Ser Loras The Gay Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 I really don't understand why we have just 4 houses at that meeting. Let's count how many kingdoms they left behind. We have Daenerys Targaryen who was representing no kingdom at all (since she didn't conquer any of them, and both the sand snakes(dorne) and Oleanna Tyrell(reach) died before the meeting) We have Jon snow and Brienne representing the North We have the Euron Greyjoy representing the iron islands We have Cersei and Jaime Lannister representing the Westernlands So, we have 2 kingdoms and a rebelous island being directly represented. We are missing a representative from, Vale, Dorne, Riverlands, Reach and Stormlands. At no time it's either implied or explained that Cersei is representing all of the kingdoms cited above and we have for sure a Lord ruling the Vale and a hostage (Edmure tully) that could represent Riverland, but the show since season 6 pretend they don't exist anymore. We don't have any clue for who is trying to get control of Dorne, Reach and the Stormlands. The show should explain at least why Edmure and Robert Arryn weren't present, even if we are going with the argument "but Edmure is a hostage he doesn't have the power to negotiate", Robert has and should use the power he has as Protector of the Vale (now that Littlefinger is dead) if we are going with the argument "but the Vale's forces are within Winterfell, so they're allies with the Starks, therefore Jon is speaking on his behalf" they could simply stated at the start of the meeting who was representing who. They never bothered showing other kingdoms or even talking about them, it's like they don't even exist anymore. Every single fighter from the vale is in Winterfell (we really don't know why they're there so long since the Vale needs men), Dorne after the sand snakes were killed don't exist anymore, the Stormlands after the death of Renly was never brought up again, the reach has no ruler now and the Riverlands don't have any Freys left so they act like it doesn't exist either. I really wanted to understand why the show keeps reducing Westeros to: Starks, Lannisters and Targaryens like they're the only thing that not just matters but like they're the only houses that exists anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmontea Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Frustrating. I was hoping for a gathering of all the lords of the realm. Then it would have made the whole wight hunt better because it wouldn't be about just convincing Cersei but the whole realm. Unfortunatley, in the show the lessor houses just don't matter now. They have collapsed the story to just the core three families we were introduced to in episode 1. It has always been like this unfortunatley. The most a region would be represented would be through its great family. But even in season 1 what the hell was going on with the Riverlands? Why wasn't Robb their king as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoo Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Martells are destroyed. Tyrells are destroyed. Tullies are destroyed. Freys are destroyed. Aryns are under the King in the North. What's left is the Targ invader, the Starks KitN, the Lannisters QinS, and the Greyjoys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneColdJorahMormont Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Is there any other great houses left in the other kingdoms? I took it Cersei had taken control of all the others ( dorne,highgarden etc..) and The Vale is now in support of Jon the King of the north... The Twins is just an empty Castle now after Arya was over for supper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinscS2 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Jon Snow and Brienne where there, representing the Starks of the North and the Arryns of the Vale. It's strange that the Vale didn't have their own representative, but the North and the Vale are allies and have a common interest, so I'm willing to let their lack of representative slide. Jamie and Cersei where there, representing the Lannisters of the Crownlands and the Westerlands. Euron and Theon where there, representing the two Greyjoy factions of the Iron Islands. Daenerys and Tyrion where there, representing House Targaryen. House Tyrell and House Tarly are both legally extinct, so no representative from the Reach is available. House Martell is legally extinct, and with the Sandsnakes dead, so no representative from Dorne is available. House Baratheon is legally extinct, so no representative from the Stormlands is available House Frey is legally extinct, and the last living member of House Tully is a prisoner in an unknown location, so no representative from the Riverlands is available That's all the major houses that could've potentially represent one of the seven kingdoms at this stage. The show hasn't really highlighted any other big houses that could potentially be considered acting rulers of either kingdoms. I wouldn't mind if it had, but I see no problem with only House Stark, Arryn, Targaryen, Greyjoy and Lannister being present at the meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJay Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 "legally" extinct or not. Lands just don't go Lord less. They nerd to be represented because someone is in charge. And winterfel is not the vale. Sansa cannot make decisions for another lord paramount that has not sworn fealty to her. Especially if the one making the alliance is a scheming murderer who was just executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Gathering all the lords of the realm could have taken months.. Cerise is the one that needed convincing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 It was not a Great Council of the Lords. There were only 2 sides. Cersei is the queen of the 7K. No other lord was requested. Euron is in her team. Not much more than Jaime, even if he is king (with Cersei good will) of the Iron Islands. He had not say in the negotiations. The other side was Daenerys and Jon. Daenerys's main supporters are all dead. There are other Bannermen and heirs in the Reach or Dorne. But I understand they're not much eager to side with her. The Vale is with Jon. The Riverland's lords are siding either with Jon or the queen. But anyway, their presence was not requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 3 hours ago, MrJay said: "legally" extinct or not. Lands just don't go Lord less. They nerd to be represented because someone is in charge. You're talking reality. Or maybe the novels. In the show, the Stormlands have been Lordless for years, with no apparent ill effects. The Riverlands seem to even be doing better with no Lord than they did under the Freys—we see soldiers bored with their duty, merchants excited about profits on food, and the rest of the smallfolk just going about their everyday lives. The show is anarchist propaganda, whether it's trying to be or not. Or, more realistically: All the other lands are run by people who are either isolationists or puppets or both, and, even more importantly, who are too weak to make a difference even if they wanted to. The feudal system depends on strong vassals to call the banners for you, and there are none of those. If Elia Sand, Talla Tarly, Sweetrobin, whichever Frey daughter managed to get to the Twins fastest and declare herself regent for her 3-year-old son, and whoever's been running the Stormlands so quietly that nobody's mentioned their name in years all tried to call their banners for either Dany or Cersei in their war against each other, nobody would show up. For the war against the dead, that's a different story. But Cersei calling all the banners of the entire kingdom with Dany's assent, and Jon's and Sansa's for the Vale, that's going to get a lot more people than expecting the weak lords to do it for them. (Of course we know Cersei was lying when she offered that, but obviously Dany and friends don't.