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Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

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On ‎16‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:51 PM, Lord Varys said:

If there had been some conspiracy of powerful people trying to murder them it Aegon and his sister-wives wouldn't have had a chance. Especially if we assume the Citadel was behind it. Aegon was touring the Realm a lot. It would have been more than easy to plant some agents in some inn or small castle he would visit and arrange his death there.

And that is a very strong sign that nobody actually banded together to eradicate the Targaryen dynasty. Not in the beginning, and not later, when it would have been very easy.

So you don t believe in a citadel/sept conspiracy?

And you make it sound like a travelling king is easy to kill. He probably traveled with loyal men and his dragon. In addition, he had the oaths of the lords he conquered...

The citadel's plan was to recover the kingdoms when he died. Or 4 revolts at the same time don t seem strange to you? A lot of what happened after aegon's death is very suspicious!

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Very crackpot. I do think there was an anti-Targ faction at the Citadel in the last decades, and perhaps an anti-dragon faction a century and a half ago, but I see no general Hightower or Citadel plot to destroy the Targs in Aegon's time or during the Dance. Like pretty much everyone else, they mostly wanted go get their piece, and benefit from the Targaryens. They might pick sides between Targaryens or Targaryen descendants, but I don't see actively trying to get rid of the Targs as a goal of either the Hightowers or Citadel.

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25 minutes ago, divica said:

So you don t believe in a citadel/sept conspiracy?

Not in the way you put it forth. I think smart men in the Citadel opened their eyes and realized the madness of dragon warfare during the Dance. When Grand Maester Munkun came to KL he went there with an agenda - to ensure that something like Tumbleton doesn't happen ever again.

Anything else is pretty much crackpot. It could be that the Citadel also had a hand in the Storming of the Dragonpit - but considering that this was in the second half of the Dance they might already have realized that those beasts were insanely dangerous if the Targaryens were fighting each other.

25 minutes ago, divica said:

And you make it sound like a travelling king is easy to kill. He probably traveled with loyal men and his dragon. In addition, he had the oaths of the lords he conquered...

That doesn't protect you from plotters. Aegon often made camp in common inns and the like. All you need to do there is to get some agents with poison in the kitchen of such inns. That shouldn't be hard at all.

25 minutes ago, divica said:

The citadel's plan was to recover the kingdoms when he died. Or 4 revolts at the same time don t seem strange to you? A lot of what happened after aegon's death is very suspicious!

The rebellions after Aegon's death are hardly surprising. The Targaryen rule wasn't fully established yet. Aegon had ruled only 37 years, not 67. You don't need conspiracy theories to explain this.

And the Hightowers had no interest whatsoever in killing either the dragons or the Targaryens. They wanted to marry them and become dragonriders themselves.

20 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Very crackpot. I do think there was an anti-Targ faction at the Citadel in the last decades, and perhaps an anti-dragon faction a century and a half ago, but I see no general Hightower or Citadel plot to destroy the Targs in Aegon's time or during the Dance. Like pretty much everyone else, they mostly wanted go get their piece, and benefit from the Targaryens. They might pick sides between Targaryens or Targaryen descendants, but I don't see actively trying to get rid of the Targs as a goal of either the Hightowers or Citadel.

I'm pretty sure the anti-magic/anti-dragon faction at the Citadel was happy with the death of the dragons. They knew the chances that the dragons would ever return were pretty small. And if they had really deep-seated issue with the 'magical blood' of the Targaryens Robert should have been as much of an issue for them as Aerys II and his brood. Betha Blackwood, Dyanna Dayne, and Mariah Martell didn't dilute the blood enough, did it?

Why on earth should the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen not have mad dragon dreams or decide it was his duty/mission to hatch ancient dragon eggs? If there is magic to all that the people having the blood cannot really help themselves, can they?

And Stannis is pretty much a victim of this madness already. Melisandre thinks he is the savior of mankind because he is the great-grandson of Aegon V and the Lord of Dragonstone, basically.

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21 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Very crackpot. I do think there was an anti-Targ faction at the Citadel in the last decades, and perhaps an anti-dragon faction a century and a half ago, but I see no general Hightower or Citadel plot to destroy the Targs in Aegon's time or during the Dance. Like pretty much everyone else, they mostly wanted go get their piece, and benefit from the Targaryens. They might pick sides between Targaryens or Targaryen descendants, but I don't see actively trying to get rid of the Targs as a goal of either the Hightowers or Citadel.

