U.S. Politics: Are You Threadening Me Master Jedi?

[Jace, Extat]

24 minutes ago, Triskele said:

After Rosenstein and Mueller are fired the GOP and Trump will start to put it together that now the next thing they're threatened by are free and fair elections in November, so how will they start attacking those next?  

It is pretty eye opening isn't it? The amount of 'BOUT THE ECONOMIE!!!!!!!!!!" is truly horrific. "The trains ran on time" was a fucking joke!

It was a JOKE!

[The Marquis de Leech]

49 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

It goes deeper than that. When the Republican party went full-fascist about ten years ago people like Nancy Pelosi were in positions to strengthen our institutions and combat the reactionary elements of the R party in real time. Instead they allowed themselves to be dragged so far to the right in their quest to avoid controversy that Hard Line conservatives quickly came to look moderate when able to agree that the sky is blue and the government should probably stay open.

By submitting to the cowardly among the ranks Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid let the political atmosphere drown in toxins while quietly protesting that they weren't being treated fairly.

Dictatorships aren't unilaterally born. Complicity by apathy is required by enough to imbalance the equation.

Pelosi wasn't the problem. Reid was.

[Lord Lannister]

Lol, this thread has gone full tin foil.

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Pelosi wasn't the problem. Reid was.

Anyone who cowtowed to them is the problem. The Democratic party was the problem.

I've never really cared about Pelosi, but the more I look back at the piss poor management of all facets of the Obama years the more I become convinced she has to go.

She understands the issues, that's not the problem. The problem is that she is not a leader. She doesn't have it.

The ability to clearly articulate your beliefs and the resolve to induce others to execute on them is what it takes to be a leader. She flat out cannot communicate clearly, tonight was an exercise in that. Every word out of her mouth was intelligent but she lacks the tools to present the information in a decipherable context. Even the softest Cuomo underhands left her unable to explain adequately what R's are doing to this country.

And resolve? I don't know. She did fine during the shutdown whenever not on camera (again, great points and relevant analogues horrifically mishandled in presentation). I really don't know, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Her inability to clearly lay out the democratic position and goals is an automatic disqualification to be in a leadership role.

It's not a nice thing to say about someone, but that's the situation.

Now if she were running for President, I would vote for her. Not in the primary, but on the general ticket? Sure, she seems on top of shit from a technical standpoint. And when you're president it doesn't matter if people don't understand why you want them to do something, as long as they do it.

It's abundantly clear why Donnie wants things at any given moment. What's not clear is what he wants people to do about it.

Does any of that make sense?

What I'm getting at is that when you have to treat people as equals and get them to follow you on ideological tours, it's harder if at the end of the day you're equals and they have the power (responsibility!) not to listen to you all the time.

3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Lol, this thread has gone full tin foil.

Bro. Whether you think that there's an idiotic despot in power and the republic is collapsing or that a conspiratorial cult of upper echelon federal law enforcement executives rigged the 2016 election so incompetently that their woman LOST and now it is coming to light through the heroic actions of Devin Nunes.

Everything is Tin Foil at this point. Reality is tin foil.

We all float on tin foil.

[OldGimletEye]

On 1/29/2018 at 8:19 PM, Martell Spy said:

Donald Trump’s Presidency Is the Libertarian Moment

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/01/donald-trumps-presidency-is-the-libertarian-moment.html

 

Yeah, our high libertarian overlords, when push comes to shove, will always pick tax cuts over everything else, no matter how dreadful "everything else" is.

If this moment in time doesn't tell us, they have been full of shit when they talk about "freedom", nothing ever will.

Quote

The alliance between the Kochs and Trump exists not despite their libertarian ideology, but because of it.

Pinochet, move over. There is a new "libertarian's dictator" in town.

[Yukle]

4 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Reality is tin foil.

We all float on tin foil.

Most foil is made of aluminium these days, rather than tin. Checkmate, conspiracy theorists!

[kuenjato]

22 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Lol, this thread has gone full tin foil.