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrJay Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 4 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said: Gathering all the lords of the realm could have taken months.. Cerise is the one that needed convincing. I find someone making a "Travel Time" argument after this season to be hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 11 hours ago, Hoo said: Martells are destroyed. Tyrells are destroyed. Tullies are destroyed. Freys are destroyed. Aryns are under the King in the North. What's left is the Targ invader, the Starks KitN, the Lannisters QinS, and the Greyjoys. Tullys aren't destroyed. There's Edmure, Roslin and little Tully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knight of Flours Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Tullys aren't destroyed. There's Edmure, Roslin and little Tully. Lots of little Freys too you would think since I can't recall Arya poisoning a bunch of kids at the Twins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadlines? What Deadlines? Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 49 minutes ago, MrJay said: I find someone making a "Travel Time" argument after this season to be hilarious. I'm glad you are amused, but I didn't mention "time travel". And, it still doesn't change the fact that the purpose of the meeting was to get the Crown on side and time was critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 44 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Tullys aren't destroyed. There's Edmure, Roslin and little Tully. Tullys don't really matter. They're an attainted house led by a prisoner with no rights and no claim. He's not going to be raising any armies for anyone. Things are different in the books. He's still in transport to Casterly Rock, through territory filled with multiple BwB groups, thousands of Riverland and Northern soldiers who can't get home, lords who held out separately and were allowed to surrender without punishment, the Blackfish, etc. But on the show, anyone who was interested in fighting for Edmure Tully already made their stand at Riverrun and it's over. Of course after the war, Dany might well want to reverse the attainder, or nullify all of Joffrey's verdicts, or just grant the Riverlands anew to Edmure or his son, or whatever. But so far, she hasn't even mentioned that she's heard of him, much less that she considers him to be Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. So he's as meaningless as anyone else rotting in the cells under the Twins. Hopefully Walder's underage widow remembers to feed those prisoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 12 hours ago, falcotron said: Hopefully Walder's underage widow remembers to feed those prisoners. Who is currently holding Riverrun? Is it still the Freys? If Edmure is still a prisoner in the Twins, who is holding it? A bunch of Frey women? Brigands like the BwB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapho Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 40 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said: Who is currently holding Riverrun? Is it still the Freys? If Edmure is still a prisoner in the Twins, who is holding it? A bunch of Frey women? Brigands like the BwB? Walder Frey had tons of sons, grandsons and great-grandsons. I don't think Arya got them all. It's probably still held by the Freys though I'd suspect that some other houses are starting to see a chance of becoming the top house in the Riverlands themselves. There could be civil war there right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 18 minutes ago, Zapho said: Walder Frey had tons of sons, grandsons and great-grandsons. I don't think Arya got them all. It's probably still held by the Freys though I'd suspect that some other houses are starting to see a chance of becoming the top house in the Riverlands themselves. There could be civil war there right now. Yes. In books, Tywin own sister is married with one of Walder's sons. And they are the holders of Riverrun. Beside girls married to a few lords, Walder had some sons, squire or page at different places. One is even a septon. We're not updated on Riverrun and the Twins. Maybe we will never be. But I expect they will get new owners soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddard the Builder Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 It does kind of bug me Edmure isn't even so much as mentioned this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 On 9/14/2017 at 9:12 AM, Ser Loras The Gay said: We are missing a representative from, Vale, Dorne, Riverlands, Reach and Stormlands. What really didn't work for me was the necessity for that meeting at all. Dany was in a position to destroy Cersei from the moment she stepped on Dragonstone...but she did not, and the show never bothered to give a believable reason. It was as if they needed this extra season, so they devoted it to a ridiculous contest between Dany and Cersei. What was even more insane was this meeting, presented as an armistice. Why would Dany, overpowered, agree to talks with Cersei? Why does Dany need this alliance? Cersei is a terrible ally: she's weak, so brings little in terms of military backing. She's unreliable, insane, prone to betray. Her only ally on Westeros is Euron, so it's not like an alliance with her is crucial to uniting Westeros. An alliance with her might do the opposite. A better meeting would have involved not Cersei, who should have gone down episode one, but the remaining houses in various regions. Also, yeah, I'd like to know what's going on in the Reach, in Dorne, in the Stormlands. Their lords paramount are all gone. So how will Dany and Jon convince them to send armies to fight the Walkers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcotron Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said: Who is currently holding Riverrun? Is it still the Freys? If Edmure is still a prisoner in the Twins, who is holding it? A bunch of Frey women? Brigands like the BwB? We don't know for sure, and I doubt the show will ever give us the answers, or even that D&D have them. But my best guesses are: Lothar Frey's castellan is temporarily holding RIverrun, Edmure is still a prisoner in the Twins, and the little widow Kitty Frey is technically holding the Twins but with no real power. I can give reasoning if you want for why I think these are the most likely options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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