(SPOILERS) Criticise Without Reprecussion

[Ash Enshugar]

The problem I guess is that you can't root for characters that are unlikeable and stupid. I can't really think of a single living character that doesn't meet those criteria. They've made Brienne into a emotionless T-1000, they've made Sansa into a vindictive girl who acts dumb and complains a lot. Jon is a sulking shell of a man who looks as if he's about to cry in every scene. Arya's arc is completely pointless, Daenerys is Genghis Khan with just about as much conscience, and Tyrion is a comic relief character.

Who exactly am I to root for in this story anymore?

[Elisabetta Duò]

19 hours ago, The Bear said:

Same with Dany. Painted as a girl power pro-feminist with agency but then checks with Tyrion. They're subverting their own message without realising it. 

I don't think that at all, being humble enough to look for advice from people who are objectively more experienced in politics than you is a sign of cleverness and balance (and I'm saying this as a fan who never really connected with Daenery's character, probably because she embodies the fantasy elements and I'm not a fantasy novels reader, just an historical novels and crime novels lover - beside the fact I don't like her 'violent', 'revolutionary' approach).

Both Yara and Daenerys rightly wanted to ask the opinion of their own advisers (they wouldn't have picked them as advisers if they didn't think they were more experienced than they are and they didn't value their opinion...).

It looked like 'a seal of approval' only because Tyrion and Theon, as advisers, agreed with them, but we don't know what Yara and Daenerys would have done if the advisers had not agreed with them. Maybe they would have decided for the allegiance in any case, discarding the advices, maybe not.

 

[massoir]

Ive been lurking in the shadows like batman (except without the physique or the money) for a while now, but this travesty has finally brpught me into the light.

 

apologies if i go over anything thats already been mentioned:

 

where did the wall of bodies come from (300 spartans anyone?)

 

what is with the bolton pike testudo that surrounded them, now im no julius caesar, but once they had surrounded jon and co why didnt they slaughter them, they only moved like 3 foot once they'd set up!

 

sans-ugh - im sure she didnt care about rickon, because if he lived she wouldnt be lady of winterfell...

 

ghost like the snow round winterfell has disappeared.

 

mereen - what was with the 8 sons of the harpy, who were they killing outside the gates, why were they even out there???

nice to see that the sails of the yunkai warship was more flame retardant than the hull.

 

thats me done for now, im dreading next week

[Nami]

You know what, why Lyanna Mormont offered only 62 men, knowing that if Jon lost the battle the Mormonts would then become traitors to the Boltons and Ramsay would destroy them?

She acted as if she had nothing to lose
it was just for the scene so she could look badass and show that Jon would end up with a small army after all?

[Ser Furious]

12 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Changes that would have made this episode better:

1. Instead of Arrows, Ramsey releases the hounds on Rickon, and Rickon is mauled to death.

2. Jon and Ghost don't save Rickon, but do get some action (particularly ghost) murdering Ramsey's dogs.

3. Jon + Davos+ Tormond at least pretend to not be among the worst commanders in history.

4. Anyone using a shield or armor.

5. Davos repositioning his archers to actually use them as archers vs Ramsey

6. Any kind of seige weapons on the Stark side... How exactly where they planning on breaching Winterfell with no seige weapons?

7. Jon's sword actually cutting a peasant steal sword in half.... Why is Brienne the only person who's Valaryian steel sword is given any credit?

8. Sansa keeping Ramsey alive.... and slowly torturing him, much as he did to Theon.... AND ENJOYING IT. (Hinting that Ramsey had in fact been soo evil, that he even somewhat corrupted her into at least partially becoming a monster herself... and maybe even Ramsey, while being tortured, enjoying that realization)

9 Melissandre either not being useless, or at least flashing her tits...

10. Jon taking at least one pity arrow out in field, or better yet Ramsey actually landing the arrow that killed Wun Wun on Jon (with Jon dodging it enough for it to not be fatal wound).... Felt too much like Jon was wearing plot armor the entire time.

All of this, especially the armor part (no Northerner apparently ever wears plate armor since even Ned didnt have it during the ToJ scene). Also want to add:

Wun Wun using that Giant's bow used during the attack at the wall. 

Wun Wun using any weapon at all during the battle.

Jon developing their battle plan around Wun Wun since he is freaking giant and a total game changer.

[A Dance with Davos]

I haven't read the whole topic, but... has anyone mentioned the absurdity of Sansa killing Ramsey?

I find it hard to believe that Jon didn't kill Ramsey, cause he wanted Sansa to have her revenge. To me it seemed like the reason to keep him alive is that he has worth. Less worth as a hostage, but to gain some information.

So either Jon a character who has experienced the horror of killing and even says he is fed up with it kept Ramsey alive so Sansa could finish him or Sansa just killed a prisoner of war...

[Tijgy]

2 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

Snipped for length

Thanks whose advice does Stannis has his Northern army (Mountain Clans )? Who told him directly attacking the dreadfort (IIRC) was a bad idea. 

