Teen Littlefinger's Uriah Gambit

[ravenous reader]

44 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think this is where I heard the theory. Branches into different places, i.e. That Petyr told Rhaegar where Lyanna was going to be, having seen or heard about the "moment all the smiles died" and Rhaegar ran with it with Arthur and Oswell. Point is, Littlefinger wanted vengeance on Brandon and didn't necessarily intend for a war to happen, just that Brandon lost his life in a very undignified way.

Of the options listed in that theory, I tend to favor #4 (see below).

Btw, I have seen a similar pattern play out in the Prologue, read as an allegory -- basically, there is an invisible/hidden, self-interested, rather treacherous player who casually sends a word that goes unnoticed to most parties, including on a meta- level to most readers (in fact, you could call it a 'lazy parry'), but serves to invite havoc...This player, in my opinion, is represented by the figure of Will (Littlefinger's analogue in this scenario) and the treacherous word by the 'whispered prayer to the nameless gods of the wood' which succeeded in summoning the Others, with mortal consequences for his 'brother'.

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POSSIBILITIES

1.  Petyr came upon the Starks on their journey and secretly helped Lyanna escape in the night to meet Rhaegar, knowing that this would create a major dispute between the Starks and the reigning Targaryens. He maybe never dreamed how precisely it would work out in his favor.

2.  Either from his sick bed or from the road, Petyr informed Rhaegar of the Stark family moving south, as well as Lyanna's impending unwanted marriage, allowing Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent to intercept them and rescue Lyanna.

3.  Petyr in Petyr fashion encouraged Lyanna and Rhaegar to elope to catalyze an overthrow and the rebellion (which Rhaegar was already interested in, seemingly, and which Littlefinger might have known about from Hoster Tully meeting with the lords at Harrenhal). Chaos is a ladder...

4.  Littlefinger was the "word that reached Brandon" that Lyanna had been kidnapped.

5.  Littlefinger was seeking any distraction possible to prevent the wedding of Catelyn and Brandon, and he succeeded.

I have a name for this 'word that reached Brandon' -- I call it the 'killing word,' after the concept in the movie 'Dune'!

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Absolute bollocks. He was still a kid who was sent back home after getting his ass kicked and humiliated.

Dorian, I've heard you make this 'but he was a kid' argument before, which would work in our modern context perhaps, but not within GRRM's in-world setting, in which children grow up quickly, having to get married and assume other responsibilities at an earlier age than we might find reasonable from our modern perspective.  Jon Snow was 17 years old when he became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, for comparison.  Littlefinger was only 2 years younger than that at the time in question, by which time he'd already had sex, gotten someone pregnant, challenged someone to a duel, and was eminently capable of telling sophisticated lies after which he'd cover up his deviance convincingly enough to get away with it (I think Cat refers to his talent at seeming contrite and disguising the trace of his 'mischiefs').  That's the beauty of words -- words are one of the democratic currencies, in which even the lowborn can traffic in order to topple the high and mighty.  You don't need an extensive diplomatic 'network' in order to spread a few strategically-placed, choice rumors.

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He didn't have an opportunity to start building his network until he was put in charge of customs in gulltown. He is powerful now, as an adult after holding positions of power and importance. Yes he hated Brandon, yes he loved Cat, but the daughter of a Lord Paramount would not be traveling alone, and those companions are who told brandon and everyone else about Lyanna going with the prince 

There's no proof of the latter.  We just don't know much about any of these 'events leading to toj,' etc!  So it's a bit premature to call 'bollocks' on anything, until we're given more information to go by!  

[Philokles]

There is a big difference between being a mischievous kid and a duplicitous schemer. The ingredients were always there, but not yet cooked.

[ravenous reader]

4 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

There is a big difference between being a mischievous kid and a duplicitous schemer. The ingredients were always there, but not yet cooked.

Sorry, I really don't buy the 'but he was only a kid' Littlefinger apology, as I explained to DM above.  Robb Stark was 16 when he died -- only a year older than Littlefinger at the time of the duel.  At the time of his death, Robb was King of the North, married, commander of a vast army, capable of battle and political strategy (and I'm told 'masterful mummery' and 'kingly traps') and more.  You can't apply modern norms to corresponding age-appropriate expectations in GRRM's narrative.  Moreover, regardless of historical era, fictional or other, you don't have to be a 'duplicitous schemer' in order to tell lies and toy with people in a fashion which may start small and petty, but can actually have quite harmful and far-reaching consequences for a great many parties.  For example, had Bran not been thrown by Jaime from the tower and lost his recent memory, he could have caused quite a lot of political upheaval, had he reported what he'd witnessed at age 7, the twins' rumpy-pumpy complete with moaning and slapping and the rest of the sound effects!

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Dorian, I've heard you make this 'but he was a kid' argument before, which would work in our modern context perhaps, but not within GRRM's in-world setting, in which children grow up quickly, having to get married and assume other responsibilities at an earlier age than we might find reasonable from our modern perspective.  Jon Snow was 17 years old when he became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, for comparison.  Littlefinger was only 2 years younger than that at the time in question, by which time he'd already had sex, gotten someone pregnant, challenged someone to a duel, and was eminently capable of telling sophisticated lies after which he'd cover up his deviance convincingly enough to get away with it (I think Cat refers to his talent at seeming contrite and disguising the trace of his 'mischiefs').  That's the beauty of words -- words are one of the democratic currencies, in which even the lowborn can traffic in order to topple the high and mighty.  You don't need an extensive diplomatic 'network' in order to spread a few strategically-placed, choice rumors.

