LGBTQ+ 6 -- It's a Rainbow of Flavors

[TrackerNeil]

6 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Please see my edit on that post, I was missing the starting point of your question.

I'm not aware of Bindel having ever said explicitly that she would ban it outright but wouldn't expect her to actually come out and say it, just do everything to make it as hard as possible.

Thank you. And, to be clear, I am aware that no reasonable person is ever going to mistake Bindel for a trans ally--she's not, and she's pretty open about that.

EDITED TO ADD: I'm going to provide context for my question, so I don't seem to be monkeying around.

Lately, I have been cultivating in myself intellectual humility. Part of that is trying not to make factual statements unless I can back them up. Another is being able to state the opinions of my opponents in a way they would recognize, without strawmanning. When I saw an assertion that Julie Bindel wants to somehow prevent people from transitioning, both of those were tapped.

Edited July 24, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Varysblackfyre321]

20 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Very well. I have no real opinion on the article to which you linked, because I have not read that article in its entirety. I'm not going to form an opinion based on a snippet I saw on Twitter.

There’s overlapping context to make the fearmongering about adults transitioning better dude.

20 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

That said, I certainly think that a choice made as an adult is very different from that made as a child. It seems as though Herron made an adult decision. I don't know UK law, certainly, so I can't say whether or not his legal action will succeed, but it sounds like he has a hard row to hoe.

That said please if you can read the article and see it’s no different than Milo Yianpolis bemoaning about an overly feminine society turning him and other men gay.

20 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Varys made a very specific factual claim, and I asked for evidence to support that claim. That's it.

Ehhh well ACTUALLY, you didn’t. My original claim was most terfs famous and not genuinely like this bloke(who I labeled a terf) don’t want anyone to transition, usually equating it to sexism(ex.trans women are just woman-face) and butchery(look at 33 year old Elliot Page’s chest that’s so awful).

 

You however asked specifically who’d I’d consider a terf and specifically enquired if those people listed explicitly said they wanted to ban transitioning altogether

Edit. Rand Paul is a Republican who I’m going to guess doesn’t particularly care about homosexuality.

If I say most republicans view homosexuality as immoral and/or should be shielded from kids and then was asked to name a republican and I said rand Paul that wouldn’t dismantle my claim.

Oh should also note Maya Forestar also got into  the fearmongering about this guy and an autistic adult whose 23 transitioning.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[TrackerNeil]

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

There’s overlapping context to make the fearmongering about adults transitioning better dude.

That said please if you can read the article and see it’s no different than Milo Yianpolis bemoaning an overly feminine society turning him and other men gay.

Ehhh well ACTUALLY, you didn’t. My original claim was most terfs famous and not genuinely like this bloke(who I labeled a terf) don’t want anyone to transition, usually equating it to sexism(ex.trans women are just woman-face) and butchery(look at Elliot Page’s chest that’s so awful).

You however asked who’d I’d consider a terf and didn’t specifically enquirer if those people listed explicitly said they wanted to ban transitioning altogether.

 

Unfortunately, that article is behind a paywall, so we're out of luck. However, if you have general questions on the topic I can try to answer them.

You are right; you did say "most." So then, we seem to agree that Bindel has no documented history of wanting to prevent people from transitioning? I am pleased we agree.

Edited July 24, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

You are right; you did say "most." So then, we seem to agree that Bindel has no documented history of wanting to prevent people from transitioning? I

What do you think is the logical conclusion of presenting trans women as misogynistic caricatures, and surgery butchery?

[TrackerNeil]

Just now, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What do you think is the logical conclusion of presenting trans women as misogynistic caricatures, and surgery butchery?

Part of my development of intellectual humility is trying to avoid claiming to know what other people are thinking. I don't know Bindel, and I don't care what, if any, secret hatred she harbors. I try to focus on what she says, and to agree or disagree with her words, and not my judgment of her thoughts.

[Varysblackfyre321]

21 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Part of my development of intellectual humility is trying to avoid claiming to know what other people are thinking

That sounds on the onset reasonable but it can let bad-faith or malicious actors just present themselves as more, empathic reasonable and enlightened than they are and enable lead people to guiding people to position they’d initially be wary of—sometimes for good reason.

