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Star Trek: Discovery #2, set phasers to stunned.

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7 hours ago, williamjm said:

 

I do sometimes think that Section 31 feel a bit like the slightly less cooler younger sibling of Special Circumstances from Iain M. Banks' Culture series but until we get a Culture adaptation I suppose they'll have to do.

I haven't read many of the culture books yet but the premise behind them does feel like a better realised federation. I recall in consider phlebas that the protagonists would essentially mirror that of the Klingons in this show.

It would make a great TV show which, if faithful to the books, would have to be an anthology series with a different cast per book/season. That's probably what puts people off trying to adapt although we are getting more anthology season shows - the question is how successful they are.  Sometimes they feel like an obvious niche in the market. In between a TV show and a film in terms of storytelling. A brave network would give it a shot before Star Wars does it.

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

I've seen comments that they're very excited and have big plans for what to do with the second season narrative if they get it, so I don't think it will linger just being dragged out past the first season narrative. There are plans.

The interesting and exciting thing for me is that the technology they are playing with does allow them to fully embrace the exploration element of Trek and hopefully the intention behind the new show is to play around with all the ingredients that have made up Trek over the years.

So the tribble was just one of many weapons they are developing?

 

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5 hours ago, karaddin said:

I don't not super well versed in prior Trek, so forgive me if what I say isn't possible but: Isn't it possible that very darkness is why this series had to be a prequel? In the formative time of the Federation it hasn't yet settled into the happy utopia you all love, and when war breaks out with the Klingons they set Section 31 loose. Bad stuff happens, and as has been suggested already this is what makes Star Fleet become the Star Fleet of the other series and makes Section 31 the marginalised joke they seem to be from comments in this thread. That they're given much more by way of resources back then and it backfires, resulting in less investment later and a very rigid code of conduct for the fleet.

That at least justifies why a prequel instead of a sequel.

I've seen comments that they're very excited and have big plans for what to do with the second season narrative if they get it, so I don't think it will linger just being dragged out past the first season narrative. There are plans.

Your idea would make sense... if the show conveyed any shred of evidence that they care about world-building or established canon. But virtually all the design-choices are a mess, they are shoving a ton of real-world idiologies they want to make potshots at into the throats of their fake ass Klingons even if that directly contradicts everything we know about their culture and and the story they are weaving could literally take place at nearly any given point in the timeline, making the prequel thing mostly an ill-advised marketing decision that everyone hated when announced.

They disregard all established canon and want only to tell their own story, so why should they pay attention to the development of Section 31 and reconnect it with their portrayal in other shows when they feel the need to distance themselves from those other shows as much as possible?

Though I also have to add, that I only said that Section 31 acted amateurish in DS9 when you put them under scrutiny. My memories of that show are fuzzy, but I think my hatred of them stems from the fact that they kept beating over our head how powerful and "necessary" they are supposed to be. Simply because the idea to deconstruct the Star Trek universe and the utopia of the Federation permeated every single writing decision in that show and the writers were in love with the idea that you can only get shit done by acting as ruthless as Tywin fucking Lannister.

Edited by Toth

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12 hours ago, red snow said:

I haven't read many of the culture books yet but the premise behind them does feel like a better realised federation. I recall in consider phlebas that the protagonists would essentially mirror that of the Klingons in this show.

I've always assumed that Banks was thinking at least partially of The Federation when he developed The Culture, although he may have been taking inspiration from other SF series as well.

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I've seen speculation which, if true, would be considered a very major spoiler...

 

They've stated that the Mirror universe will be featured. But rather than there being an episode that deals with the mirror universe, the entire show is set in it. That would explain a lot of the inconsistencies in technology and uniform etc. And when the Klingons say "We come in peace" is a lie, that's very true. The Federation come to subjugate, not to happily coexist.

I think that idea works better if the anthology thing was still happening and it was just one season set in the mirror universe, rather than the entire ongoing show. But it's definitely possible

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14 minutes ago, AndrewJ said:

I've seen speculation which, if true, would be considered a very major spoiler...

