US Politics: Hindsight on 2020

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

Also, I can't help but notice that no one is denying that the Democrats stoke racial resentment among African-Americans and Hispanics.

[Lord Flashheart]

3 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Here are their 6 demands:

Basically all of those except the first are a demand for special rights and privileges.

Source?

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

2 minutes ago, Lord Flashheart said:

Source?

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-lives-matter-releases-policy-agenda-n620966

[OldGimletEye]

25 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Conservatives do take it seriously, it's BLM and the left that don't.  It sounds like they would rather have a thousand black men die at the hands of other black men then one black man die at the hands of a police officer, regardless of the circumstances of the shooting.  Rather than come together as a community and face the gang violence, they want to push police out of their neighborhoods.

If they truly believed Black Lives Matter, they would be opposing the crime and poverty epidemic that is killing far more black men, and not focusing on a small minority of deaths that just so happens to further their narrative of racial injustice, which of course is going to spur racial resentment as well.

This truly demonstrates what I'm talking about.

There is more too this than just crime in African American communities. There are issues of sentencing and incarceration disparities. I really never hear conservatives ever try to grapple with these issues.

As far as the economic issues, conservatives are more likely to believe that African Americans are less economically well off because they are "lazy" rather than attempting to grapple with the odious effects of historical discrimination.

All conservatives offer up is more criminal enforcement and more pull yourself up by the bootstraps ideology. And that's largely the reason why they dismiss all this and get defensive about it.

[butterbumps!]

4 minutes ago, Fez said:

At the same time though, I think I would want Ivanka and Kusnher being the ones giving advice to Trump; they're certainly better than some of the alternatives.

In what way?   I grant they aren't ideologues, but is there more?

[Lord Flashheart]

3 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-lives-matter-releases-policy-agenda-n620966

 

Quote

 

To achieve those demands the group offered a set of solutions that include the demilitarization of police and an end to systemic attacks on black youth, including black members of the LGBTQ community. They call for the passing of state and federal laws that acknowledge and address the impacts of slavery and the passage of H.R. 40 to form a commission to study reparations proposals. Another of the recommendations calls for the "retroactive decriminalization and immediate release of all people convicted of drug offenses, sex work-related offenses and youth offenses."

"We recognize that not all of our collective needs and visions can be translated into policy, but we understand that policy change is one of many tactics necessary to move us towards the world we envision, a world where freedom and justice is the reality," M. Adams, co-executive director of Freedom Inc., said.

 

From the same article you linked. Sometimes you have to shoot for the moon in order to land on equal ground.

 

[Fez]

5 minutes ago, butterbumps! said:

In what way?   I grant they aren't ideologues, but is there more?

They've both got more than a few liberal tendencies, and Kushner has all sorts of ties to Democratic donors (and has himself donated around $100,000 to Democrats over the years). Given Trump's habit of agreeing with whoever spoke to him last, I'd prefer that to be people with at least some liberal ideas; rather than pretty much any strand of Republicans. The story going around a few months ago was that Kushner was the one who got Trump to take the anti-entitlement cut stance he's had; so he's probably the main defense (along with hopefully a few Senate Republicans) left against cutting Medicare or Social Security.

And I really don't care about the nepotism stuff; Kennedy made his brother AG after all. The corruption potential is real bad, but I'll take corruption as the price to be paid for not going fully down the conservative policy rabbit hole.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

41 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Romney for Secretary of State is probably the sanest choice I can think of (compared to Petraus or Giuliani)

What's wrong with Petraeus as Secretary of State? He actually has foreign policy experience and as far as I know, hasn't gone off the deep end like Flynn. He's also not particularly hawkish or neocon afaik.

He'd did have some sexual improprieties, but compared to everyone else, including the president, those seem rather tame at this point.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

3 minutes ago, Fez said:

They've both got more than a few liberal tendencies, and Kushner has all sorts of ties to Democratic donors (and has himself donated around $100,000 to Democrats over the years). Given Trump's habit of agreeing with whoever spoke to him last, I'd prefer that to be people with at least some liberal ideas; rather than pretty much any strand of Republicans. The story going around a few months ago was that Kushner was the one who got Trump to take the anti-entitlement cut stance he's had; so he's probably the main defense (along with hopefully a few Senate Republicans) left against cutting Medicare or Social Security.