Ever listen to a white-Nationalist(like an avowed white nationalist) debate someone outside of their camp?

Most of the time they try to present themselves as being concerned with members of all races, a principle of fairness, and abhorring the idea of any use of violence.

I’m reminded of one Canadian Nazi who at the start of a debate tried to say his ideology was actually extremely feminist and then ending the debate doing bad impression of what he perceived as a ‘ghetto’ black man and saying white people will win the race war.

21 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I don't know Bindel, and I don't care what, if any, secret hatred she harbors

That’s unwise when she’s a prominent feminist voice pushing specific claim in regards to a minority. If you care for social justice which I’m sure you do.

 

21 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I try to focus on what she says,

What she says leads to the logical conclusion of banning transitioning because if you take it as truth its butchery of the mentally ill and a gross display of misogyny.. for anyone who cares about the mentally ill and doesn’t like misogyny.

If a person says gay people are deranged perverts that are a threat to children, that public displays of homosexuality degenerate society harps on it constantly, the only logical conclusion if you take them at their word is that gay people and any pro-gay advocacy should barred from where they can see them. For anyone who fancies themselves as concerned with child well-fare.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[TrackerNeil]

19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That’s unwise when she’s a prominent feminist voice pushing specific claim in regards to a minority. If you care for social justice which I’m sure you do.

It's unwise for me to not try to read someone's mind? When my life ends I am sure I will have some regrets, but I doubt that one of them will be, "I sure am sorry I didn't pretend to know what Julie Bindel thinks."

 

19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

That sounds on the onset reasonable but it can let bad-faith or malicious actors just present themselves as more, empathic reasonable and enlightened than they are and enable lead people to guiding people to position they’d initially be wary of—sometimes for good reason.

I don't recall any situation in which reasonable humility caused harm. My unwillingness to pretend to know someone's thoughts has never prevented me from disagreeing with what they say--and from voting that way. Maybe this is different for others but so far it's working for me.

 

19 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If a person says gay people are deranged perverts that are a threat to children, that public displays of homosexuality degenerate society harps on it constantly, the only logical conclusion if you take them at their word is that gay people and any pro-gay advocacy should barred from where they can see them.

Not by my lights, no. In my half-century on this planet, I have encountered several people who thought that homosexuality was morally wrong, but who also thought same-sex marriage should be legal. People can have nuanced opinions on the issues of the day. So, to come back to the original topic, it is possible that Julie Bindel utterly despises trans people but still thinks they should be allowed to transition if they want. That is a position it is possible for a human being to hold, although I can't say if Bindel holds it.

Edited July 24, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Varysblackfyre321]

46 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

It's unwise for me to not try to read someone's mind?

It’s unwise to pretend as though everyone has to literally, explicitly, state their positions on a issue for it to be properly gleamed.

Alex Jones has never said “go harass the Sand hook parents” he just repeatedly stated they worked for the government and we’re trying to take the guns away from the public to his audience of millions through faking the deaths of their own children.

 

46 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

When my life ends I am sure I will have some regrets, but I doubt that one of them will be, "I sure am sorry I didn't pretend to know what Julie Bindel thinks.

Hey are you angry that when People say Nick Fuentes hates Jews when he quite explicitly says he’s all about love?

46 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

I don't recall any situation in which reasonable humility caused harm.

Key word reasonable.

Theres a difference between being reasonable and being daft or deliberately obtuse.

For example Candace Owens defending Kanye west when he said “I’m going Deathcon on Jews!” By saying it’s unreasonable to assume he was being hateful towards Jews and that she was curious on what he meant,

46 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

Not by my lights, no. In my half-century on this planet, I have encountered several people who thought that homosexuality was morally wrong, but who also thought same-sex marriage should be legal.

Yeah and a lot of white-nationalists despite all their advocacy usually in public shy away giving specific policy prescriptions when pressed for details on how exactly they’d get their preferred ethno-state.

Also no dude I’m not talking about  just viewing homosexuality as morally wrong— that gay people present an active danger to children, that they’re dangerous perverts.

If I say gay people are threats to children it’s only logical if I take that as true (and if I care for children) to be in favor of not allowing anyone actively gay around  children(least alone) or in custody of children or to allow them to potentially be traumatized with same-sex activity(two guys kissing) out in public.