 

 

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They've stated that the Mirror universe will be featured. But rather than there being an episode that deals with the mirror universe, the entire show is set in it. That would explain a lot of the inconsistencies in technology and uniform etc. And when the Klingons say "We come in peace" is a lie, that's very true. The Federation come to subjugate, not to happily coexist.

I think that idea works better if the anthology thing was still happening and it was just one season set in the mirror universe, rather than the entire ongoing show. But it's definitely possible

 

 

Terran Empire. It's called the Terran Empire in the Mirror Universe. Plus, I think fans on the whole would be pretty pissed if the first Star Trek series in 10 years was an entirely Mirror based one. And, casual fans wouldn't give a shit or know what it was. And, the different technologies and uniform are just as incongruous to what we saw in 'Mirror, Mirror' as they are to the rest of TOS.

It seems odd that they would have a mirror universe episode, I'm thinking maybe the transportation device that they're working on propels them to a parallel universe and it's a bit weird for a while, but it being the mirror universe will be a subtle nod that new fans wouldn't pick up on? Dunno.

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26 minutes ago, AndrewJ said:

I've seen speculation which, if true, would be considered a very major spoiler...

 

 

  Hide contents

 

They've stated that the Mirror universe will be featured. But rather than there being an episode that deals with the mirror universe, the entire show is set in it. That would explain a lot of the inconsistencies in technology and uniform etc. And when the Klingons say "We come in peace" is a lie, that's very true. The Federation come to subjugate, not to happily coexist.

I think that idea works better if the anthology thing was still happening and it was just one season set in the mirror universe, rather than the entire ongoing show. But it's definitely possible

 

 

what would be even funnier would be if the crew of the discovery get to the mirrorverse and make it "evil". Although I heard "enterprise" had mirror universe episodes so probably not.It's maybe hunky dory until the discovery crew finds a way there.

Plus no-one has a goatee here

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17 hours ago, AndrewJ said:

I've seen speculation which, if true, would be considered a very major spoiler...

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

They've stated that the Mirror universe will be featured. But rather than there being an episode that deals with the mirror universe, the entire show is set in it. That would explain a lot of the inconsistencies in technology and uniform etc. And when the Klingons say "We come in peace" is a lie, that's very true. The Federation come to subjugate, not to happily coexist.

I think that idea works better if the anthology thing was still happening and it was just one season set in the mirror universe, rather than the entire ongoing show. But it's definitely possible

 

 

That would be absolutely amazing.

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what would be even funnier would be if the crew of the discovery get to the mirrorverse and make it "evil". Although I heard "enterprise" had mirror universe episodes so probably not.It's maybe hunky dory until the discovery crew finds a way there.

 

The break point between the timelines seems to have been back in Roman times, and Enterprise has already established the Terran Empire (with Vulcan slaves) as a really nasty bunch of people to hang out with.

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Well that was a thoroghly mediocore episode. It wasn't bad, but I still found parts of it so unTrek that it really took me out of it. Still loving the way they are writing the Klingons, but my god does my heart hurt every time one of them turns so you can see them in profile. That elongated skull and how flat their ridges make their faces look makes me kind of mad. Why would you change such an iconic creature design like that, it just looks bad.

 

I will say, I like Lorca, I find him to be an interesting character, and his outlook is basically every non barbarian character I play in D&D, gotta love Lawful Evil.

Edited by GrimTuesday

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Interestingly enough, I'm beginning to watch Discovery the same way I watch Game of Thrones: By taking notes of all the thoughts that cross my mind while I'm at it. I now have watched episodes 3 and 4... and... wow, that was a downwards dive. During the pilot episodes positive thoughts in the vein of "well, it could be much worse" were pretty much evening out everything about the godawful 'clingons' and the haphazard projection of both alt-right slogans and Islamic terrorism onto a faction whose established feudal honor-culture grossly contradicts both concepts. Still, even with all my complaints my first impression was that it was... okay... mostly because the trailers made me fear a much worse way in which Burnham's actions affected the war (they never did) and how the narrative would glorify her for it (so far only Captain Sinister did).

