not even say her name..." or something to that effect. Heck, no one even said that to him (that we know of), and it's always playing in the back of his mind. Confession: The biggest reason I want R+L=J to be true isn't so Jon gets to be King, but that he gets to know the truth of his birth and how much his parents and uncle really loved him. 

[Ser Quork]

22 minutes ago, LazyBazooka said:

Apparently a fat Northern lord (supposed to be Wyman) shows up after the battle to kiss Jon's ass and tries to kneel when proclaiming him King in the North, but can't because he's fat.

Gah!  I hope not.    But it's D&D, so ...

[TepidHands]

27 minutes ago, Liver and Onions said:

Confession: The biggest reason I want R+L=J to be true isn't so Jon gets to be King, but that he gets to know the truth of his birth and how much his parents and uncle really loved him. 

Oh, me, too. And how much they all sacrificed to keep him safe.  Rhaegar and Lyanna, their lives, and Ned, his honor.

Quote

.Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her? 

 

[Cas Stark]

LMAO.

So, the show can squeeze in a fat joke, and some fart or cock jokes as well w/Manderly.

Why oh why oh why I wonder would the Northern lords who the last episodes told the Starks to fuck off, saw the Starks rush into battle in a suicide mission, change their minds because they got their asses saved by an army from the Vale, that nobody knew was coming?

It's laughably bad.  And stupid.  And senseless.

I guess the North just always goes with the winner is the moral of GOT, no matter whether they're the family that ruled justly for thousands of years or a mad dog who feeds his relatives to the actual dogs. 

[The Knight in Motley]

So who wants to put money on this 'fat lord' wearing a fisherman's cap in the show?

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

So who wants to put money on this 'fat lord' wearing a fisherman's cap in the show?

 

Hahahhahaaassa 

There goes coffee! 

[The Fattest Leech]

4 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

So who wants to put money on this 'fat lord' wearing a fisherman's cap in the show?

 

A fat lord with a turtle sigil and his pants split as he farts when he attempts to kneel to Jon. 

[The Wull]

2 hours ago, The Prince of Porne said:

So are we supposed to see Manderly next episode? They've name-dropped House Manderly several times, and I thought I'd read some references to some version of Wyman appearing at some point.

The fat man and his scenes are some of my absolute faves from ADWD, and it's one of those things where if they weren't going to do it at the right time, and do it right, they shouldn't even bother. If he does show up, I'm afraid that since he supports the Starks he will naturally be some kind of weakling and/or bad comic relief idiot, and get brutally killed by Ramsey as a reward.

Or maybe the Manderlys will just end up being fierce Bolton supporters, like the Umbers and Glovers apparently are. Why the hell not at this point, right?

You know what, if Lord Manderly's only appearance is to say his "...had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey" line, I admit I'll probably squeal like a little girl and consider it the best episode of the season.  I love Lord Too-Fat.

Also, where is Big Bucket?  So dreamy 

[Tijgy]

5 minutes ago, The Wull said:

You know what, if Lord Manderly's only appearance is to say his "...had he lived he would have grown up to be a Frey" line, I admit I'll probably squeal like a little girl and consider it the best episode of the season.  I love Lord Too-Fat.

Also, where is Big Bucket?  So dreamy 

While I completely adore Big Bucket  ...

I hope he stays away. He would probably be ruined just like Robett Glover (who is my favorite Northern Lord). I was really pissed when I saw what they did to him. O, Wamsay!!! gave us castle back. Let follow him vs. Yes, Stannis!!! gave our castle back. Stannis is still your king NOT OUR OWN. 

Sigh

[The Wull]

Quote

Hugo: I want to live forever in a land where summer lasts a thousand years. I want a castle in the clouds where I can look down over the world. I want to be six-and-twenty again. When I was six-and-twenty I could fight all day and fuck all night. What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

 

Would this not be perfect for an adaptation of of ASOIAF to throw in there?  People would eat this up. Obviously not GoT, the fan-fic.