And I really don't care about the nepotism stuff; Kennedy made his brother AG after all. The corruption potential is real bad, but I'll take corruption as the price to be paid for not going fully down the conservative policy rabbit hole.

I'd take going down the convservative policy rabbit hole a little to avoid becoming a nepotistic kleptocracy.

[Fragile Bird]

Ok....so I just hear that the National Security Advisor position is not one that has to be confirmed. Flynn is in.

Flynn, by the way, has said that Islam is not a religion, but an ideology.

[Mexal]

15 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

I'd take going down the convservative policy rabbit hole a little to avoid becoming a nepotistic kleptocracy.

I think I would as well. At least this would be something we've seen before. Turning America into a kleptocracy is fucking scary.

[Week]

57 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

They are resenting white people, as clearly evidenced in their chants and in the list of demands they issue.

 

If they truly believed Black Lives Matter, they would be opposing the crime and poverty epidemic that is killing far more black men, and not focusing on a small minority of deaths that just so happens to further their narrative of racial injustice, which of course is going to spur racial resentment as well.

Have you ever met or spoken to anyone who supports BLM? This is patently absurd. This is pulled directly from Right orthodoxy with zero additional consideration, experience, and thought.

57 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

If they truly believed Black Lives Matter, they would be opposing the crime and poverty epidemic that is killing far more black men, and not focusing on a small minority of deaths that just so happens to further their narrative of racial injustice, which of course is going to spur racial resentment as well.

First, you can do more than one fucking thing at the same time. Second, same old "Muslims don't report" bullshit - there are enormous efforts to oppose crime with the Interruptors, outreach from churches, etc. etc. Just because you don't know about it (and can't be bothered to research or support it) doesn't mean that it does not exist.

 

46 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Here are their 6 demands:

Basically all of those except the first are a demand for special rights and privileges.

1. End the war on black people.

2. Reparations for past and continuing harms.

3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm black people; and investment in the education, health and safety of black people.

4. Economic justice for all and a reconstruction of the economy to ensure our communities have collective ownership, not merely access.

5. Community control of the laws, institutions and policies that most impact us.

6. Independent black political power and black self-determination in all areas of society

Consider - WLM demands:

1. End war on white people
2. Reparations for past and continuing harms
3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm white people; and investment in the education, health and safety of white people
4. Economic justice for all and a reconstructuion of the economy to ensure our communities have collective ownership, not merely access.
5. Community control of the laws, institutions and policies that most impact us.
6. Independent white political power and whiteself-determination in all areas of society

What a second...white people already have all these things because it is the STATUS QUO. These are not special privileges that BLM are asking for. They are asking for the same, equal treatment and rights that are already afforded other groups in this country.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

49 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Completely false.  I'm disappointed that the bar has gotten so low for 'openly racist' and 'advocating white supremacism' and I'm suggesting we consider the impact of thee attitudes. Nothing more.

Inversely, many of us would argue that your bar is ridiculously high. Trump has said several things that even Republicans have acknowledged are openly racist and disturbing. 

[mormont]

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Maybe you don't believe in all the BLM's policy solutions. Or maybe you don't always like their tactics or whatever. But, at the least, conservatives could you know try to engage these people in a serious manner.

Conservatives are now in government, so it's now their responsibility to do so. Voters can judge them on whether and how they live up to this.

46 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Here are their 6 demands:

Basically all of those except the first are a demand for special rights and privileges.

OK, so compromise and negotiate on the others, instead of using them as a stick to beat people with.

[Fez]

23 minutes ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

I'd take going down the convservative policy rabbit hole a little to avoid becoming a nepotistic kleptocracy.

 

7 minutes ago, Mexal said:

I think I would as well. At least this would be something we've seen before. Turning America into a kleptocracy is fucking scary.

 

I don't seeing us going full kleptocracy; I expect mostly the same levels of corruption as the Bush administration. Just with the Presidential family getting in on the action this time. And the stuff that will happen is easily reversible once there's a different President. Reversing the policy changes would be much harder.

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

44 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

This truly demonstrates what I'm talking about.