I was seing the greenhand vídeo about the life of maegor last night, so I might be biased because these type of videos aren t always true...

But after Aegon died basically some people in some kingdoms  revolted all over westeros. We just ended a long reign and people liked aenis, so why would 4 revolts happen at the same time? And 30K dornishment revolted? How was that number even possible if the martells remained loyal?

Then, because aenis married his daughter to his son he was an abomination? Aegon could be married to his sisters, but aenis kids can t? They decided to revolt? And aenis even had to run away from KL when some poor fellows tried to kill him? It sounds like a lot of religious propaganda was spread pretty fast...

And then entered the maesters. Somehow aenis aged pretty fast while a maester was caring for him in dragonstone, however when Visenya took over his care, Aenys briefly improved? I concede that visenya maybe had more reason to kill him than a maester, but it all depends if the maesters belive that maegor has no chance of unifying the kingdom again. Don t Forget he was exiled, disrespected the faith, the smallfolk loved his brother (not him), that we are in a religious revolt so fighting a heretic is better for the faith than a loved man and by law he was not the heir! Maegor had everything against him!!!!

So after winning his trial of the seven the maesters enter again! He was in a coma for 28 days and awakened after the maester stoped taking care of him? It is very strange. I think we must say that the maester wanted him out of the way (so that the faith could prepare their forces for a new attack) but at the same time didn t dare to kill him... And whatever we say here is speculation, but if maegor died wouldn t visenya blame the faith, take her dragon and go burning old town? 

So after a series of battles against the fate maegor won and the high septon that wouldn t surrender died misteriously (yeah the maesters aren t suspected of murdering him...). And a year later, after having saved the targs and secured their power by cripling the faith there is a new revolt! And for our great surprise there are secret comunications between maegors rival and the great houses of the realm!? OH!  how can this be? who conducts comunications between  the realms? certainly it isn t the maesters that supported the faith and were defeated by maegor a year earlier... (a bit pushed I know, but maegor shoud be a targ hero... It is strange that Aegon thinks of fighting him in a much smaller dragon...)

 

Then, after all the defeats started the rumours about maegor's absurd cruelty. Do you think that the man that risked his life in a trial of the seven would start burning smallfolk? It is true that people change with age, but the timing of his cruelties is also suspect.

Then we find tyanna's involvement in the deformed and premature babies. Strangely she appeared in maegor's life after he was exiled because he disrespected the faith and decided to ruin his chances of having a heir his whole life... nothing suspicious here...

And finally, he was abandoned by everybody when Jaehaerys decided to be king and suffered a misterious death...

Now  Jaehaerys was supported by the faith and could marry his sister. Ok, the fatih started a rebellion because his father married his sister, but now it is ok? 

 

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not in the way you put it forth. I think smart men in the Citadel opened their eyes and realized the madness of dragon warfare during the Dance. When Grand Maester Munkun came to KL he went there with an agenda - to ensure that something like Tumbleton doesn't happen ever again.

Anything else is pretty much crackpot. It could be that the Citadel also had a hand in the Storming of the Dragonpit - but considering that this was in the second half of the Dance they might already have realized that those beasts were insanely dangerous if the Targaryens were fighting each other.

We have the faith rebellion in aenis reign. For me the conspiracy started there. The faith was clear about their hate for the targs while the maesters were conspiring secretly.

In my post above I wrote several strange things that happened. Some might be pushed, but others are very strange! 

After this the maesters became smarter and started acting behind the scenes. And while I agree that otto hightower wanted the IT several weird things happened that led to the dance of dragons. otherwise he didn t have a chance...

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The rebellions after Aegon's death are hardly surprising. The Targaryen rule wasn't fully established yet. Aegon had ruled only 37 years, not 67. You don't need conspiracy theories to explain this.

I'm pretty sure the anti-magic/anti-dragon faction at the Citadel was happy with the death of the dragons. They knew the chances that the dragons would ever return were pretty small. And if they had really deep-seated issue with the 'magical blood' of the Targaryens Robert should have been as much of an issue for them as Aerys II and his brood. Betha Blackwood, Dyanna Dayne, and Mariah Martell didn't dilute the blood enough, did it?

Why on earth should the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen not have mad dragon dreams or decide it was his duty/mission to hatch ancient dragon eggs? If there is magic to all that the people having the blood cannot really help themselves, can they?