Okay... so Discovery could have been fine. But then... really, it's Alex Kurtzman's "Nothing makes sense, continuity is for pussies, I just throw words and conflicts at you and hope you won't notice" style of writing at it's work. With this, I just copy my notes right here. Sorry for the kind of stream of conscience-way of presentation, but this is what my impression of those first 'real' Discovery episodes are:

Episode 3

Nothing in the opener makes sense. Why is Starfleet suddenly using Borg species classifications, why did they have to fly through that nebula if it would eat their power supply like this (especially when the Nebula ends literally 4 meters above them) and why the hell went the pilot out to die?

Opening. Oh right, it’s because Kurtzman wrote this episode! Figures.

First mutineer or “first” mutineer, as in “the most infamous one”? I sincerely hope the latter.

That whole fake tension irritates the hell out of me.

That map of the war in the Captain’s quarters looks just like the one in Axanar. This looks really cool! Too bad I can’t see shit because EVERYTHING IS SO BLOODY DARK AND SINISTER!

Cringe-humor?

What’s happened with calling a Commander, Commander?

What? Is Saru blaming Burnham for getting Georgiou killed on a SUICIDE MISSION? The hell is wrong with the writing? Oh, Kurtzman... Though it also kinda supports my theory that there was heavy rewriting in the pilot thanks to the Fuller-shafting, so that would explain the heavy disconnect of how everyone is reacting to Burnham and what her actual actions actually amounted to in reality.

Science officer boss who doesn't like you for getting assigned to his division? Interestingly enough, I kinda like him, given how fast they went out of their way to humanize him. So far he is the only one on the ship I like. And yes, that includes Saru, who turned inexplicably into an asshole for no logical reason.

The holographic consoles are from the 25th century Enterprise F, imao...

Those breath scanners look really stupid...

... and Burnham immediately proves my point by tricking it with a hypospray, seriously? WHY DID THEY INSTALL THOSE IN THE FIRST PLACE?!?

Those sinister looking jet-black shuttles, damn it, where is my fucking Trek?

This looks nothing like a Bath’leth... how do they come to the conclusion “Klingons? Oh right, “Clingons”.
What does a sudden shift to sci-fi-horror need? More cringe-humor followed up by a messy and pointless death. God damn it, the Orville is more fun than this...

Why has Burnham to stand in this weird chamber for the light show? Just because it is sinister and threatening? Oh yes, that’s the indeed the only reason...

If they connect that technology with the Iconian gateway, I can see it work. But thing is, Iconian Gateways are immense power-hogs. How anyone is supposed to jump around like this on fucking space spores is beyond me and it really breaks any sense of proportion.

So they killed the other prisoners? Figures. Fucking Section 31.

Now right at the end Alice in Wonderland comes up? Is that reverse foreshadowing?

End verdict: I like the science guy and I especially liked his rant in the shuttle. What I didn't like was how his boyfriend managed to get both buried and hidden in the same episode. Why killing him so gruesomely when you barely give Science guy any room to express his grief? And why the hell is he only referred to as "a friend" when the framing clearly makes him out as his partner? What the fuck is so difficult in calling him boyfriend? You are writing Star Trek goddamn it! You have no problem sticking alt-right idiologies onto Klingons without a shred of logic, but you are still afraid of hurting some redneck's feelings by portraying gay people as a thing? SHAME ON YOU!

 

Episode 4

 

Surprisingly decent first ten minutes. I can even see shit! Never thought that would be ever worth pointing out. Though Saru’s interactions with Burnham still worry me.

Okay, here we go... Klingons are cannibals now? What?!? Now they aren’t even trying anymore, are they?

Wait, wait, wait. The Council thought T’Kuvma important enough to wage war against the Federation, but in six months they left his ship stranded and his crew starving? Are you fucking kidding me?!?

40 percent of the Federation’s Dilithium on a single planet? They are just making up absurdly high numbers again, aren’t they? Kinda reminds me of the 47 Klingon ships guarding freaking Rura Penthe in the Abramsverse...

Why not make a series of short jumps then? Reminds me of the main problem with the quantum slipstream drive of Voyager (again, one that becomes widespread in the 25th century...)

Oh my god, the Discovery’s dish is a Stargate! Chevron seven locked!

Science officer guy is crying after butting heads with Captain Sinister? Seriously?