 

This may allow for the libertarian option of “well they can do what they want in private like any other kink ” which I’ve seen a religious theocrat offer as compromise.

46 minutes ago, TrackerNeil said:

People can have nuanced opinions on the issues of the day. So, to come back to the original topic, it is possible that Julie Bindel utterly despises trans people but still thinks they should be allowed to transition if they want.

If you say transitioning is butchering the mentally-ill and innately misogynistic and you actually care(least you think you do) about about the mentally ill and misogyny not being systematically approved yes, you should support banning transitioning in a civil society, it’d be more heinous if you didn’t.

Like If you say gay couples adopting children is child-abuse you should be against the practice. 
 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321
Inserted say

[Varysblackfyre321]

Michael Knowles is an evil man. But he adequately explains on how cultivating a certain of frame work to judge one thing can be easily expanded into other areas.

Republicans haven’t been as outwardly homophobic as they used to generally—but they’ve still managed to crater their levels of acceptance  of same-sex activity to what it was in 2010 just constantly raging about trans people.

The logic necessary to hate/ fear trans liberations in society is not dissimilar to the logic necessary to hate/fear gay liberal, which is not dissimilar to hate/fear  sexual liberation in general, the arguments are generally (besides minor tweaks) the same.

[karaddin]

5 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

Lately, I have been cultivating in myself intellectual humility. Part of that is trying not to make factual statements unless I can back them up. Another is being able to state the opinions of my opponents in a way they would recognize, without strawmanning. When I saw an assertion that Julie Bindel wants to somehow prevent people from transitioning, both of those were tapped.

I think its naive to restrict your views on a person to only incorporate their explicit statements without taking any account of their past behaviour, other statements or awareness of inferences from the body of opinions as a whole. This doesn't simply work in a negative fashion, there are other people on this board for whom I would have assumed a level of bad faith from your initial question in this thread (this would actually be true for a brand new account as well) that I didn't from you because I know more about you than there was in that post. 

I'm sure you're actually still doing this as well, so the above is perhaps an exaggeration of your new philosophy and apologies for that, please bear with me here. So if we assume we're discussing where on that spectrum you should fall there's room for nuance.

I actually agree with you that its not clear Julie Bindel specifically would prevent trans people from transitioning. I think it is clear she hates us, but perhaps she views it in such a negative light that she views transition as self inflicted abuse and she's all for us doing that to ourselves. I haven't read much of what she's said in a very long time because she's hateful person generally and there's nothing of value for me to gain from what she says, so its also possible there are statements from her that would lead me to think she does want to entirely ban transition.

I'm going to contrast that against Janice Raymond who I mentioned above, I think there is enough on the record there for me to conclude she would completely ban transition if she had her way - or at least would have at the time she was doing the writing that I know her for.

There is also a difference between making an assertion that a specific person likely believes something compared to that a significant percentage of a group likely believes a thing, and of course there's varying degrees for this too. Saying a specific TERF wants to completely ban transition? Probably needs statements that indicate that compared to the various other ways of excluding trans women. Saying a lot of TERFs want to ban transition? It's a logical inference from the generally held position of the group, I think its true and obviously (if I think its true) I think you can argue that but you are relying on inference and a bunch of other context etc. Saying TERFs as a group want to make transition harder for trans people, and that trans people generally find this pretty antagonistic behaviour? I don't think this is arguable, the explicit positions they have taken lead directly to this outcome. Saying TERFs do the above primarily because they hate trans women? Back into questionable territory. I'd say its definitely true for Bindel and Parker, I don't think its true for JKR and I think the majority of the "members" of the movement (as distinct from the "leaders") are likely much closer to JKR on this than those other 2. Saying that TERFs prioritize the safety of the majority (cis women) over the safety of the minority (trans women and men)? I don't think this one is arguable either, they feel the risk of men falsely claiming to be trans women to access women's bathrooms poses too much of a risk to cis women to allow trans women to use those bathrooms, expecting trans women to go elsewhere and sort their own safety. They could make a utilitarian ethical argument for this that I would emphatically reject, but it is a grounding that can be used to justify the lack of concern for others - people do that all the time.