Don't forget robb became king at 15, and look at the results. All three of them made impulsive decisions about love that got them cut. Some got it worse than others. The point being is that Petyr would not have been in a position to build an intelligence network at that time. He was being fostered before the "kidnapping" and had been home for maybe a year, and he was not very rich.  He simply did not have the resources to have a varys like spy network keeping track of someone a kingdom away. Now, this is a fantasy novel, so technically anything is possible, but I highly doubt this one. 

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

There's no proof of the latter.  We just don't know much about any of these 'events leading to toj,' etc!  So it's a bit premature to call 'bollocks' on anything, until we're given more information to go by!  

and there is less than nothing behind the idea that petyr had a spy following the younger sister of the man who stole his first love, or the prince of dragonstone all over the riverlands waiting to report back to him with anything lurid 

[ravenous reader]

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Don't forget robb became king at 15, and look at the results. All three of them made impulsive decisions about love that got them cut. Some got it worse than others.

You are exactly right hitting on GRRM's preoccupation with how love burns all of us, that being one of the central themes he is working out in his fiction -- particularly, think of the taboo and dramatic conflict generated by all those explosive love triangles -- partly with reference to his own painful autobiographical experiences in this regard.  'A Song for Lya', for example was inspired by the woman, 'Lisa' -- he didn't even disguise the name that much, and then followed through by creating the character we know as 'Lyanna' -- with whom he was passionately involved at the time, leaving him for his best friend; his subsequent marriage was also rocky, 'a bridge over troubled water,' with emphasis on the troubled water rather than the bridge (see quote below)!  

That said, I would not therefore conclude that 'getting cut by love' is exclusively the province of the young, nor that GRRM's message is about the follies of youth necessarily, but rather more generally about the follies of the heart impacting on a personal as well as political scale, for example how the intimacy of a few fiery kisses stolen in relative obscurity can end up burning a nation.  I'm not referring to Lyanna and Rhaegar here; I'm referring to Petyr's obsession with, as you highlighted below, 'the man who stole his first love,' and that ever-elusive first love, ironically of which he remains in hot pursuit, even though she is physically dead, the latest 'reincarnation,' however, of which he finds in Sansa.  Where does the carnage end?

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In Love With Lisa

I first met Lisa Tuttle at a con in Dallas in the spring of 1973. I was living in Chicago and working for VISTA, and she was a college student in Syracuse, New York. The attraction was immediate and, I think, mutual, though both of us were involved with other people at the time, so nothing came of it immediately.

By the time we met for a second time, at the 1973 worldcon in Toronto, both of our existing relationships were ending, and things between us started to heat up. After the con we began to correspond. Lisa wrote a great letter (this was in the dark ages before email, remember), and the more I got to know her, the more I liked her.

During the next half year, she visited me in Chicago and I visited her in Los Angeles, where she had moved after graduating Syracuse. We became collaborators and we became lovers, and to tell the truth I don’t remember which came first. Though we still lived thousands of miles apart, I felt as though I had known her all my life, and was soon madly in love. It wasn’t until the spring of 1974 that Lisa fell in love… with someone else.

I won’t say that wasn’t hard, but we continued to correspond and collaborate, despite my broken heart and her bad taste in men. Today Lisa lives in Scotland with her husband (her taste in men got better) and daughter, and I live in New Mexico, so we are further apart than ever, but our friendship has only grown deeper and stronger over the decades.

...

Gale Burnick

I first met Gale Burnick at a Philcon, I believe, but it was at the 1974 worldcon in Washington, D.C. that we got together romantically. She was living in Philadelphia at the time, but she soon moved out to Chicago and in with me. This is us at the Nebula Banquet in NYC the following year.

938 West Argyle

Gale moved in with me a few weeks after Discon, but she did not like sharing the Margate apartment with all my roommates and cats, so after a couple of months we started looking for our own place. We found one a block north on Argyle Street. The new place was so close to the old that we didn’t hire movers or rent a truck. We did it all ourselves. Down three flights of creaky back steps, through the alleyways, across the street (dodging traffic, since we weren’t about to detour to the corner to cross), and then up two flights to our second floor apartment. Worst move I ever had, even though I was in much better shape then and did not own near as many books. I finally had my own office, instead of just a desk in my bedroom. It was there I wrote my first novel, Dying of the Light.

Wedded Bliss

After living together for a little more than a year, Gale and I were married in November, 1975. (She remained Gale Burnick, however, a point on which she was most adamant). Her mother flew in for the wedding, as did my own family, and of course all of my Chicago friends were on hand — fans and writers, chess buddies, old roomies. It was a great, fun wedding, one of the best. The marriage, not so much. Our wedding song was “Bridge Over Troubled Waters.” Maybe we should have taken that as a clue.

