U.S. Politics: Confirming The Trumpocalypse

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, aceluby said:

I understand that we want doctors to be altruistic and only want what is best for their patients, but that is just not the case.  I've had plenty of experiences of surgeons recommending unnecessary surgeries; especially neck, back, and wrist issues.  Some doctors that are very good a performing surgery are very bad at exhausting all avenues before surgery.  

Doctors are people too and it's ridiculous to think that the workforce isn't the same as any other workforce.  Some are good.  A few are very good.  But most are average or below.  So we shouldn't be basing policy thinking that agreed upon doctor and patient solutions are infallible.  The non-regulatory approach has to assume that, and it's wrong.

Ace,

So the regulations will force doctors, when seconds count, to always come to the right decision?

[OldGimletEye]

4 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Can you guys take the Healthcare discussion to another thread?  It seems to have moved beyond politics...

And I'm not remembering Kal's nightmare now either...

Okay, fine, I'll stop talking about it. I'll talk about Trump liking to get pissed on or whatever.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, fine, I'll stop talking about it. I'll talk about Trump liking to get pissed on or whatever.

The important issues in the politics of the day.

[Kalbear]

12 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I don't know what that scenario was, but I am sure I put no faith in Republicans--any Republicans. They've demonstrated time and time again that although they may not much care for Donald Trump, they'll do nothing to hinder him. Unless the American people turn strongly and severely against The Donald, the GOP will back him at every turn.

My 'nightmare' scenario that I think @Tywin et al. is referring to is that this represents the last Democratically elected president of the US in my lifetime, and that the US will become an authoritarian kleptocracy. I'm increasingly starting to believe that this is the more likely scenario and is the optimistic one, and the nightmare scenarios are one where another war with nuclear weapons is started, global destabilization happens at a massive scale, and the entire world for human life essentially fails or falls back into post-apocalypse and decline. 

And my optimistic scenario is entirely based on your view as well - that I have zero faith in the Republican party to act in any interests other than their personal power and wealth, and for them the possibility of losing is far worse than the possibility of democracy dying. I see the press getting cracked down on, I see personal fiefdoms of government loyal to Trump first and foremost, I see massive corruption and deals being made that harm huge amounts of people, I see Muslims being blamed for a lot of it. 

With the intelligence community likely going to be purged, I also think it's very likely more terrorist attacks on US soil will happen successfully, and that will be used for further crackdowns.

I foresee that voting restrictions will continue to be put in place and put there heavily. Gerrymandering will not change in the slightest. Congress will never change hands. 

And finally, I foresee the states being able to do a constitutional convention and put forward constitutional amendments based entirely on state legislatures, and them succeeding. One of the earliest will be to repeal the 2-term limit, but there will be many others. 

[Kalbear]

Here's a good little tweet thread on the slide into authoritarianism. The first bit - that Trump actually brought cheering supporters to a press conference - should be chilling enough.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

My 'nightmare' scenario that I think @Tywin et al. is referring to is that this represents the last Democratically elected president of the US in my lifetime, and that the US will become an authoritarian kleptocracy.

I think they were mostly referring to your potential Healthcare nightmare.

[Kalbear]

Also, I am incredibly pissed off at the press at that press conference. They asked questions in a way that allowed Trump to weasel out of them, to talk past them, to bring up incredibly bizarre tangents and ignore them. The way you ask questions of Trump is NOT the way you ask Obama. You can't ask Trump a question about 'specific plans for the ACA'. You ask him simple, direct, yes or no questions. Straight up. 

• "When will the details of your ACA replacement plan be available?"
• "Will you release your tax records?"
• "Will you support more sanctions on Russia?"

Short, simple, yes or no. No allowances for garbage.

[Swordfish]

18 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

The US public already accepts a ton of rationing though.

 

But not of the type required by single payer.  It's apples and oranges.

 

18 hours ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, lets say I have a market for corn. And lets say, the corn production market is a purely competitive market. None of the producers are making any sort of economic profit. The supply curve goes up. And the there is demand curve goes down. And they intersect at p.

