How would you rate the Stark family in order of intelligence?

[Ice Turtle]

On 25. 6. 2016 at 3:43 PM, Tijgy said:

Even then she was able to trick Tyrion into believing she was just praying into the woods so she was able to escape. 

 

7 minutes ago, YorEmixam said:

Best liar, most intelligent, IGN 10/10...

 

Tyrion is a very intelligent character but in a way he is also emotionally crippled and sometimes simply delusional, he paid both Shae and Bronn and still seemed surprised in the end when they turned out to be a whore and a sellsword. I would not give much credit to Sansa when it comes to Tyrion, no matter what she does it's more about Tyrion lying to himself that Sansa being super convincing.

[YorEmixam]

1 minute ago, Ice Turtle said:

 

 

Tyrion is a very intelligent character but in a way he is also emotionally crippled and sometimes simply delusional, he paid both Shae and Bronn and still seemed surprised in the end when they turned out to be a whore and a sellsword. I would not give much credit to Sansa when it comes to Tyrion, no matter what she does it's more about Tyrion lying to himself that Sansa being super convincing.

I think you know but just to be sure, I was 200% sarcastic.

[Ice Turtle]

2 minutes ago, YorEmixam said:

I think you know but just to be sure, I was 200% sarcastic.

No, humbly acknowledging that I was only guessing that there was a 30% chance of that, I miss our old sarcasm font

[Patrek_Mallister]

I agree with Sansa being at the bottom, her POV is deliberately written with a thick cloud around it. The other children have childish viewpoints that are supposed to make for dramatic irony on the part of the adult reader, but Sansa gets it especially badly. I don't recall her ever really doing anything or figuring anything out of her own volition, but it's been a while since I've read. In any case there's a 'stark' contrast between her situation and Bran's/Arya's, who are forced to be consistently contemplative and resourceful, respectively, far beyond what their years should probably allow. That's just not there with Sansa.

 

I'd say Arya is the smartest, though a Robb POV would have been interesting. I'd also say that Arya, compared with Sansa, shows extrardinary emotional intelligence, both in reading people (which Sansa is hopeless at, to the point of comedy in the early stories), and in being able to empathize with them (Sansa is outright sociopathic at times near the story's beginning – she is literally unable to understand why anyone would be sad about Micah dying). Those two really are the biggest contrast, and Arya seems to be dimly aware of this even as a child: she remarks that she hopes Joffrey has a good steward, because Sansa is not going to be able to effectively manage a household. As for the comments that Sansa is turning into a 'player,' I just don't see it. Maybe she will, but this far she just hasn't done anything. She's not 'hiding her identity' – Littlefinger is. She never does anything.

[Ser Ronan Storm]

On a scale from "Stupid" to "Hopeful", I would put the surviving Starks on Hopeful, Ned and Catelyn at Stupid, and Robb somewhere in the middle.

[King17]

Didn't bran come up with the plan to hide in the crypts and use the direwolves to create a false trail for theon? If you ask me that is pretty smart

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

Arya, Jon, Bran, Rickon, Robb, Ned, Cat, Sansa, in that order, smartest to dumbest.

[rotting sea cow]

The Starks are not the brightest of the lot. I blame mostly Ned for inculcating straightforward thinking to their male kids and Cat for pressing traditional education on the female ones.

- Ned, Robb & Jon are near the bottom in the ranking. Sure, they are capable military commanders but politically they are terrible. Just read Ned in AGOT or Jon in ADWD to see this. It's like they think formal authority is enough.

- Arya and Bran are certainly the quickest. They are still kids and are able to grasp many things, despite the drawbacks of their education.

- Sansa deserves some serious slapping, especially at the beginning. After much suffering she seems to become much more aware of their surroundings. There are some posts circulating titled "Sansa smart" which makes some good points. Anyway, for me Sansa as PoV is insufferable.

- Cat showed serious reasoning capabilities, unfortunately emotions and very bad luck made their way in between.