Yes. I venture to several websites, and this one, while often having the most insight and intellectual acumen on current issues, tends to dissolve into Chicken Little on a fairly regular basis. The crack about Nov 2000 is somewhat accurate--yes, this is worse, much worse than that. But the knives are out. The memo is already being compared to Riveria's Al Capone "scoop." Sean Hannity was just revealed to having received inside information from Wikileaks. Even if Mueller gets fired, the information gathered isn't just going up in smoke. 

It's discouraging to see the Republican party finally unmask itself, even though we've known they've been angling toward this for 20+ years, but all of this is pure frantic desperation. There's a reason the top guns in the GOP are starting to tap out. Even with full on obstruction, the gilded toliet is going to overflow and we're all going to see it in real-time.

[Jace, Extat]

Marcia Fudge should run for president of the goddamn universe!

[Jace, Extat]

Jesus, did anyone else see Luis Gutierrez actually dominate an interview!?! Where has that been?

[HoodedCrow]

Why doesn’t Poney Queen Jane run for office. Find out what a snap it is. Then complain about how the Dems can’t get their modest improvements through. The country is substantially Center right, and it is supposed to be run for the people and by the people. Then the left wing was manipulated into splitting the vote just enough, and Trump lied an incredible amount almost every time he opened his mouth. There are a lot of weak minded people who like alpha males no matter what they do, just like you can clearly see misogyny on this site, over and over.

[Shryke]

4 hours ago, Inigima said:

The news out of the House today, plus McCabe being forced out, is completely insane. Trump having no interest in the rule of law is one thing, but House Republicans are actively aiding and abetting it. We are fucked.

Democracy and the rule of law have little defence against a large portion of the public being ok with a lack of democracy, a lack of the rule of rule and abetting foreign interference.

The best option is to head this shit off at the pass, which would involve killing the right-wing press decades ago.

[JGP]

Oh wait, hold up right there Crow [already chuckling in anticipation] which 'alpha' males are you referring to, precisely?

[Jace, Extat]

Just now, HoodedCrow said:

Why doesn’t Poney Queen Jane run for office. Find out what a snap it is. Then complain about how the Dems can’t get their modest improvements through. The country is substantially Center right, and it is supposed to be run for the people and by the people. Then the left wing was manipulated into splitting the vote just enough, and Trump lied an incredible amount almost every time he opened his mouth. There are a lot of weak minded people who like alpha males no matter what they do, just like you can clearly see misogyny on this site, over and over.

Uh-oh! Did the Pony Queen strike a nerve?

Yeah. People be stupid and exposed to demagoguery.

It's the responsibility of their representatives to ensure that the will of the collective supersedes the demands of the disruptive few.

Our representatives failed us. All of them, we see the fruits of their inaction borne daily.

[Darth Richard II]

20 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Why doesn’t Poney Queen Jane run for office. Find out what a snap it is. Then complain about how the Dems can’t get their modest improvements through. The country is substantially Center right, and it is supposed to be run for the people and by the people. Then the left wing was manipulated into splitting the vote just enough, and Trump lied an incredible amount almost every time he opened his mouth. There are a lot of weak minded people who like alpha males no matter what they do, just like you can clearly see misogyny on this site, over and over.

What the fuck?

[Yukle]

15 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Why doesn’t Poney Queen Jane run for office. Find out what a snap it is. Then complain about how the Dems can’t get their modest improvements through. The country is substantially Center right, and it is supposed to be run for the people and by the people. Then the left wing was manipulated into splitting the vote just enough, and Trump lied an incredible amount almost every time he opened his mouth. There are a lot of weak minded people who like alpha males no matter what they do, just like you can clearly see misogyny on this site, over and over.

I disagree with this. @Pony Queen Jace isn't a hysterical fringe opinion, but part of the normal observations of what's happening to America, and to a lesser extent the world.

It has long been a theory of political sociology that all democratic institutions trend toward oligarchies given enough time. America is not a conservative country, as their slow embrace of progressive policies that generally lead the world shows. Rather, the progressives among them are common folk who are dis-empowered.

Take something as simple as voting.