And Stannis is pretty much a victim of this madness already. Melisandre thinks he is the savior of mankind because he is the great-grandson of Aegon V and the Lord of Dragonstone, basically.

37 years is a lot of time in medieval times!

And I don t think the problema of the citadel/sept after the dance was the magic blood of the targs. It was their costumes, beliefs and obecessions with dragons and fires... Either educated or pious men would want them gone... And it only took so much time because there were targs like jaehaerys that were trying to adapt the targs to westeros... So if they could be colonized like the first men why fight them? However, in aerys and rhaegar's time they must have decided to get rid of the targs once and for all.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

37 years is a lot of time in medieval times!

This is no real world. This is We have been kings since 8000 years-Westeros.

And I can not see anything suspicious about the rebellions at the beginning of Aenys's reign. The Conqueror had died, and if you want to rebell successfully, you do not wait until the new king gets everything under controll. You have to strike immediately.

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5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

This is no real world. This is We have been kings since 8000 years-Westeros.

And I can not see anything suspicious about the rebellions at the beginning of Aenys's reign. The Conqueror had died, and if you want to rebell successfully, you do not wait until the new king gets everything under controll. You have to strike immediately.

But it wasn t the lords who rebeled. It was people!

A bandit outlaw known as  Red Harren claimed to be a grandson of Harren the black

On the Iron Iands, a man claiming to be the priest-kingLodos began to gather followers

Lord Ronnel Arryn was taken captive by his own brother, jonnos arryn

The Vulture King was a dornish outlaw who gathered thousands of followers. Hell how does a dornish outlaw gather 30K dornish when the martells stayed loyal to the crown... 

What is the probability that 4 diferente people rebel at the same time and gather thousands of people to their causes? And then the lords of the realm are the ones that go and fight them? The people are revolting against their lords!? This is super fishy!!!

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On 10/13/2017 at 2:31 PM, The Twinslayer said:

I don't find this convincing at all.  Jorah -- no great legal scholar -- is not suggesting to Dany that polygamy would be legal in Westeros.  He is saying that if she is going to conquer Westerns with three dragons, like Aegon the Conqueror did, she can rewrite the rules, the way Aegon the Conqueror did.  And, he is trying to talk her into giving him a dragon and going to bed with him.  

The more relevant conversation is the one Dany has with the Green Grace, where Dany suggests she might marry Hizdahr pursuant to Westerosi rites and the Green Grace says that a marriage that does not comply with Meereenese customs would make Dany a concubine and her children bastards.  The obvious inference is that a child born in Westeros of a marriage falling outside Westerosi norms would also be considered a bastard.

As I indicated above, I am a proponent of the theory that Jaehaerys formally outlawed polygamy when he promulgated the uniform code of laws as a way to appease the Faith because he needed to maintain the legality of his incestuous marriage but did not have any use for polygamy.  That is the most logical explanation for the fact that no Targaryen king after Maegor attempted to take a second wife.  

Perhaps the Green Grace is being dishonest: since it is the opposite of the Islamic ruling on other people's marriages. Given that Slaver's Bay is the equivalent of the Barbary States of North Africa  (Although perhaps I am taking the analogy to far, religiously the Ghiscari seem to be religiously closer to the Carthaginians, however pagans are usually pretty tolerant of their differences...

https://islamqa.info/en/169528

Interestingly, since we are discussing Targaeryn incest, this Islamic website has a very interesting discussion of Magian marriages

He replied: With regard to these people who had intercourse when they were still disbelievers, if they believed that this intercourse occurred in the context of a marriage contract that they thought was valid, even though it is invalid according to sharee‘ah, the marriage contract is valid and the children belong to that man. For example, when he was still a disbeliever, a man proposed to a woman that he should be her husband and she agreed, and they thought that this was a marriage contract, then the man and woman became Muslim. We say: Your marriage is still valid and there is no need to repeat the marriage contract, and any children that you had are your children, unless the wife is not permissible for the husband in Islam. An example of that is if he was a Magian and married his sister, as the Magians regard it as permissible to marry mahrams (close relatives). If he married his sister when he was a disbeliever, then he became Muslim and she became Muslim, they must be separated because the woman is not permissible for the man. With regard to the group of people you mention we say: If they believe that what they did of having relationships with these women was a marriage, then it is not zina and the children belong to them. But if you believed that it was zina and you attributed these children to yourself when you were still a disbeliever -- i.e., the zaani said: These are my children -- then they are his children, so long as there is no one to dispute with him on this issue. But if they did not attribute these children to themselves, then they are not their children. 