And then say, you give a subsidy to people for corn. I'm not going to be too surprised if the demand curve shifts and then you have a higher price along with a higher quantity of corn consumed.

But, let's say, the supply curve isn't purely competitive, and you  impose price controls, without causing a drop in the quantity supplied. And maybe you control demand by only giving some people a subsidy while imposing a tax on others. Is it the case the price will go up? Maybe not.

And if better access to healthcare can make people more productive, producing more out put then it's possible the total supply of goods could increase, lowering the total healthcare spending to total output.

Healthcare policy is hardly simple.

I'm going to read that paper very carefully.

In the meantime, I would be real careful if I were you about who you call "ACA fanatics".

Why?

Either way, I didn't call anyone an ACA fanatic.  i simply acknowledged that they exist, and that they are resistant to arguments that are critical of the ACA.  I have no idea why you find that problematic.

 

 

17 hours ago, Altherion said:

It would certainly require a massive realignment so I don't think it is likely, but, by any possible metric, the countries with single payer get roughly the same health care as the US or sometimes even better (on average). It's not that we're paying a whole lot more for a superior system and the alternative is a downgrade. We're paying a whole lot more for effectively the same thing because this allows certain groups to reap massive profits.

Hold the phone here...  The quality of care for those with access to it is really, really good in the US.  Where we slide is when you factor in accessibility.

You can certainly make a reasonable argument that it's inequitable, but that's a seperate argument.

And it's not like single payer is some kind of panacea.  Countries with those kinds of programs face all kinds of problems too.

That aside, I'm not at all convinced that single payer would be cheaper in the US, because I don't think people have the stomach for what it would take to implement it and also drive down costs.

Little johnny needs his accupunture, after all, and who are you to say he shouldn't get it for free??

 

1 hour ago, aceluby said:

I've been expecting the term to be thrown around loosely for months now.  Don't be surprised when those who only get their news from a single biased source to explain away anything that doesn't fit their preconceived notions as 'fake news'.

I think what we see with this golden shower story is the power of confirmation bias.  People want that story to be true sooooo bad, that they are willing to craft elaborate, nonsensical arguments about why it should be taken seriously at this point, despite the dearth of supporting evidence for it. it's a story no one believes unless it's about 'the other guy'.

Pointing these things out apparently has no real effect other than causing people to double down though, so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

 

 

[Swordfish]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

My 'nightmare' scenario that I think @Tywin et al. is referring to is that this represents the last Democratically elected president of the US in my lifetime, and that the US will become an authoritarian kleptocracy. I'm increasingly starting to believe that this is the more likely scenario and is the optimistic one, and the nightmare scenarios are one where another war with nuclear weapons is started, global destabilization happens at a massive scale, and the entire world for human life essentially fails or falls back into post-apocalypse and decline. 

And my optimistic scenario is entirely based on your view as well - that I have zero faith in the Republican party to act in any interests other than their personal power and wealth, and for them the possibility of losing is far worse than the possibility of democracy dying. I see the press getting cracked down on, I see personal fiefdoms of government loyal to Trump first and foremost, I see massive corruption and deals being made that harm huge amounts of people, I see Muslims being blamed for a lot of it. 

With the intelligence community likely going to be purged, I also think it's very likely more terrorist attacks on US soil will happen successfully, and that will be used for further crackdowns.

I foresee that voting restrictions will continue to be put in place and put there heavily. Gerrymandering will not change in the slightest. Congress will never change hands. 

And finally, I foresee the states being able to do a constitutional convention and put forward constitutional amendments based entirely on state legislatures, and them succeeding. One of the earliest will be to repeal the 2-term limit, but there will be many others. 

You're making some pretty persuasive pro second amendment arguments here.  

Nicely done.

[Ice Queen]

Just now, Swordfish said:

I think what we see with this golden shower story is the power of confirmation bias.  People want that story to be true sooooo bad, that they are willing to craft elaborate, nonsensical arguments about why it should be taken seriously at this point, despite the dearth of supporting evidence for it. it's a story no one believes unless it's about 'the other guy'.