From: Not a Blog

 

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The point being is that Petyr would not have been in a position to build an intelligence network at that time. He was being fostered before the "kidnapping" and had been home for maybe a year, and he was not very rich.  He simply did not have the resources to have a varys like spy network keeping track of someone a kingdom away. Now, this is a fantasy novel, so technically anything is possible, but I highly doubt this one. 

and there is less than nothing behind the idea that petyr had a spy following the younger sister of the man who stole his first love, or the prince of dragonstone all over the riverlands waiting to report back to him with anything lurid 

Not being on top of the timelines the way many of you are, which admittedly leaves me with blind spots in relation to the text, I'm puzzled as to what you mean by Petyr 'had been home for maybe a year'?  I was under the impression that the duel with Brandon, Petyr's departure from Riverrun, Brandon's return from Winterfell, and Lyanna's disappearance all happened in closer temporal and spatial proximity than you are suggesting.  It might have been conceivable that Petyr's and Lyanna's paths crossed somewhere in the Riverlands, when Petyr was en route back to the Fingers following his convalescence.  

That's another of GRRM's themes -- the chance meeting at the crossroads, where the dice of destiny is rolled.  Note, in the following quote, how Tyrion tosses the gold coin in the air, at the moment all their lives are about to change forever, just before his abduction, the gamble symbolising the absurdity of the chance encounter with all its attendant deadly consequences, in line with the ethos in Robert Frost's poem, 'The Road Not Taken,' in which a quandary at the crossroads similarly presents.  Mythologically speaking, the tossing of the gold coin finds an echo in the tossing of the 'golden apple of discord', precipitating events leading to the Trojan War.  Similarly, Tyrion's abduction would escalate the so-called War of the Five Kings. 

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A Game of Thrones - Catelyn V

Masha Heddle was beside herself. "M'lord, there's nothing, it's the tourney, there's no help for it, oh …"

Tyrion Lannister pulled a coin from his purse and flicked it up over his head, caught it, tossed it again. Even across the room, where Catelyn sat, the wink of gold was unmistakable.

Instead of your notion that Petyr would have had to have commanded an elaborate spy network in the Riverlands, I'm positing a more accidental encounter -- akin to how Bran happens on the twincest in the tower (although Jaime later accuses him of spying: "A man who would violate his own sister, murder his king, and fling an innocent child to his death deserves no other name." Innocent? The wretched boy was spying on us.' ASOS -- Jaime I).  What I'm postulating is that en route back to his home in the Fingers, Petyr witnessed something by chance, out of which he profited opportunistically, by somehow being responsible for sending a skewed message based on what he'd seen to Brandon, in order to hurt his rival whom he understood to be very close to his sister, and knew might react rashly to any hint of a threat to her.  

Regarding the nature of what he witnessed, perhaps it was nothing 'lurid' at all, as you suggest, but something relatively innocent out which the mockingbird in contrast concocted lurid embellishments:

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A Clash of Kings - Tyrion III

"Your Grace, your brother has the right of this." Petyr Baelish steepled his fingers. "If we attempt to silence this talk, we only lend it credence. Better to treat it with contempt, like the pathetic lie it is. And meantime, fight fire with fire."

Cersei gave him a measuring look. "What sort of fire?"

"A tale of somewhat the same nature, perhaps. But more easily believed. Lord Stannis has spent most of his marriage apart from his wife. Not that I fault him, I'd do the same were I married to Lady Selyse. Nonetheless, if we put it about that her daughter is baseborn and Stannis a cuckold, well . . . the smallfolk are always eager to believe the worst of their lords, particularly those as stern, sour, and prickly proud as Stannis Baratheon."

"He has never been much loved, that's true." Cersei considered a moment. "So we pay him back in his own coin. Yes, I like this. Who can we name as Lady Selyse's lover? She has two brothers, I believe. And one of her uncles has been with her on Dragonstone all this time . . . "

"Ser Axell Florent is her castellan." Loath as Tyrion was to admit it, Littlefinger's scheme had promise. Stannis had never been enamored of his wife, but he was bristly as a hedgehog where his honor was concerned and mistrustful by nature. If they could sow discord between him and his followers, it could only help their cause. "The child has the Florent ears, I'm told."

Littlefinger gestured languidly. "A trade envoy from Lys once observed to me that Lord Stannis must love his daughter very well, since he'd erected hundreds of statues of her all along the walls of Dragonstone. 'My lord' I had to tell him, 'those are gargoyles.' " He chuckled. "Ser Axell might serve for Shireen's father, but in my experience, the more bizarre and shocking a tale the more apt it is to be repeated. Stannis keeps an especially grotesque fool, a lackwit with a tattooed face."

Grand Maester Pycelle gaped at him, aghast. "Surely you do not mean to suggest that Lady Selyse would bring a fool into her bed?"

"You'd have to be a fool to want to bed Selyse Florent," said Littlefinger. "Doubtless Patchface reminded her of Stannis. And the best lies contain within them nuggets of truth, enough to give a listener pause. As it happens, this fool is utterly devoted to the girl and follows her everywhere. They even look somewhat alike. Shireen has a mottled, half-frozen face as well."

Pycelle was lost. "But that is from the greyscale that near killed her as a babe, poor thing."

"I like my tale better," said Littlefinger, "and so will the smallfolk. Most of them believe that if a woman eats rabbit while pregnant, her child will be born with long floppy ears."

Cersei smiled the sort of smile she customarily reserved for Jaime. "Lord Petyr, you are a wicked creature."

"Thank you, Your Grace."

"And a most accomplished liar," Tyrion added, less warmly. This one is more dangerous than I knew, he reflected.

Littlefinger's grey-green eyes met the dwarf's mismatched stare with no hint of unease. "We all have our gifts, my lord."