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On 3.1.2018 at 5:59 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'm pretty sure the anti-magic/anti-dragon faction at the Citadel was happy with the death of the dragons. They knew the chances that the dragons would ever return were pretty small. And if they had really deep-seated issue with the 'magical blood' of the Targaryens Robert should have been as much of an issue for them as Aerys II and his brood. Betha Blackwood, Dyanna Dayne, and Mariah Martell didn't dilute the blood enough, did it?

Why on earth should the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen not have mad dragon dreams or decide it was his duty/mission to hatch ancient dragon eggs? If there is magic to all that the people having the blood cannot really help themselves, can they?

And Stannis is pretty much a victim of this madness already. Melisandre thinks he is the savior of mankind because he is the great-grandson of Aegon V and the Lord of Dragonstone, basically.

That's a good point about Stannis. Never thought about it in that way before. 

About Robert: If there is a citadel conspiracy at work, having Grandmaester Pycelle making sure that the Lannisters came out on top of Robert's Rebellion would have been a smart move. He also covered for Cersei's cuckolding Robert. Whether intentional or not, Pycelle was instrumental in making sure that the IT went to kings without Targaryen blood. 

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On 11/16/2017 at 4:12 AM, Pukisbaisals said:

I don't think Tyanna acted driven by personal motifs.

 

Not necessarily. Maybe only Targs or even maybe only Rhaena knew about this. Presence of Maegor's descendant cold renew tension between Targs and Faith, so they possibly wanted to find silent solution.

 

Why so? In background of political situation Targaryen children were in utmost danger.

Targaryens had number of very powerful enemies and rivals. So powerful, that surviving of Targaryen clan for three centuries looks like miracle. They couldn't challenge Targs in open war while Targs had dragons. Then they - sooner or later - came to simple conclusion - they need to exterminate the dragonriders, or at least reduce their number as much as possible.

And they did that by various means. Setting Targs against each other (Dance of Dragons), organizing assassinations which looked as mishaps (children of Jahaerys), involving them in fruitless marriages (like Rhaenyra and gay Laenor).

But I think simplest and probably least expensive way was to kill them in the womb or in infancy.

Queens were attended by handmaidens, servants and ladies in waiting, so there were plenty of possibilities to infiltrate hostile agents.

 

 

The sheer numbers of people involved in such a conspiracy would render it impossible.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a19150/most-conspiracy-theories-are-mathematically-impossible/

And it would be even harder to run such a conspiracy for thousands of years.

I think we need to accept that a side affect of incest is poor health, reduced fertility etc.

Occam's Razor rather 'elaborate conspiracy of Septon's and Maesters'

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After finally getting around to reading The Sons of the Dragon, I can say that I liked it, but I also think it is a step down in quality from The Rogue Prince and The Princess and the Queen. My biggest disappointment was that we didn't get to learn more about Maegor's six wives as individuals.With the exception of Tyanna, I finished the story feeling like I knew very little about any of them.

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Is it possible that Maegor was conceived by blood magic in a sense that Visenya did a ritual on herself or her body and when Aegon and her had sex a child was born. This was likely how Maegor  was born? Not just being created in some test tube? Maybe Aegon agreed to it, we don't know but I highly doubt Aegon was shooting blanks, Aegon in terms of personally was very to himself. He likely saw Rhaenys as someone he actually loved or not loved but " Liked" and Visenya was to him just big sister I suppose.   

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57 minutes ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Is it possible that Maegor was conceived by blood magic in a sense that Visenya did a ritual on herself or her body and when Aegon and her had sex a child was born. This was likely how Maegor  was born? Not just being created in some test tube? Maybe Aegon agreed to it, we don't know but I highly doubt Aegon was shooting blanks, Aegon in terms of personally was very to himself. He likely saw Rhaenys as someone he actually loved or not loved but " Liked" and Visenya was to him just big sister I suppose.   

The idea I have is that Maegor is just a male clone of Visenya, conceived via black magic without Aegon's semen playing into it.

George used the concept of a male clone of a female (freak) 'mother' in 'The Nightflyers' to great effect. It is not very likely we'll ever get that explanation within any of the stories and books, but it is a very neat theory.

It is heavily implied that Maegor was only conceived as a spare when it looked like Prince Aenys would not live.