Letting that thing out was seriously the stupidest thing I have seen so far in this show and this show already contained a lot of stupidly idiotic decision. How exactly did grim security chief thought this would end?

By the way, why the fuck is she so fixated on its claws? Was the idea not to find out why its armor shrugs off phaser blasts? Given that even the practical looking Klingon armor of past shows was never able to be as sturdy, nevermind the 40k chaos follower bullshit the Clingons are wearing, I don’t see much of a point why its claws are supposed to be so interesting.

Wait, she’s already dead? The fuck? Somewhere Denise Crosby must be laughing her ass off.

Romantic scene between the frog Clingons. Bonding over who is the craziest religious fundamentalist. I’m facepalming at the awkwardness and the stupid untertitled joke.

Well, given that Saru’s inexplicable hostility showcased the writer’s inability to keep any kind of continuity straight, even their own, I don’t even care in any way that Burnham used him as a canary bird. There was no way she could befriend him against the writers’ wishes.

Okay, that whole bonding scene with the creature was nice and made it feel remotely like Trek, if the entire premise wouldn’t be so stupid.

You are all ugly, Kol. Don’t be ridiculous.

That was... pretty convenient that they knew where to shoot even before they arrived. And... was there not something about shields having to be lowered for the ‘spore drive’? (god how stupid it sounds even when writing it down)

Am I the only one rooting in this battle scene for the Clingons to blow up this ugly excuse of a Federation ship?

How could they destroy the Klingons by dropping bombs without eradicating the city beneath? And they can’t tell me those were all the Klingon vessels at once...

Ugh, it’s the Equinox all over again...

I so knew that it would be the stupid telescope again. But I don’t care, that was a powerful scene for once.

 

Edited by Toth

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Still enjoying it a great deal, but it's on shaky ground with its morals here. It feels like they could pull it back if it turns out Starfleet are like "wait, Lorca's been doing what?!?", and he's a rogue section 31 captain who doesn't have the authorisation to do any of this. From his conversation with the admiral, it's possible he hasn't told them about how he's doing any of this and just said that the spore drive will work, leave it with him. But what troubles me is how Michael is the only one who looks concerned at the treatment of this creature. There were other officers there, including Stamets, who didn't seem to bat an eyelid at subjecting 'ripper' to obvious discomfort for their own ends. I'm not buying this 'it's ten years before, maybe they haven't become as ethical as TOS yet' cos there's no way Archer would have signed off on this. Or any of his crew. Inevitably, the next episode will feature this debate when Michael raises her concerns with the captain and won't win the argument. I just really hope Starfleet are shocked when they find out and strip him of rank.

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I just don't understand why everyone was working so hard to replicate the Glen's method of spore travel when it resulted in the horrible deaths of that ship's entire crew. 

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Episode 4 was a bit weak for me. I really enjoyed the replicator making Burnham's uniform but that was about it. The amount of stupid things is starting to grate on me now and this episode reminding me of a few things I let slip in episode 3.

Mainly the spore thing is utterly riduclous. They may as well have said "there's a network of unicorns connected butt to horn, across the entire Galaxy - therefore instantaneous travel is possible as long as it's via a strand of unicorns". I was going to let it slide but then they had to double down on it by claiming a mutated/alien that acts as a supercomputer for planning spore-based intergalactic travel. They didn't even bother telling us why the tardigrade would do this or what use it would be to it to do so?

But then there was the whole scenario of the unguarded dilithium crystal mine that had a third of starfleets fuel reserves. Surely this would be better guarded if it was of such strategic importance? I don't blame the Klingons for trying to grab it - it makes perfect strategic sense. This in turn reminded me of the ridiculous "breath ID" security system. I don't have a problem with "breath ID" - I do have a problem with there only been one level of security though. I work in a hospital environment and I need a pass card AND a keycode. I'd have thought black ops starfleet weapons would require "breath ID" and at least a pin code to get in.

Then there was the split narrative with the klingons and already I couldn't care less. Albino Klingon is a bit pathetic - if he can't get his acolytes to stick with him it's probably because they were utterly sick of starving to death for a few months on a crippled ship. I know he's supposed to be some kind of apostle/prophet character but usually these types of persona have a lot of charisma. So far this klingon appears to be clueless, naive and generally a bit pathetic. The female klingon shows more promise with her open plan of using him as a smokescreen for her own machinations.