The queen was too caught up in her revenge to take note of the exchange. "Cuckolded by a halfwit fool! Stannis will be laughed at in every winesink this side of the narrow sea."

"The story should not come from us," Tyrion said, "or it will be seen for a self-serving lie." Which it is, to be sure.

Once more Littlefinger supplied the answer. "Whores love to gossip, and as it happens I own a brothel or three. And no doubt Varys can plant seeds in the alehouses and pot-shops."

 

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

Sansa raised a hand to her mouth. "You cannot mean . . . she wanted to take me to Highgarden, to marry me to her grandson . . ."

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion IV

Just for a moment, he thought he saw a flicker of doubt in her eyes, but what she said was, "Why would Petyr lie to me?"

"Why does a bear shit in the woods?" he demanded. "Because it is his nature. Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people."

She took a step toward him, her face tight. "And what does that mean, Lannister?"

Tyrion cocked his head. "Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady."

"That is a lie!" Catelyn Stark said.

"Oh, wicked little imp," Marillion said, shocked.

Kurleket drew his dirk, a vicious piece of black iron. "At your word, m'lady, I'll toss his lying tongue at your feet." His pig eyes were wet with excitement at the prospect.

Catelyn Stark stared at Tyrion with a coldness on her face such as he had never seen. "Petyr Baelish loved me once. He was only a boy. His passion was a tragedy for all of us, but it was real, and pure, and nothing to be made mock of. He wanted my hand. That is the truth of the matter. You are truly an evil man, Lannister."

"And you are truly a fool, Lady Stark. Littlefinger has never loved anyone but Littlefinger, and I promise you that it is not your hand that he boasts of, it's those ripe breasts of yours, and that sweet mouth, and the heat between your legs."

Kurleket grabbed a handful of hair and yanked his head back in a hard jerk, baring his throat. Tyrion felt the cold kiss of steel beneath his chin. "Shall I bleed him, my lady?"

"Kill me and the truth dies with me," Tyrion gasped.

"Let him talk," Catelyn Stark commanded.

Kurleket let go of Tyrion's hair, reluctantly.

Tyrion took a deep breath. "How did Littlefinger tell you I came by this dagger of his? Answer me that."

"You won it from him in a wager, during the tourney on Prince Joffrey's name day."

"When my brother Jaime was unhorsed by the Knight of Flowers, that was his story, no?"

"It was," she admitted.

What comes naturally to Littlefinger is storytelling, a faculty not contingent on Petyr Baelish's age (as Cat confirms with the anecdote from their childhood together).  Catelyn is more right than she realizes when she says 'his passion was a tragedy for all of us' -- for the kingdom, in fact.  I don't know how it works out logistically (maybe you can tell me -- you excel at constructing arguments for about anything, out of anything, better than almost anyone else I've encountered here, to be honest... or maybe I'm confusing a witty comeback with a convincing theory... ); I don't know the details of how it happened or how he did it, but Littlefinger's meddling fingerprint is all over the inflammatory story of Lyanna's abduction.  When Brandon Stark left him with 'a token of his esteem,' Littlefinger returned the favor with interest, using his preferred currency -- Words  (Are we sure Littlefinger's not a Lannister?  A Lannister always pays his debts...).

I agree with @PrettyPig that there is a certain undeniable symmetry between the duel with Brandon shortly before 'the shit hits the fan' in the Riverlands, leading to the calling of the banners; and the one at the conclusion of that war, between Rhaegar and Robert Baratheon, as reflected in the ambiguity of Dany's vision of the man falling into the water, blood streaming from an abdominal wound, with the name of a woman whispered on his lips, a scene which could be interpreted to apply to Baelish just as well as Rhaegar.  Pretty speculates persuasively that perhaps we are meant to link the two duels, concluding that the one may have led to the other, the 'end' finding a literary reflection in its 'beginning', and from which only one man of four walked away.  Perhaps we've been mistakenly focusing our attention all this time on the wrong duel or duels? 

In a fencing match, there is a term 'counter-riposte,' which can equally apply to verbal versatility as much as fencing prowess:

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From wikiped: 'riposte'

In fencing, the riposte (French for "retort") is an offensive action with the intent of hitting one's opponent, made by the fencer who has just parried an attack.[1]

In everyday language, a riposte is synonymous with a retort and describes a quick and witty reply to an argument or an insult.

Etymology[edit]

In sabre and foil, the priority switches when the parry is successfully executed; the defending fencer now has right of way and may immediately attack with a riposte. The riposte may be direct, or may include compound footwork. If the riposte is delayed, the original attacker's remise gains priority. Riposte is analogous to kaeshi techniques in kendo.

When one sets up a second intention attack, the reactions of one's opponent must be predicted. A fencer may execute an attack expecting to be parried, preparing to counter-parry and counter-riposte.

See also[edit]

Touché

I believe Petyr executed a 'counter-riposte' to Brandon's 'riposte' in what @Unchained has referred to as the 'second round' of the duel.  In my words, this movement is what I've previously characterised in my 'killing word' essay as the 'counter-mocking' response to having been 'mocked'.  Thus, again, we can view Cat's words in a new light, when she says Petyr's passion was 'nothing to be made mock of.'  By rejecting her highly narcissistic, 'more than brotherly' suitor, agreeing to marry Brandon, and then adding insult to injury, refusing to grant him her token of affection in the duel, bestowing it instead on Brandon, both she and Brandon 'made mock of' Petyr -- for which they were both made to pay dearly, along with a few other parties who ended up as 'collateral damage' along the scorch-and-burn path of Petyr's vindictive passion (I wonder what Littlefinger has in store for Edmure, btw ? -- we're told that 'he never forgave' Edmure for agreeing to be Brandon's squire in the duel, so that's something to keep an eye on, going forward)!