Voting is on a Tuesday, and employers don't have to pay people for taking the day off to vote. Realistically, it must be a day off as poor communities rarely have enough voting booths and must line up for hours to vote. Voter ID laws are passed to further place barriers against those from disadvantaged communities. Ballot papers are hard to read and have poor typography designed to maximise confusion for those who don't read well or speak English as a first language. Disability access isn't mandated at all polling booths, either.

Voting rolls can be purged without notice - including that registered voters need not be notified that their names are no longer on the rolls until they turn up to vote.

And in the instance when votes are still overwhelming - as was the case in Virginia's state elections and Maine's medicaid expansions - these results mean nothing. Gerrymandering has robbed voters of the chance to make a difference while ballot measures are routinely ignored and vetoed by governors who have no desire to see the wishes of their people passed.

It's nothing to do with large masses of people being stupid, it's the fact that voting has been carefully crafted to ensure that only particular people will vote: the people who will stick with a party no matter what they do, for the sake of winning. It's not intelligence, it's tribalism.

[Shryke]

3 hours ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

It goes deeper than that. When the Republican party went full-fascist about ten years ago people like Nancy Pelosi were in positions to strengthen our institutions and combat the reactionary elements of the R party in real time. Instead they allowed themselves to be dragged so far to the right in their quest to avoid controversy that Hard Line conservatives quickly came to look moderate when able to agree that the sky is blue and the government should probably stay open.

By submitting to the cowardly among the ranks Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid let the political atmosphere drown in toxins while quietly protesting that they weren't being treated fairly.

Dictatorships aren't unilaterally born. Complicity by apathy is required by enough to imbalance the equation.

This is silly. The Democrats are not responsible for this shit. Their main problem is the same problem that afflicts the electorate at large and the media and the political class in DC especially, which is essentially why the Democrats have had limited options: there is a complete unwillingness to acknowledge that the right-wing in america has been steadily moving towards anti-democratic and authoritarian extremism for decades now.

The insane conservatives look "moderate" because they have been steadily taking over the party and the US political dialogue (the media, the people, the politicians, etc) lack the tools and the desire to call out one side as having fucking lost it, so they've been steadily normalizing the issue by always structuring it as "Democrats say X but Republicans say Y".

And the takeover has been happening entirely because of the primary process and how it empowers grassroots extremist elements and the way the GOP courted those elements for votes for years without any concern for the fact that the burgeoning conservative media sphere was the one giving the marching orders, not the party itself, and the conservative media is mostly interest in making money, which you do by spouting crazy shit and riling people up.

This is all then helped along and magnified by the shitty setup of the US political system, which empowers radical elements at multiple levels and is full of too many strange breakpoints and holes where the system simply hangs with no clear path out and so depends heavily upon good faith efforts by it's actors and unwritten and ultimately unenforceable rules of conduct.

So while the Democrats have long refused to admit that the GOP has gone insane and instead of making a move has decided to burn the whole place down, the options for doing anything about that are severely limited beyond perhaps deciding to burn the place down first instead. But the political atmosphere and goings on are not directly caused by the Democrats. They are stuck with no real good options. Because the ultimate problem remains that the public and the media and the political culture will not hold the GOP accountable for their actions, no matter how extreme and insane they get. And you can't protect a democracy from it's own voters easily, if at all.

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, Shryke said:

This is silly. The Democrats are not responsible for this shit. Their main problem is the same problem that afflicts the electorate at large and the media and the political class in DC especially, which is essentially why the Democrats have had limited options: there is a complete unwillingness to acknowledge that the right-wing in america has been steadily moving towards anti-democratic and authoritarian extremism for decades now.

The insane conservatives look "moderate" because they have been steadily taking over the party and the US political dialogue (the media, the people, the politicians, etc) lack the tools and the desire to call out one side as having fucking lost it, so they've been steadily normalizing the issue by always structuring it as "Democrats say X but Republicans say Y".

And the takeover has been happening entirely because of the primary process and how it empowers grassroots extremist elements and the way the GOP courted those elements for votes for years without any concern for the fact that the burgeoning conservative media sphere was the one giving the marching orders, not the party itself, and the conservative media is mostly interest in making money, which you do by spouting crazy shit and riling people up.