There is more too this than just crime in African American communities. There are issues of sentencing and incarceration disparities. I really never hear conservatives ever try to grapple with these issues.

As far as the economic issues, conservatives are more likely to believe that African Americans are less economically well off because they are "lazy" rather than attempting to grapple with the odious effects of historical discrimination.

All conservatives offer up is more criminal enforcement and more pull yourself up by the bootstraps ideology. And that's largely the reason why they dismiss all this and get defensive about it.

Nor do I ever hear the left try to grapple with why african americans make up the majority of violent crime while being a small percentage of the population.  That and recidivism rates account for sentencing and incarceration disparities.  In fact, when you look at the percentage of violent crime committed by african americans they are actually incarcerated well below where they should be.

6 minutes ago, Week said:

Have you ever met or spoken to anyone who supports BLM? This is patently absurd. This is pulled directly from Right orthodoxy with zero additional consideration, experience, and thought.

First, you can do more than one fucking thing at the same time. Second, same old "Muslims don't report" bullshit - there are enormous efforts to oppose crime with the Interruptors, outreach from churches, etc. etc. Just because you don't know about it (and can't be bothered to research or support it) doesn't mean that it does not exist.

 

Consider - WLM demands:

1. End war on white people
2. Reparations for past and continuing harms
3. Divestment from the institutions that criminalize, cage and harm white people; and investment in the education, health and safety of white people
4. Economic justice for all and a reconstructuion of the economy to ensure our communities have collective ownership, not merely access.
5. Community control of the laws, institutions and policies that most impact us.
6. Independent white political power and whiteself-determination in all areas of society

What a second...white people already have all these things because it is the STATUS QUO. These are not special privileges that BLM are asking for. They are asking for the same, equal treatment and rights that are already afforded other groups in this country.

I'm not getting any reparations for past and continuing harms.  I'm not getting any special investment in education, health and safety.  There are no small business loans directed at helping white people out.  And quite frankly if I said I wanted independent white political power and self-determination I'd be called a white nationalist, i.e. racist.

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Nor do I ever hear the left try to grapple with why african americans make up the majority of violent crime while being a small percentage of the population.  That and recidivism rates account for sentencing and incarceration disparities.  In fact, when you look at the percentage of violent crime committed by african americans they are actually incarcerated well below where they should be.

Because unlike the right, the left doesn't believe in race based explanations for these social ills.

If they are happening, then we on the left believe that the explanations must lie else where.

And there is the real possibility that some or many of the "tough on crime" approaches may make things worse.

But continue with your intellectual dodges.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

13 minutes ago, Week said:

What a second...white people already have all these things because it is the STATUS QUO. These are not special privileges that BLM are asking for. They are asking for the same, equal treatment and rights that are already afforded other groups in this country.

Exactly. Want to bet that he thinks white privilege is BS?

[The Killer Snark]

Re BLM - It's a known fact that white people are far more likely statistically to be attacked or killed by black people than the other way around, and especially in racially motivated attacks. It's a known fact that white people are actually more likely to be on the receiving end of police brutality or a shooting by police than black people. This is supported by all statistics. Black people are far, far more likely to get attacked or killed by other black people than by white people. With a 13 percent population representation, the black communities of America account for 80 percent of all crime. As uncomfortable as it is to admit it, this again is a much verified fact. Every single one of the black people killed in self defense by both white and black cops during the last few years, who's been used as a martyr by BLM in order to justify riots, and attacks on whites, and murders of cops of either colour, has been an armed criminal. BLM is a domestic terrorist organisation, not a civil rights movement, and it is indeed a racist supremacist one into the bargain. But when you have a movement whose main funder and organiser is George Soros, you can't expect it to be good for anything apart from inciting hatred. And white people in America, the same as Europe, are not a status quo.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

@Bold Barry WhitebeardProgressives do want better policing for black communities. We want police who are engaged with the communities, who understand and and support them, and are dialed in so that they know when something is up or who did what. We don't want police who just drive in, beat the crap out of some kids standing on corners, and leave.

Granted, I have almost no first hand experience of this, and most of my knowledge ab out policing in black communities comes from the Wire, but it still seems like I understand this a lot better than you do.