 

 

The Scorpion and the Frog

  A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the 
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The 
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion 
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

  The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of 
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?" 

		Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

From:  Aesop's Fables

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

35 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

You are exactly right hitting on GRRM's preoccupation with how love burns all of us, that being one of the central themes he is working out in his fiction -- particularly, think of the taboo and dramatic conflict generated by all those explosive love triangles -- partly with reference to his own painful autobiographical experiences in this regard.  

 

So the ultimate message is that love is bad?

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

snip

 

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

snip

Are we certain that Robb's decision to marry Jeyne was just bad judgement on his part? Or can we entertain the possibility that he was drugged -- by the granddaughter of the woman who "half of Lannisport used to go to for cures and love potions and the like."

[Unchained]

11 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I believe Petyr executed a 'counter-riposte' to Brandon's 'riposte' in what @Unchained has referred to as the 'second round' of the duel.  In my words, this movement is what I've previously characterised in my 'killing word' essay as the 'counter-mocking' response to having been 'mocked'.  Thus, again, we can view Cat's words in a new light, when she says Petyr's passion was 'nothing to be made mock of.'  By rejecting her highly narcissistic, 'more than brotherly' suitor, agreeing to marry Brandon, and then adding insult to injury, refusing to grant him her token of affection in the duel, bestowing it instead on Brandon, both she and Brandon 'made mock of' Petyr -- for which they were both made to pay dearly, along with a few other parties who ended up as 'collateral damage' along the scorch-and-burn path of Petyr's vindictive passion (I wonder what Littlefinger has in store for Edmure, btw ? -- we're told that 'he never forgave' Edmure for agreeing to be Brandon's squire in the duel, so that's something to keep an eye on, going forward)!

 

I agree.  It is not a coincidence that Brandon dies by strangling himself.  Will can be thought of as doing the same to himself because it was his action that led to his strangulation.  Littlefinger is like the little brother reborn as a tricky greenseer.  Rickard is a burning King of Winter which I have recently been reminded is like AA entering the net.  Brandon trying to reach him is the driving force of his self-strangulation and so KoW seems to be the same as the tricky little reborn brother.  Strangulation is the preferred means of revenge of a lot of little brothers.  Obviously Cersei thinks about being strangled by her little brother.  Theon, the most straight up Grey King figure we have I think so that person may be the same as the KoW and the vengeful little brother,  imagines the rope grip of the bridge at Pyke where Balon's little brother kills him is the neck of his mocking older sister as he squeezes it.  It makes sense for the KoW to be the little brother getting revenge since that is when he appears to win his fight and get his revenge.  I think House Stark as a whole is like House Lannister's little brother, losing the fight in the summer and getting revenge in the winter.  Their members have mostly all become tricky invisible enemies.  Catelyn even thinks about strangling Cersei's white neck in the chapter at Riverrun when Ned's bones arrive.  A couple chapters later Tyrion notices her white neck with emeralds around it like he is checking it out for later.  Back to Littlefinger, who's nickname even sounds like little brother, I have no idea if he actually caused Brandon's death somehow, but it fits the pattern way too well to ignore.  Some other examples of the KoW getting revenge in the second counter-mocking round would be Ned at the ToJ, which I think represents undead Rhaegar, defeating Arthur, undead Robert, in a second fight over Lyanna.  Ned wins with the help of Howland, a CotF character, just like how the last hero defeats the Others with their help.  Pretty much everything has an echo in the Dance of Dragons.  This does too.  Rodrick Dustin leads the winter wolves south.  He kills some greens, but dies himself.  Then, Cregan Stark, who I take as his reborn version, comes south not for a northern girl like Lyanna, but a silver haired one he was promised.  He hands out some justice then under unknown circumstances at an unknown time duels the only Kingsguard as legendary as Arthur, the dragonknight.  Ned calls Arthur the "finest" knight he ever knew.  Aemon calls Cregan the "finest" swordsman he ever faced.  It's an obvious parallel both, I think, fought over women they thought they deserved or owned or needed to save.  That second round fight seems to be not a straight up fight, but rather a conflict played out in the WWnet, which is why we get the ToJ scene in a dream.  Also, both examples involving Starks fighting KG in the second round involve Valyrian steel against the same or whatever Dawn is assuming the Starks used Ice.  Those magic swords probably represent a fight done with magic, the greenseeing variety.  I also think another white cloak from the Dance involved is Criston.  Depending on who you believe, he either spurned or was spurned by Rhaenyra.  He became her enemy and fought her future husband Daemon in a tourney, knocking a Valyrian steel sword from his hand.  He also smashed up her rumored lover Harwin Strong at another tourney.  Once wearing her favor and once against the person who was.  He was one of the greens Rodrick kills.  I haven't figured out the details of the what the archetypeal story of this last part is yet, but it seems relevant.  

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

Are we certain that Robb's decision to marry Jeyne was just bad judgement on his part? Or can we entertain the possibility that he was drugged -- by the granddaughter of the woman who "half of Lannisport used to go to for cures and love potions and the like."