Pointing these things out apparently has no real effect other than causing people to double down though, so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

Wow, the hypocrisy here is staggering. This from the crowd who believed every lie told about Obama--started and fueled by Trump for years--based on nothing but his say-so. 

Trump has a lot of balls to complain about fake news. He's started a lot of it himself. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

I think what we see with this golden shower story is the power of confirmation bias.  People want that story to be true sooooo bad, that they are willing to craft elaborate, nonsensical arguments about why it should be taken seriously at this point, despite the dearth of supporting evidence for it. it's a story no one believes unless it's about 'the other guy'.

Who's taking this story seriously? I haven't seen a single post or story that would suggest this.

[OldGimletEye]

5 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

But not of the type required by single payer.  It's apples and oranges.

Why?

Either way, I didn't call anyone an ACA fanatic.  i simply acknowledged that they exist, and that they are resistant to arguments that are critical of the ACA.  I have no idea why you find that problematic.

Normally, I'd file a response to this. But, I've been requested to stop. So, I have nothing further to say, at this juncture, about this matter.

Anyway, I think the reports about Trump liking to get pissed on are funny.

And I think Trump is jackass too.

[Swordfish]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Wow, the hypocrisy here is staggering. This from the crowd who believed every lie told about Obama--started and fueled by Trump for years--based on nothing but his say-so. 

Trump has a lot of balls to complain about fake news. He's started a lot of it himself. 

Uh...  I'm not Trump.  just to be clear. So I'm not exactly sure where the hypocrisy is.

 

 

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Who's taking this story seriously? I haven't seen a single post or story that would suggest this.

Posters in this thread have gone on at length about why it should be taken seriously.

 

1 minute ago, OldGimletEye said:

Normally, I'd file a response to this. But, I've been requested to stop. So, I have nothing to say, at this juncture.

Ha.  

[IheartIheartTesla]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Who's taking this story seriously? I haven't seen a single post or story that would suggest this.

The truth will come out eventually, at first in little dribs and drabs, leading to a trickle, and finally in a gush that will not splatter anyone unlucky to be caught in the sidelines of this story.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Swordfish said:

Posters in this thread have gone on at length about why it should be taken seriously.Ha.  

Where? 

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Where? 

Approx pages 5-9.  Give or take a page or two.

[TrueMetis]

7 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

 

But not of the type required by single payer.  It's apples and oranges.

I don't know that it is. Cause your either going to have people who couldn't afford healthcare, who aren't going to complain about rationing when their former reality was no healthcare at all. Or you're going to have people who could, for whom if rationing is a problem will be able to afford to do something about it. Indeed will likely be able to afford even more with less of their money going to general healthcare.

[BloodRider]

7 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

The Thin Red Line is probably the big mistake he will be remembered for. Backing down on his own ultimatum and letting Assad call his bluff has led to the situation we have now with a prolonged war only ended when Russia came in and backed a genocidal dictator.  It doesn't help that the US pulling out of Iraq created a power vacuum that ISIS moved into. His weakness has emboldened Russia, Turkey and China.  The world is certainly not a safer place after 8 years of Obama, in fact its worse. 

And thats really just the big one.

I wouldn't let Republicans off the hook for Trump at all, but is Trump a reaction to Obama? He's like the anti Obama in so many ways. The real culprit is the Democrats, who couldn't find a candidate to go up against the most unelectable man in recent history, and for Clinton who couldn't beat him.
 

How the weather in Macedonia?

[Ice Queen]

10 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Uh...  I'm not Trump.  just to be clear. So I'm not exactly sure where the hypocrisy is.

Didn't say you were Trump. But surely you can see the hypocrisy of the "confirmation bias" statement? 

[aceluby]

27 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Ace,

So the regulations will force doctors, when seconds count, to always come to the right decision?

Doctors will never always come to the right decision no matter what.  Two highly specialized doctors can come up with two very different treatments for the same issue.  Both could be right.  Both could be wrong.