There hasn't been anything too bad in the show yet but if the accumulation of iffy story decisions are anything to go by this is going to be much more in the style of "dumb entertainment" than clever SF. Which is fine, it just means I lower my expectations considerably.

EDIT: Oh and I completely forgot about the utterly stupid death of a character in the episode. It was kind of hilarious in its own way. Hopefully it will be a tongue in cheek gag about redshirts where they actually develop them a little before killing them off. Thank god there was no saving that character though after those idiotic choices!

Edited by red snow

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I really liked episode 3. Episode 4 was much weaker.

I don't mind them changing the Klingons' looks or even culture, and yet I'm not on board with what they're doing. Thse Klingons don't look alien enough... Or maybe too much, I dunno. There's just something really off about them. And why do they never talk of honor? Was it that hard to make them honorable warriors?

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I really enjoyed last night but I think Saru is kind of a dick and

hearing the word fuck on Star Trek was kind of weird for me. Not necessarily in a bad way but it took me by surprise. I hope it's not a regular thing.  


 

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1 hour ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

I really enjoyed last night but I think Saru is kind of a dick and

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hearing the word fuck on Star Trek was kind of weird for me. Not necessarily in a bad way but it took me by surprise. I hope it's not a regular thing.  


 

Agreed. Very strange!

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2 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I really liked episode 3. Episode 4 was much weaker.

I don't mind them changing the Klingons' looks or even culture, and yet I'm not on board with what they're doing. Thse Klingons don't look alien enough... Or maybe too much, I dunno. There's just something really off about them. And why do they never talk of honor? Was it that hard to make them honorable warriors?

Yeah, they really have thrown out a lot of what made Klingons Klingon, both physically and culturally They speak little to nothing of Khaless, in fact they talk more about T'Kuvma the Completely Forgettable (that feels a more apt title), they don't drink bloodwine, or eat gagh and they don't tell tales of honor and glory in battle. It is almost entirely unrecognizable in how different they are from every Klingon we have ever seen.

I still find the elongated skulls to be the most egregious physical change in the Klingons of Discovery.

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9 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

Yeah, they really have thrown out a lot of what made Klingons Klingon, both physically and culturally They speak little to nothing of Khaless, in fact they talk more about T'Kuvma the Completely Forgettable (that feels a more apt title), they don't drink bloodwine, or eat gagh and they don't tell tales of honor and glory in battle. It is almost entirely unrecognizable in how different they are from every Klingon we have ever seen.

I still find the elongated skulls to be the most egregious physical change in the Klingons of Discovery.

 I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they are a sup-group of Klingons who have temporarily seized power. 

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The mentioned Kahless quite a bit in the two-hour pilot and a couple of weeks back.

This episode was solid. It was good to get rid of the tardigrade (well-played or not, it was kind of ridiculous) and they got some good action sequences going. Also a very good performance by Rain Wilson as Harry Mudd, even if I didn't buy this was the same character who'd turn into an avuncular buffoon ten years later. Nice nod to continuity, naming Robert April, Jonathan Archer and Christopher Pike as three of Starfleet's greatest captains.

The ending was also really good. A nod to the Mirror Universe, I'm presuming.

Also, wasn't it a bit blindingly obvious that:

New castmember dude is a Klingon spy?

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16 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The mentioned Kahless quite a bit in the two-hour pilot and a couple of weeks back.

This episode was solid. It was good to get rid of the tardigrade (well-played or not, it was kind of ridiculous) and they got some good action sequences going. Also a very good performance by Rain Wilson as Harry Mudd, even if I didn't buy this was the same character who'd turn into an avuncular buffoon ten years later. Nice nod to continuity, naming Robert April, Jonathan Archer and Christopher Pike as three of Starfleet's greatest captains.

The ending was also really good. A nod to the Mirror Universe, I'm presuming.

Also, wasn't it a bit blindingly obvious that:

 

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New castmember dude is a Klingon spy?

 

human turncoat or bonafide Klingon?


 

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