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On 2/2/2018 at 7:38 AM, Lord Varys said:

The idea I have is that Maegor is just a male clone of Visenya, conceived via black magic without Aegon's semen playing into it.

George used the concept of a male clone of a female (freak) 'mother' in 'The Nightflyers' to great effect. It is not very likely we'll ever get that explanation within any of the stories and books, but it is a very neat theory.

It is heavily implied that Maegor was only conceived as a spare when it looked like Prince Aenys would not live.

Ah yes, this is true as well. I find it rather interesting that every child Maegor had was described as looking almost like human/dragon hybrids though this seems to be very much a Targaryen thing or likely a Valyrian feature. You subscribe to the theory that Maegor was brought back to life after his battle with the warrior sons? So Maegor, already showing his mothers tendencies, became even worst? 

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2 hours ago, King Jon Targaryen I said:

Ah yes, this is true as well. I find it rather interesting that every child Maegor had was described as looking almost like human/dragon hybrids though this seems to be very much a Targaryen thing or likely a Valyrian feature. You subscribe to the theory that Maegor was brought back to life after his battle with the warrior sons? So Maegor, already showing his mothers tendencies, became even worst? 

I reserve judgment on that one. Could be that Maegor died, could be that he was just woken from his coma/healed by magic. I find the latter a tidbit more likely because it would have been very difficult for Visenya, etc. to actually keep his death and resurrection a secret. And it seems to be pretty much confirmed that the king still breathed at the end of the Trial of Seven.

We also see no change in Maegor after the head injury. He was already sadistic and cruel prior to that, lacking only the power indulge in his fantasies and desires to the point he later could as king.

Even if there was a change there - Maegor becoming even less diplomatic and more ruthless - then this could easily enough be explained by his near death experience. We don't have to fantasize about him dying and returning from death. It is enough that he realized that he was mortal, too, and thus even less willing to take any chances when dealing with enemies.

If you want to talk symbolism then it is quite likely that Maegor was a freak from the start - he was created as a champion for House Targaryen but became the dynasty's greatest enemy, doing even more to undo his mother's (and 'father's' and aunt's) work than anybody else. He nearly wiped out the Targaryens in the main line, and if he had gotten to Jaehaerys, too, everything would have been lost.

There is a price shield attached to magic. Visenya got a strong son, alright, but he was a sterile freak, unable to continue the line and a mortal threat to his nephews and nieces.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I reserve judgment on that one. Could be that Maegor died, could be that he was just woken from his coma/healed by magic. I find the latter a tidbit more likely because it would have been very difficult for Visenya, etc. to actually keep his death and resurrection a secret. And it seems to be pretty much confirmed that the king still breathed at the end of the Trial of Seven.

We also see no change in Maegor after the head injury. He was already sadistic and cruel prior to that, lacking only the power indulge in his fantasies and desires to the point he later could as king.

Even if there was a change there - Maegor becoming even less diplomatic and more ruthless - then this could easily enough be explained by his near death experience. We don't have to fantasize about him dying and returning from death. It is enough that he realized that he was mortal, too, and thus even less willing to take any chances when dealing with enemies.

If you want to talk symbolism then it is quite likely that Maegor was a freak from the start - he was created as a champion for House Targaryen but became the dynasty's greatest enemy, doing even more to undo his mother's (and 'father's' and aunt's) work than anybody else. He nearly wiped out the Targaryens in the main line, and if he had gotten to Jaehaerys, too, everything would have been lost.

There is a price shield attached to magic. Visenya got a strong son, alright, but he was a sterile freak, unable to continue the line and a mortal threat to his nephews and nieces.

Yeah, I can see that as a case. I can understand why Visenya wasn't too confident in her nephew/son Aenys I ability to protect the realm as I always assumed pragmatism with her. I always had a theory that Aegon I wasn't really a fan of violence. He did it when necessary but all and all he likely was a pacifist? Maybe Visenya was the more stern and enjoying of combat than Aegon. Yes he was a great warrior but I always leave that open that he likely wasn't a big fan of violence.  

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Do you think that Rhaella Targaryen (daughter of Aegon) could've been mother of Otto Hightower?

When we last heard of her she was at the Hightower and was saved by Lord Hightower. I believe that she could've married one of his heirs out of gratitude or maybe simply they fell in love and that was the reason why the Lord saved her. 

That also can explain why Ser Otto was a hand to Jaehaerys I and why his daughter married Viserys I.

Edited by Blooddragon

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