- I won't rate Rickon. He is a small kid although he seems to be quite advanced for his age.

Saying this. Intelligence is overrated nowadays. There is also a very narrow definition of intelligence in this world.  Littlefinger is probably one of the smartest characters in the series and still and asshole. I'll have Hodor any day as friend or colleague over him. Or I'll have Lollys over Cersei as partner. Persons of good feelings are more valuable than intelligent ones.

[Philokles]

It seems unfair to blame Arya for not grasping the bigger picture. The reader always has significantly more context than she does as a younger daughter, then refugee, then junior acolyte. She is one of the characters with the most diverse intelligence in the series. Oberyn is the only person I can think of who is more of a polymath.

 

Bran -> Arya -> Jon -> Ned -> Robb -> Cat -> Sansa

[Praetor Xyn]

Arya > Sansa > Jon > Robb > Bran > Ned

[Anck Su Namun]

The Starks are generally slow but we can still rank them in order.

1. Catelyn
2. Old Nan (if you include servants as part of the household)
3. Eddard
4. Bran
5. Robb
6. Arya
7. Sansa
8. Jon

[The Hammer of Justice]

.

[Luddagain]

Goodness

 

In terms of the boys GRRM pretty much set the scene for intellect/wisdom in Chapter 1.

Bran was only 7 but demonstrated understanding and capacity to form judgements, weighing up the comments of Jon and Robb.  His wisdom is demonstrated by his time as ruler and by comments from Maester Luwin.  He gets the prize as wisest

Jon also showed better understanding of Gerard and his fear. he showed tact and diplomacy re the pups and also in coaching Bran. we learn somewhere he was better at maths than Robb

Robb was shown clearly as having fairly shallow, boyish views ie the man died bravely st, and showed too much trust in Theon

Rickon was shown as a wild child.

So the order for the boys is Bran/Jon/ Robb/ Rickon

In terms of the girls, we are told that Arya is the best at maths and housekeeping etc. She is clearly a very quick learner. Sansa has been raised to be a "lady."   She may well turn out to  have some brains. probably more tha robb anyway.

My order

Bran/Arya/Jon/Sansa/Robb/Rickon

 

[Bea Noleto]

That is very hard to answer.  They have different ages, had different experiences and went through different challenges. Robb seemed to be a brilliant military commander, and botched the political side, but he was also ignorant of many things by no fault of his and he was given a very heavy burden for anyone, and he was 15 years old.  And we don't have his POV.

Jon was very creative and resourceful, and I got the feeling that in many aspects he was more successful than Robb, but he was also given more time and oportunities to learn and prepare. 

Arya is very intelligent, but her intelligence and  skill are often overated in this forum (usually claiming she is not 'realistic'). She didn't survive all on her own, she had a lot of help, even if most of the people who were 'helping' her did it for their own benefit. We can't be sure if she survived so well despite being so young and fragile or because of it.  Her own physique made her easier to blend in and go unnoticed than Sansa or Robb or Jon, not just her personality.

Bran and Rickon are really too young to make a judgment.

Ned, Cat and Sansa are, in my opinion the less intelligent of the family. Of this three, Ned is the most stupid. He does have a certain wisdom, with all the 'pass the sentence, listen the last words, swing the sword' and 'know the men that might die for you' etc. but those seemed to be the lessons that someone passed to him in a very traditional way, not as something that he elaborates as his own.  He just repeats.

When he thinks for himself is painful. Not only he made the same kind of mistakes that his wife and daughter did, but his mistakes enabled their mistakes to happen/ have consequences.  I think he failed his family in many crucial ways.

So, Ned first. He let Robb in the dark many important matters of the world. Ned expected to have a war because of the conflict with the Lannisters, and he told him nothing about what was happening, nor given any instructions to his son and heir who was almost a man grown, of an age that many fight wars.