I think it is a little of both. Robb's gets manipulated into bedding the girl then takes the "honorable" choice and decides to marry. The action that started his downfall.

[Seams]

9 hours ago, Unchained said:

. . .  I think House Stark as a whole is like House Lannister's little brother, losing the fight in the summer and getting revenge in the winter. . . . Back to Littlefinger, who's nickname even sounds like little brother, I have no idea if he actually caused Brandon's death somehow, but it fits the pattern way too well to ignore.  Some other examples of the KoW getting revenge in the second counter-mocking round would be Ned at the ToJ, which I think represents undead Rhaegar, defeating Arthur, undead Robert, in a second fight over Lyanna.  Ned wins with the help of Howland, a CotF character, just like how the last hero defeats the Others with their help.  Pretty much everything has an echo in the Dance of Dragons.  . . . Then, Cregan Stark, who I take as his reborn version, comes south not for a northern girl like Lyanna, but a silver haired one he was promised.  He hands out some justice then under unknown circumstances at an unknown time duels the only Kingsguard as legendary as Arthur, the dragonknight.  Ned calls Arthur the "finest" knight he ever knew.  Aemon calls Cregan the "finest" swordsman he ever faced.  It's an obvious parallel both, I think, fought over women they thought they deserved or owned or needed to save.  . . . both examples involving Starks fighting KG in the second round involve Valyrian steel against the same or whatever Dawn is assuming the Starks used Ice.  Those magic swords probably represent a fight done with magic, the greenseeing variety.  I also think another white cloak from the Dance involved is Criston.  Depending on who you believe, he either spurned or was spurned by Rhaenyra.  He became her enemy and fought her future husband Daemon in a tourney, knocking a Valyrian steel sword from his hand.  He also smashed up her rumored lover Harwin Strong at another tourney.  Once wearing her favor and once against the person who was.  He was one of the greens Rodrick kills.  I haven't figured out the details of the what the archetypal story of this last part is yet, but it seems relevant.

This is good.

I agree that we don't have enough information yet to know whether Littlefinger lured Brandon to King's Landing, but the circumstantial evidence could point that way.

I can't get over a suspicion that Littlefinger knew, going into the duel with Brandon, that he couldn't possibly win the swordfight. So he tried to stay alive long enough to manipulate Brandon into stepping into the river. I don't know why this would be the case, but that's what I see when I re-read that scene. We would have to pin down the symbolism of rivers in order to understand this, and that is a big task. Aside from the wolf / flow wordplay, the first place I would look, though, would be the way that the river brings lost things to the Quiet Isle. Many of the lost things seem to come from combat - swords and helms and (we suspect) Rhaegar's rubies. If the rubies represent blood, maybe Littlefinger wanted his and Brandon's blood to mingle in the river? I don't know but it would be interesting to figure it out.

For what it's worth, he creates a similar situation when he leads Ned along a narrow, rocky path out of the Red Keep to the river at King's Landing. In a long-ago post, I brought up the nonsensical geography of that secret path to the brothel where Catelyn was hiding: Ned and Littlefinger took great pains to hide their trail getting out of the Red Keep but then have to pass through a gate to get back into the city, where they would immediately be seen and (likely) recognized. Some people thought GRRM had just made a mistake or changed his mind, and that he intended the river to run through the city when he was writing AGoT, but later changed his mind and placed it outside of the city walls. But maybe Littlefinger was again leading a Stark to a river, for some reason.

Further up in the comments on this thread, someone pointed out that the news about Lyanna came from the Harrenhal area, and that Baelish couldn't have been the source of that news. But I know there is a theory in this forum that the Kettleblacks, apparently loyal servants of Baelish, are disguised members of House Whent. Could the Whents have provided Baelish with the scuttlebutt about Lyanna, possibly even serving as his messengers to Brandon as he recuperated from his wounds?

@Unchained your post, with its good examples of fights over women leading to sword combat, brought to mind the song The Dornishman's Wife. This song is introduced in a Jon POV, and it may hold a clue to his past and his future.

P.S. Although I think this OP is worth pursuing and the discussion here has been good, I am also suspicious that we are putting too much stock in Littlefinger's burning need for revenge and his supposed undying love for Catelyn. I wonder whether the original Baelish might have died of his wounds in that duel, and a faceless man has been using his identity. But that may be a topic for another thread.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

P.S. Although I think this OP is worth pursuing and the discussion here has been good, I am also suspicious that we are putting too much stock in Littlefinger's burning need for revenge and his supposed undying love for Catelyn. I wonder whether the original Baelish might have died of his wounds in that duel, and a faceless man has been using his identity. But that may be a topic for another thread.

More the former than the latter, I guess and a threat to Lyanna was just the thing that would send Brandon on a Leeroy Jenkins. The war wasn't necessarily intended, but the death of Brandon? Yes.

[StarkofWinterfell]

On 6/29/2017 at 6:03 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

she was abducted within 10 leagues of harrenhal, like on the river road, which lies inside that radius. i do agree with this theory, its just so hard to pin down exactly where petyr is at the time of the abduction. might it have been my posting on this that prompted your question? 

my theory is that if petyr was either in riverrun, or on the road, and he would have either taken the river road or boat down the red fork, he would have been in position to intercept the message from lyanna. dam nmartin for not giving us something definite. if we could pin down his exact location at the point of time, then we could be far more certain.

what gave me the idea actually came from fanfic, a song of sweet roses, on fanfic.net. there a littel time travel involved, but during it, sansa watches that duel between brandon and petyr, and wonders if that moment is what started the rebellion. it does make a lot sense, given what we know about petyr and how he operates.

for littelfinger to get home, he would have had to take either the river road or the red fork down to the saltpans, then take ship around the coast of the vale to reach the fingers. its round about, but likely the fastest way.

makes you wonder what might have happened if lyanna's message, the correct one, had managed to reach winterfell and the eryie.