This is all then helped along and magnified by the shitty setup of the US political system, which empowers radical elements at multiple levels and is full of too many strange breakpoints and holes where the system simply hangs with no clear path out and so depends heavily upon good faith efforts by it's actors and unwritten and ultimately unenforceable rules of conduct.

So while the Democrats have long refused to admit that the GOP has gone insane and instead of making a move has decided to burn the whole place down, the options for doing anything about that are severely limited beyond perhaps deciding to burn the place down first instead. But the political atmosphere and goings on are not directly caused by the Democrats. They are stuck with no real good options. Because the ultimate problem remains that the public and the media and the political culture will not hold the GOP accountable for their actions, no matter how extreme and insane they get. And you can't protect a democracy from it's own voters easily, if at all.

But at the end of the day it was their jobs to protect the Republic from itself. Make no mistake, I am not saying the blame is on anyone but Republicans. I am saying that Dems didn't even give us a real chance. Obama shouldda, Harry Reid couldda, Nancy Pelosi mighta

At the end of the day they did nothing but feebly protest as their counterparts surrendered to extremism. There weren't democrats in power scrambling to reform the electoral process. They failed to appreciate the whims of the electorate ahead of redistricting in the 2010 midterms, I remember the Tea Party frenzy and how Dems scoffed at the silly loony toons.

There was no one who stood up and pointed out all of the flaws when it still might have mattered. The signs were there, certainly many a left wing pundit mentioned the danger. But where were the power brokers? Obama knew about Russian interference in the election and chose to do literally nothing.

He just didn't want the problem. Rather than recognizing the deadly seriousness of the symptoms that had been present in  the Republic for all to see, he left it to DOJ and to Congress.

A DOJ and Congress he knew was compromised. In his arrogance (and this extends to just about everyone in D.C.) he thought that the situation would resolve itself. That sense of entitlement is exactly what brought us here. Things should stay normal because that's the way they've always been.

It's an impossible task, safeguarding the electorate. But that was the job. They shouldn't be remembered fondly as skillful men and women attempting to stave off the ruin of the Republic. They were incompetent and shortsighted. The astounding arrogance of the protectors of the American government, the blind assumption that they didn't need to proactively address the fissures that became impossible to ignore the better part of a decade ago, has taken this country into a dark place.

Personally, I'm very concerned. The worst part is knowing that if these people don't fix the problem now, as in right now. We won't ever get to properly mourn our country. This is not a crisis that will be resolved by Democrats retaking power. There will NEVER be enough Democratic support to fix these problems without help from the Republican party.

With every day that passes without Devin Nunes and his cronies being stripped of their positions by Paul Ryan, the more certain it becomes that from here it's a long a inevitable drag to despotism.

We are SO FUCKED that there isn't time for pretending like democrats aren't above reproach. If there is a way to stave off that final step.

Nancy Pelosi and the other fools that claim to represent liberal ideals in D.C. are not the ones who are going to do it.

[Shryke]

42 minutes ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

But at the end of the day it was their jobs to protect the Republic from itself. Make no mistake, I am not saying the blame is on anyone but Republicans. I am saying that Dems didn't even give us a real chance. Obama shouldda, Harry Reid couldda, Nancy Pelosi mighta

At the end of the day they did nothing but feebly protest as their counterparts surrendered to extremism. There weren't democrats in power scrambling to reform the electoral process. They failed to appreciate the whims of the electorate ahead of redistricting in the 2010 midterms, I remember the Tea Party frenzy and how Dems scoffed at the silly loony toons.

There was no one who stood up and pointed out all of the flaws when it still might have mattered. The signs were there, certainly many a left wing pundit mentioned the danger. But where were the power brokers? Obama knew about Russian interference in the election and chose to do literally nothing.

He just didn't want the problem. Rather than recognizing the deadly seriousness of the symptoms that had been present in  the Republic for all to see, he left it to DOJ and to Congress.

A DOJ and Congress he knew was compromised. In his arrogance (and this extends to just about everyone in D.C.) he thought that the situation would resolve itself. That sense of entitlement is exactly what brought us here. Things should stay normal because that's the way they've always been.