He gave his wife the knowlegde and actual position of second in comand while he was alive, even if after his death his son would be the one to rule, and make decisions and prove himself to the northerners.  At that point, it was Cat who decided what Robb was allowed to know about the conflict, it was Cat who knew the very basics of the politics, and was the one who had to teach him.  

By doing that, he undermined his son's autonomy as heir and his power as Lord and King after.  Robb struggled with the fact that his mother was always around, he depended on her for knowledge and council, but had all the responsabilities for his mistakes and hers for himself, because he had to be superior to her. Not a mommy's boy. It is not me being sexist, it is that society. 

(Not to mention that Cat is hardly the political genius that some people think she is. She is just smarter than Ned and Robb. Isn't there anyone in the North who is a good, trustworthy and able-to-ride-a-horse political adviser?)

 Also, his heir's best friend was the hostage of the family. 

With LF: Cat suspected Littlefinger at first but 'trusted' him after, because she had no choice, she was in his hands. Futhermore, there was the 'love' that he had for her, the memories... Ned was the brother of the man who humiliated him and almost killed him. He married the woman he And LF told him not to trust him, to his face!

With Robert and Jon Arryn: The Targaryen babies were only murdered because the King wanted to. He 'pardoned' Tywin (and Jamie) and married Cersei!  With the support and advice of Jon Arryn. Ned blames it all on the Lannisters, wants nothing to do with them, the IT, and the power that comes with it. But he is still loyal, emotionally loyal to Bob and Jon, not as a political decision.

He gives his House's resources and unwavering support to people who are just as bad as the people he despises, only more hypocritical and gets nothing in return. That's stupid and it is a stupidity that comes with the vanity of thinking of himself as really honorable, different from the people he consorts with for pratical reasons. It is a middle ground that does not make him truly honorable, because he does not fight the injustice and does not make him a competent ruler, that advances his House's position.

What's worse is that when he believes Jon had been murdered by the Lannisters he puts himself and his family in a dangerous situation, without the thought of the benefit for them. If Jon Arryn had been poisoned by Cersei, it would be like to die from a bite of a snake you brought home yourself. Same for Robert. He owed them nothing, but was willing to risk his neck, and his family's members and his people for the sake of those shitbags. 

With his daughters: After what happened in the Trident it was clear that the Lannisters were after Stark blood and had the king in their pockets. He was afraid for Arya's life even before they reached KL. He should have returned to Winterfell imediately.  And he had several other warnings.  How stupid can a 35 old man who is a ruler and war veteran be not to realize the danger of this situation? To drag his daughters into a political battlefield in the territory of the enemy? To trust the obedience and judgment of his daughter who is in love with the guy who tried to murder her sister? Really?

I am sick of talking of Sansa, the same things over and over with the same responses. 

It is pretty much the same with Cat, but I have one thing to add. One mistake that I never seen anyone mention it is the fact that Jon was basically kicked out of Winterfell because of her. And I don't mean that it bad, because it is imoral all the "she is not his mother! he is not her responsability!" etc. I mean it hurt her family. If Jon was in Winterfell by Robb's side when bad news came from KL, her son wouldn't rely so much on Theon, who was the only friend he had left. Jon was also suspicious of Theon, and would support her advice of not letting him go. Her position would be more likely to be seen as not (just) stemed from prejudice. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Arya is the smartest . She has a goal and she is doing what is necessary to achieve it and unlike Jon ,Bran and Sansa her head is not full of songs .

Jon next . He seem to be the most adaptable.

Robb good battle commander .

Bran , Rickon still unknown .

Sansa even though see no longer sees life as beautiful songs , she has yet made moves to improve herself or situation .

Catelyn - She allows her personal feelings to override her judgement .

Eddard - his honorable intentions clashes with real world practicalities . His refusal to use Loras to hunt down the Mountain , his refusal to heed either Cercei ,Baelish or Renly's advice .His actions led to the war of the five kings .

 

[Bea Noleto]

20 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Arya . She has a goal and she is doing what is necessary to achieve it and unlike Jon ,Bran and Sansa her head is not full of songs .