I think it is indeed possible to say Jon might not be as talented tacticians like the Young Wolf (who at that moment was advised by the amazing Blackfish => LOOK HOW USEFUL YOU ARE BRYNDEN! You are more worthy than an army; his father's bannermen, ...) Ned was also good at it and did learn his sons about it.

Sigh. But then it is actually from pretty early they started to make Jon dumb 

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

hahaha i cant get over the Corpse Hill that came out of nowhere.

why did george allow this morons to adapt his books?

[LulaMae Barnes]

13 hours ago, rayarts said:

I really want to puke when I see how ppl glorify this episode/battle and hence the whole season on the internet right now, always jabbing at ppl like us, who dare to critisize. 

So it only needs some -any- sort of action, and that's enough be called a brilliant show. I guess, that's the level the show got to at this point. 

True that. All of it.

I am always wondering if there are ever ANY official reviews that dare to be critical and not just keep schmoozing D&D and their massive egos.

Because,you know, of all their EPICNESS and AWESOMENESS and crap...

Are all actual reviewers always loving this (by now almost completely) illogical & inconsequential mess and it is just us being overly nagging for no reason at all?!?

[TepidHands]

I'm glad for Yarasha and Theon that they parked in the economy lot and their boats escaped burning.

And Ramsay said he hadn't fed his hounds since Sansa left? What's he doing with Bony Myranda, aging her in a meat locker?

[Steelegrave]

17 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I don't think the show is pandering to feminists at all. The show is doing exactly what it always does. Messing things up.

They always get women wrong. They have no clue. They are offensive. Same as always. Nothing new here.

(And I wish they'd just kill Sandra off at this point, they just keep making it worse.)

Really?  Cause the show is turning into the Battle of 5 Queens.  There is an obvious agenda.  Mostly these morons are trying to make up for all the rapey vile sexist shit they thought was cool storytelling in the 1st 4 seasons, but there is an obvious agenda.  Asha/Yara is the biggest clue to that.

[watcher of the night]

18 hours ago, I am a Dragon said:

- More quick cut eyesore editing

- Everything is blue so people know it's the north

- Tormund is a complete idiot because it's supposed to be funny or something

- Ramsey was the only character that behaved rationally

- Tells us there's at least 8,000 men and only shows ~1,000

- All the bodies stacking up in a wall because plot

- Wun Wun didn't even have a weapon

- Magic lucky stupid Jon

- "Let's just stand here politely while they encircle us"

- Random burning flayed bodies because spooky

- Random burning flayed bodies just disappear

- Rhaegal and Viserion just happen to know when Dany is making her move

- Muh gurl power because we can't upset the feminists

- Dany wants to burn them all but no reaving for you, you cheeky Ironborn

- You just KNOW Dany is going to team up with the sneks now

- Wooden toy survives the pyre

- Awful CGI

- Dragons burn one ship and then the masters surrender

- SotH just randomly killing civvies in front of Mereen's main gate

- No snow

- No Ghost but I guess they need to save CGI money for Dragons and Emilia Clarke's tits

- Ramsey shoots the already dying Wun Wun instead of Jon or Tormund

- Surprise cavalry saves the day because D&D don't know how else to finish a battle

- Salsa is a hero because agenda

Even daytime soap operas show more respect for their audiences' intelligence than this. The only thing going for the show is that it has a big budget. It's still complete dirt. Dab & Dabid keep outdoing themselves. If I wasn't a masochist, I would have dropped this shite 2 seasons ago.

Very well said.

[LulaMae Barnes]

11 hours ago, TeethGrinder said:

They basically turned “The North Remembers” – Literally a tagline they’ve used over and over – Into a parody of itself. Even if we do see the Manderly’s in a Frey killing capacity it will be completely meaningless as the North has been retaken without them. There's so much more but it just gives me a headache and it says it all that I think this one of the better episodes. I can’t wait until the books purify this madness because my mind is flat out rejecting this shit. 

 

Since there are hardly any Northern Lords fighting with Jon , ehm, I mean for Sansa...it is more "The Wildlings must help us" than "The North Remembers" - because the North apparently forgot everything and doesn't care at all.

But why would they? Obviously there is NO WINTER COMING and since not all of them get the Westeros Daily Mail (which tells you all about things like Jon's much spoken of skills and stuff) they don't seem to know about the REAL DANGER lurking further north - so they don't care about the importance of Northern houses actually sticking together to fight all evil.....

[Nami]

2 hours ago, Xcorpyo001 said:

I’m starting to believe that most of the GoT reviewers I’m watching are being paid by HBO to say only positive things about the show. No one can be this blind.

Thing is: everyone loved it. I'm seeing everyone just praising this shit to the very heavens
I feel like there's something wrong with me

[Morgain]

I don't know if this is any comfort re Sansa but her current failings do fit her long term character. In S1 she betrayed Arya re an attack on Joffrey. (Possibly Sansa's loss of her direwolf then was a foreshadowing that she was not going to have the strength of the Starks, their honour code.) She then betrayed her father's plans to Cersei. Both her betrayals were for individual ambition, short term advantage to gain status, and acted against her kindred. Status was always what Sansa loved.