It's an impossible task, safeguarding the electorate. But that was the job. They shouldn't be remembered fondly as skillful men and women attempting to stave off the ruin of the Republic. They were incompetent and shortsighted. The astounding arrogance of the protectors of the American government, the blind assumption that they didn't need to proactively address the fissures that became impossible to ignore the better part of a decade ago, has taken this country into a dark place.

Personally, I'm very concerned. The worst part is knowing that if these people don't fix the problem now, as in right now. We won't ever get to properly mourn our country. This is not a crisis that will be resolved by Democrats retaking power. There will NEVER be enough Democratic support to fix these problems without help from the Republican party.

With every day that passes without Devin Nunes and his cronies being stripped of their positions by Paul Ryan, the more certain it becomes that from here it's a long a inevitable drag to despotism.

We are SO FUCKED that there isn't time for pretending like democrats aren't above reproach. If there is a way to stave off that final step.

Nancy Pelosi and the other fools that claim to represent liberal ideals in D.C. are not the ones who are going to do it.

You can't protect the republic from itself. It is foolish to think you can. There is no response within the US political system to a large portion of the polity having no interest in democracy or the rule of law.

Like, you blame Obama for "doing nothing" about the interference in the election but Obama did do something. He acted through the tools available to the executive and he tried to go public with it. But McConnell said he'd make it a partisan issue. And if you've been paying any attention to the Trump era, you should know that McConnell's threat is a game-winner here. If the Right wants to refuse to acknowledge this reality and instead make it a partisan issue, there will be no action on it from Congress and no pressure on them to act and no unified agreement on whether anyone should act. (just look at what is going on with the Russians sanctions right now today for an example of this at work.)

Equally foolish it thinking you can stop a wave election swinging back against you. At best you can fight it but it's not like the Democrats weren't trying to win in 2010, 2012 and 2014. There is only so far electoral tactics can take you.

Your whole problem is you are ascribing far too much agency to the Democratic party to do anything about this. You seem to desperately want to believe they fucked up, except the truth is they have very limited agency in these matters. They can't "fix the problem now, as in right now". They don't have the power to do that. The distance between what they've done and what they could have done is a lot smaller then you are thinking here. Especially when it comes to results.

The US political system and culture has long been broken at a far deeper and more fundamental level then 1 political party is capable of addressing on it's own.

[Shryke]

Like, I think you have to look at what is going on right now in the Trump era and note the simple abject truth that the political system and culture of the US is simply incapable of dealing with an extremist bad faith actor like the Republican party.

Trump and his cronies and other GOP members are out there daily brazenly shitting on the law and the rules and the traditions of american governance and it's not even just that their voters don't care, the media and political culture itself can't bring itself around to stating the obvious.

The President of the United States literally admitted to obstruction of justice on TV. Openly. And yet ... nothing. Today he's openly aiding an enemy of the US who interfered in the last election in accessing their ill-gotten money. Nothing. There's multiple times now that Republican politicians have been caught openly saying they are trying to disenfranchise democratic voters via voter ID and gerrymandering to win elections. And nothing.

And there's no shortage of articles and politicians and activists talking about this shit. But it doesn't make a difference.

You can't really have expected better results 8 years ago when the GOP was being far less brazen when you can't even get real consensus and results right now.

[ThinkerX]

I would argue there is a strong element of desperation to the GOP's actions.  Demographically, even in the medium term ( three or four presidential elections), they're screwed if they stick to their current model.  By tying themselves to Trump, and more importantly Trumps base, they are tied to a group that is shrinking.  Eventually, even gerrymandering and voter suppression won't suffice to keep them in power.

That said, I figure we are looking at a realignment of a sort not seen in fifty years.  Dust settles, the US will still be a two party system...

...one party representing the corporate world, from executives to Walmart Wage Slaves, generally pro business and anti-union, but throwing oddball bones out now and again to keep the serfs pacified;

...the other a party of 'those at the bottom,' including minorities, and a fair number of the more ethical business types.

I expect this transformation to take a decade or two.