There are not many songs for her taste, but she takes what she gets. Her direwolf is called Nymeria. 

[Tianzi]

I think that the only ones which haven't displayed mind-boggling dumbness (at least for their respective ages) so far are Bran and Arya, so I'd put them on the top. Jon is cunning, capable, has his failings, but presents a stable, high level. Robb was an outstanding battle commander, but... yeah. Catelyn was perceptive regarding some things and outwitted Tyrion once, but lacked contact with reality sometimes. Ned lacked contact with reality big time. Sansa... yeah. Rickon is unmeasureable.

That said, I would not necessarily equate it with intelligence per se. And I think it's not a coincidence that it's the older characters who tend to do dumb things based on their values' conflicts. Plus, I'm not sure if I'd give so much flak Sansa compared to Arya. True, she doesn't have any accomplishments besides surviving, but I'd say that like Sansa definitely wouldn't survive if she was on Arya's place, I don't think Arya would survive if put in Sansa's place.

[teej6]

7 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

I think that the only ones which haven't displayed mind-boggling dumbness (at least for their respective ages) so far are Bran and Arya, so I'd put them on the top. Jon is cunning, capable, has his failings, but presents a stable, high level. Robb was an outstanding battle commander, but... yeah. Catelyn was perceptive regarding some things and outwitted Tyrion once, but lacked contact with reality sometimes. Ned lacked contact with reality big time. Sansa... yeah. Rickon is unmeasureable.

That said, I would not necessarily equate it with intelligence per se. And I think it's not a coincidence that it's the older characters who tend to do dumb things based on their values' conflicts. Plus, I'm not sure if I'd give so much flak Sansa compared to Arya. True, she doesn't have any accomplishments besides surviving, but I'd say that like Sansa definitely wouldn't survive if she was on Arya's place, I don't think Arya would survive if put in Sansa's place.

Sansa survived in KL while Rob and Cat were alive because she was a valuable hostage for the Lannisters.  Even crazy Cersei could recognize that. After Robb's death, Sansa became a great political tool for Tywin because of her claim to Winterfell, and neither Cersei nor Joffrey could kill Sansa. Then, of course there was LF lurking in the back making sure his prized posession stays alive. True, had Arya been in Sansa's place in KL she may have provoked someone or something and may have ended up dead but even so her death would have been costly to the Lannisters and Tywin would have done his best not to let it happen.

[Tianzi]

6 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Sansa survived in KL while Rob and Cat were alive because she was a valuable hostage for the Lannisters.  Even crazy Cersei could recognize that. After Robb's death, Sansa became a great political tool for Tywin because of her claim to Winterfell, and neither Cersei nor Joffrey could kill Sansa. Then, of course there was LF lurking in the back making sure his prized posession stays alive. True, had Arya been in Sansa's place in KL she may have provoked someone or something and may have ended up dead but even so her death would have been costly to the Lannisters and Tywin would have done his best not to let it happen.

Cersei also recognized that it would be better not to kill Ned, and then Joffrey happened. Of course, Sansa's survival is greatly attributed to her position, but I can perfectly see Arya in the same position attacking Joffrey or something and getting herself killed, over which we would have debated "how COULD anybody be so stupid?". Unless she managed to kill Joffrey along, the it would be "worth it".

[Maxxine]

7 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Cersei also recognized that it would be better not to kill Ned, and then Joffrey happened. Of course, Sansa's survival is greatly attributed to her position, but I can perfectly see Arya in the same position attacking Joffrey or something and getting herself killed, over which we would have debated "how COULD anybody be so stupid?". Unless she managed to kill Joffrey along, the it would be "worth it".

I agree with this even though Arya is favorite character. I'm not convinced she could've kept her temper in check. Even though I think it more likely she would've died because she would've kept trying to escape. She never would have given up. Which is my biggest problem with Sansa is that she basically gave up.