After that she merely did what she felt she had to in order to survive humiliation and abuse in a series of situations. She's now a female Theon, a broken woman, but she never amounted to much anyway. She did almost nothing to overcome her humiliation and abuse, except a timid plot with a weak fool in KL - compare Arya for major contrast. So it's fairly logical she failed to aid Jon by sharing info on LF's army. She has no sense of teamwork (kindred loyalty) she's maybe an autistic solitary ambition.

It's been suggested she didn't know for sure LF would come. But an army commander (Jon) should be given ALL info, in order to make their decisions. It's their job to make decisions, not their officers to hold back stuff to 'protect' them. Sansa is from a warrior house, military class nobles, so she would have learned that growing up. Her mentor was her mother, very much a warrior house female.

However I seriously doubt if D&D have anything like this degree of mature analysis. To them she is just an excuse to put in dollops of violence. That includes the violence against her (Joffrey, Ramsey), and her own violence now in having Ramsay torn apart by (illogically) his own dogs. New tag maybe, violence peg, for characters like Theon, Sansa, and yes, Ramsay.

A note on the nature of mediaeval battles. They mostly didn't win by strategy. The dominant issues were i) loyalty of lords and mercenaries; ii) total muddle once it started, and iii) dysentery.

Battles were drawn up and sat for days doing nothing while parleys dragged on. Leaders and armies didn't want to fight - it was a threat/ threat game and they hoped to win or negotiate as much as possible without the losses of fighting. Lords held back - famously Henry VII only won because the big northern family decided to make a move after ages, and chose Henry. Mercenaries and secondary lords regularly slipped away unless they felt they were on the big numbers, better ground side. Then once battle was joined mostly strategy went into a muddle of mud/ dust and very often sheer accidents decided who won, such as Richard III losing his horse. Then some here have mentioned Agincourt which is a famous example of winning via dysentery. The longbows were a factor, but by the time action started the French camp was so sick from sewage the numbers who could stand up were not enough.

On violence and power D&D seem not to know the difference. A powerful person/ leader, is impressive when they DON'T resort to violence. Weak or stupid people do that. A strong leader does make use of violence as a tool, but sparingly. William the Conqueror for example, massacred the people of (modern) Yorkshire - completely. Replaced them with his own. Atrocity. But a strategic lesson. The result was he had very little trouble from a cowed English population for the rest of his reign. Contrary to D&D's puny fantasies, the medieaeval world was not a chaos of violence.

D&D's women are pathetic, though Martin is not that great either. Mediaeval women were extremely powerful. they organised political marriage alliances, bred networks of influence through foster children, held territories as regents, and established trading enterprises and empires of religious foundations. Cersei had glimpses of it earlier on, and cat Stark was quite good, but precious few others. Again D&D define 'power' as 'violence' so they have no idea how to construct a strong, strategic, compassionate and aware woman. Goddess save us from their pathetic trash idea of lesbians but then their obsession with prostitution gives away what their idea of sex is.

 

Does anyone else think we need to appeal to Martin to make a very strong public statement that the future books are going to be VERY DIFFERENT to the show? I'm sure he signed a bond not to criticise the show, but if he said that it would pass the terms of contractual bond, and we;d know what he meant!

 

 

[Dolorous Gabe]

Even my dad, who is always delighted to switch his brain off and enjoy the ride, is complaining about Sansa not telling Jon about the support of the Vale forces.

Will Sansa turn villain?

[Ravness]

1 hour ago, A Dance with Davos said:

I haven't read the whole topic, but... has anyone mentioned the absurdity of Sansa killing Ramsey?

I find it hard to believe that Jon didn't kill Ramsey, cause he wanted Sansa to have her revenge.

I think it was mentioned that that was exactly the reason why Jon didn't kill Ramsay - he saw Sansa and realized that Ramsay wasn't his to kill.

[LulaMae Barnes]

11 hours ago, Larence Snow said:

So who was on these burning crosses? Random farmboys?

THAT I am still curious about!!! I feared it might be Rickon - or some of Jon's scouts or some Wildlings... anyone close to Jon.

I suppose it was just there to make a puzzling, teasing scene in this seasons trailer -  so everyone could start guessing whether it might be Stannis, Rickon, Tormund, Davos .....or anyone else that is important to the viewers.... because: HYPE!

[winteriscoming73]

No Ghost...what a waste of a perfectly good direwolf! Would have been cool to see him kicking ass on the battlefield. 

[LulaMae Barnes]

9 hours ago, Facebookless Man said:

Something seems to be missing from all the Sansa talk. Maybe I missed it.

... she enjoyed watching a man get eaten by dogs.

 

Yes,of course. And Daddy Ned, who was well known for being fair,loyal,just and noble (he even dealt justly with evildoers), would have been soooo proud of his little girl, right !?!!?