How in the world could Sansa possibly watch that duel? She wasn't even born yet

[Lord Wraith]

34 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

How in the world could Sansa possibly watch that duel? She wasn't even born yet

No doubt Bran tree timetraveling vision.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

No doubt Bran tree timetraveling vision.

Can she? Sansa hasn't really shown any sign of extraordinary powers like warging or being a Greenseer.

[Unchained]

17 hours ago, Seams said:

This is good.

I agree that we don't have enough information yet to know whether Littlefinger lured Brandon to King's Landing, but the circumstantial evidence could point that way.

I can't get over a suspicion that Littlefinger knew, going into the duel with Brandon, that he couldn't possibly win the swordfight. So he tried to stay alive long enough to manipulate Brandon into stepping into the river. I don't know why this would be the case, but that's what I see when I re-read that scene. We would have to pin down the symbolism of rivers in order to understand this, and that is a big task. Aside from the wolf / flow wordplay, the first place I would look, though, would be the way that the river brings lost things to the Quiet Isle. Many of the lost things seem to come from combat - swords and helms and (we suspect) Rhaegar's rubies. If the rubies represent blood, maybe Littlefinger wanted his and Brandon's blood to mingle in the river? I don't know but it would be interesting to figure it out.

For what it's worth, he creates a similar situation when he leads Ned along a narrow, rocky path out of the Red Keep to the river at King's Landing. In a long-ago post, I brought up the nonsensical geography of that secret path to the brothel where Catelyn was hiding: Ned and Littlefinger took great pains to hide their trail getting out of the Red Keep but then have to pass through a gate to get back into the city, where they would immediately be seen and (likely) recognized. Some people thought GRRM had just made a mistake or changed his mind, and that he intended the river to run through the city when he was writing AGoT, but later changed his mind and placed it outside of the city walls. But maybe Littlefinger was again leading a Stark to a river, for some reason.

Further up in the comments on this thread, someone pointed out that the news about Lyanna came from the Harrenhal area, and that Baelish couldn't have been the source of that news. But I know there is a theory in this forum that the Kettleblacks, apparently loyal servants of Baelish, are disguised members of House Whent. Could the Whents have provided Baelish with the scuttlebutt about Lyanna, possibly even serving as his messengers to Brandon as he recuperated from his wounds?

@Unchained your post, with its good examples of fights over women leading to sword combat, brought to mind the song The Dornishman's Wife. This song is introduced in a Jon POV, and it may hold a clue to his past and his future.

P.S. Although I think this OP is worth pursuing and the discussion here has been good, I am also suspicious that we are putting too much stock in Littlefinger's burning need for revenge and his supposed undying love for Catelyn. I wonder whether the original Baelish might have died of his wounds in that duel, and a faceless man has been using his identity. But that may be a topic for another thread.

 

I think that Littlefinger getting defeated in the river is for the same reason that his fellow round one loser Rhaegar is also defeated in one.  Rhaegar is killed by a storm lord's hammer, in the water, it's a clue that the hammer of the waters was done over a woman.  Just like how Cregan came south over a woman and a pact.  Littlefinger's abdominal cut is a clue that Jon was born via C-section delivered by Ned in some sort of AA and NN recreation where the blade goes into the woman and out come Lightbringer, in this case Jon.  Another person who is killed trying to carry off a woman at sword point is Viserys.  He is ranting about not getting his payment in a pact and is trying to take Dany back.  He puts his sword against Dany's belly and says he will 'cut the bastard out'.  Littlefinger leading Ned to the river is something like that.  His apple he throws in the river must be a hammer blow in some way, or about the trick that led to the hammer blow.  I think it is a Garden of Eden thing.  Viserys is said to be a 'shadow of a snake' and LF is associated with apples.  They are like lucifer maybe.  I remember seeing you on @sweetsunray's thread a longtime ago which included comparing LF to Loki in the myth where he steals the goddess whose keeps the magic apples to his stealing Sansa.  I recommend looking at the 1001 nights story "the three apples".  A vizier, same thing as a hand of the king, is working on a murder mystery, just like Ned is when following LF to the river.  It involves a tricky slave archetype who uses an apple to create a lot of chaos.  I think that is what LF and Ned's interaction is based on.  The slave steals an apple and gets a husband to kill his wife thinking she was unfaithful, like Euron does to Vic and AA is of course a wife killer, he almost succeeds in killing his master the vizier with his trick.  The slave, like a tricky greenseer, tricks AA into dropping the hammer/killing his wife.  LF's game is getting Ned to fuck things up and kill himself just like how Brandon strangles himself possibly also caused by LF.  The Grey King tricks the storm god into giving his fire to him that's the guy we are trying to figure out I think.  

[kissdbyfire]

On 28/06/2017 at 5:52 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Petyr Timeline: 

1. Petyr challenges Brandon for Catelyn's hand. Brandon slashes Petyr a dozen times, including a backhand that left Petyr near death. 

2. Petyr is bedridden for a fortnight, Lysa sleeps with Petyr at least once.

3. Once Petyr is well enough, he is sent back to Fingers. Now ambiguous time is: How long does it take to get from Riverrun to the Fingers? 

 

Timeline for everything else: 

1. Rhaegar abducts Lyanna. Where was Lyanna abducted from in the Riverlands?

2. Brandon goes to King's Landing with 200 men, including Elbert Arryn and Ethan Glover, and arrested for threatening the absent Rhaegar.

3. Lord Rickard travels to King's Landing to ransom his son and is imprisoned.

4. Trial by "combat", Lord Rickard is burned alive, Brandon is strangled. 

But we know from Ned that after Brandon fights w/ Littlefinger, Brandon has had the opportunity to speak "often, and with some heat" about LF to Ned.

[Prof. Cecily]

8 hours ago, Unchained said:

 

Spoiler

I think that Littlefinger getting defeated in the river is for the same reason that his fellow round one loser Rhaegar is also defeated in one.  Rhaegar is killed by a storm lord's hammer, in the water, it's a clue that the hammer of the waters was done over a woman.  Just like how Cregan came south over a woman and a pact.  Littlefinger's abdominal cut is a clue that Jon was born via C-section delivered by Ned in some sort of AA and NN recreation where the blade goes into the woman and out come Lightbringer, in this case Jon.  Another person who is killed trying to carry off a woman at sword point is Viserys.  He is ranting about not getting his payment in a pact and is trying to take Dany back.  He puts his sword against Dany's belly and says he will 'cut the bastard out'.  Littlefinger leading Ned to the river is something like that.  His apple he throws in the river must be a hammer blow in some way, or about the trick that led to the hammer blow.  I think it is a Garden of Eden thing.  Viserys is said to be a 'shadow of a snake' and LF is associated with apples.  They are like lucifer maybe.  I remember seeing you on @sweetsunray's thread a longtime ago which included comparing LF to Loki in the myth where he steals the goddess whose keeps the magic apples to his stealing Sansa.

 I recommend looking at the 1001 nights story "the three apples".  A vizier, same thing as a hand of the king, is working on a murder mystery, just like Ned is when following LF to the river.  It involves a tricky slave archetype who uses an apple to create a lot of chaos.  I think that is what LF and Ned's interaction is based on.  The slave steals an apple and gets a husband to kill his wife thinking she was unfaithful, like Euron does to Vic and AA is of course a wife killer, he almost succeeds in killing his master the vizier with his trick.  The slave, like a tricky greenseer, tricks AA into dropping the hammer/killing his wife.  LF's game is getting Ned to fuck things up and kill himself just like how Brandon strangles himself possibly also caused by LF.  The Grey King tricks the storm god into giving his fire to him that's the guy we are trying to figure out I think.  

Thanks for giving me an excuse to reread the 1001 Nights!

In Richard Burton's translation, of course.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/burt1k1/

Here's the story of the three apples

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/burt1k1/tale09.htm

9 hours ago, Unchained said:

LF's game is getting Ned to fuck things up and kill himself just like how Brandon strangles himself possibly also caused by LF.  

How do you think LF did this?

 

[Unchained]

4 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

How do you think LF did this?

You mean how did he get Brandon on a path of self destruction?  I have no idea how or even if he did.  I just think it fits as a great parallel to known situations that are similar.  He must have had information about Rhaegar and/or Lyanna.  Maybe he was able to make the "abduction" look worse than whatever happened really was.  

[Prof. Cecily]

 

 

 

13 minutes ago, Unchained said:

9 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

How do you think LF did this?

You mean how did he get Brandon on a path of self destruction?  I have no idea how or even if he did.  I just think it fits as a great parallel to known situations that are similar.  He must have had information about Rhaegar and/or Lyanna.  Maybe he was able to make the "abduction" look worse than whatever happened really was.  

My question was in reference to your comment

 

9 hours ago, Prof. Cecily said:

  18 hours ago, Unchained said:

LF's game is getting Ned to fuck things up and kill himself just like how Brandon strangles himself possibly also caused by LF.  

I'm not saying you're wrong- I was just curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

I hope TWOW clears these questions up!

[Unchained]

23 minutes ago, Prof. Cecily said:

I'm not saying you're wrong- I was just curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

If you are asking me how Littlefinger got Brandon on a path of self destruction, I don't know and I not going to claim that it is a fact that Littlefinger had anything to do with it.  It just would parallel lots of other events really well if in fact it turns out he tipped of Brandon about an "abduction" that was really something else.  If you are asking me how Littlefinger got Ned on a path of self destruction, I am just referring to the tricks he plays on him.  He makes Ned think the Lannisters killed Jon when in fact it was Littlefinger himself.  He makes Cat think Tyrion tried to kill Bran.  Cat abducting someone and starting a war based on false information supplied by Littlefinger would be another event that would parallel the possible event of him also being involved with the start of Robert's rebellion and Brandon's death.  After Cat takes Tyrion, Jaime goes to take revenge on Ned.  Ned would have been safely outside of King's Landing, but LF got him to stay by telling him where he could find a lead on the murder investigation LF set up for Ned to be on.  Basically LF set up Ned to come to King's Landing get in over his head and fall and was there to make sure it happened the whole way.