To bring it back to to your stated philosophy - I don't believe most TERFs would accept my phrasing of their stance here on the two items I claim as inarguable, but that is due to it being the uncomfortable truth about their goal that they don't wish to focus on. This is an example of why I don't find that philosophy workable. Sometimes you have to make someone look at the truths they don't like.

But this probably isn't something we're going to be able to find common ground on when you're talking fundamentally different philosophy on life/social dynamics.

[Varysblackfyre321]

I hate the CPC so much. 

 

11 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I actually agree with you that its not clear Julie Bindel specifically would prevent trans people from transitioning. I think it is clear she hates us, but perhaps she views it in such a negative light that she views transition as self inflicted abuse and she's all for us doing that to ourselves.

That would be the most disfavorble interpretation of her.

14 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Saying TERFs do the above primarily because they hate trans women? Back into questionable territory. I'd say its definitely true for Bindel and Parker, I don't think its true for JKR and I think the majority of the "members" of the movement (as distinct from the "leaders") are likely much closer to JKR on this than those other 2.

Should be noted it’s a bit harder to justify banning medical transitioning using trans women because they’re viewed as men and thus more respect is given to the idea their decisions are theirs.

Hence the trot out of out trans-men.

21 minutes ago, karaddin said:

To bring it back to to your stated philosophy - I don't believe most TERFs would accept my phrasing of their stance here on the two items I claim as inarguable, but that is due to it being the uncomfortable truth about their goal that they don't wish to focus on

At least to you a perceived hostile adversary in public.

In a calm, friendly setting, a lot of people are more apt to let loose their more…controversial ideas come out.

 

The forums filled with Terfs or made by and for them aren’t dissimilar to any other far-right forum. I know some people think it’s unwise to look at these sorts as things as fringe mutterings but it does give a pulse to the type rhetoric and ideas that are seen as acceptable  by terfs in their spaces
 

[Varysblackfyre321]

43 minutes ago, karaddin said:

This is an example of why I don't find that philosophy workable. Sometimes you have to make someone look at the truths they don't like.

Some people don’t think or want to think about the natural conclusion of their activism.

many pro-lifers may say and push for a total abortion ban and be shocked when people are forced to carry to term an ecopeltic pregnancy, a fetus with no kidneys, or when a 8 year old is forced to give birth. 

Some guys in the alt-right ditched after charolstville where the violent rhetoric lead to a violent outcome 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Varysblackfyre321

[Heartofice]

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

Saying TERFs as a group want to make transition harder for trans people, and that trans people generally find this pretty antagonistic behaviour? I don't think this is arguable,

There are two sides to this coin. Most, if not all 'TERFs' would want more safeguards and medical supervision in place for those wanting to transition. You could accurately say that this makes transition harder, but that might not be an overall negative as it prevents abuse and malpractice and leads to more trust in the system. There are lots of examples in the world where more supervision and regulation makes performing an action take longer but overall is to the benefit of all.

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

Saying that TERFs prioritize the safety of the majority (cis women) over the safety of the minority (trans women and men)? I don't think this one is arguable either, they feel the risk of men falsely claiming to be trans women to access women's bathrooms poses too much of a risk to cis women to allow trans women to use those bathrooms, expecting trans women to go elsewhere and sort their own safety.

I wouldn't disagree with this either (although this conversations seems to always centre of bathrooms when TERFs are more often concerned with changing rooms and rape centres). However I'm quite sure that their position is born out of the lack of safeguarding around transition rather than any issues with genuine trans people. 
 

3 hours ago, karaddin said:

Saying a lot of TERFs want to ban transition? It's a logical inference from the generally held position of the group,

Here is where I disagree. I'm sure there are some extremes of the movement, but they are no representative of the feeling of most gender critics from what I've seen, as you'd said I think most are closer to Rowling on most points. I don't think it is the logical inference at all that they would want to ban transition for adults. In fact I'm pretty sure someone like Rowling has outwardly stated she has sympathy and love for trans people, she clearly wants them to live full and rich lives, full transition would be a part of that. The difference is that they believe that it isn't a decision to be made likely and should be genuine and real. 
 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Heartofice

[Larry of the Lawn]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

. I don't think it is the logical inference at all that they would want to ban transition for adults. In fact I'm pretty sure someone like Rowling has outwardly stated she has sympathy and love for trans people, she clearly wants them to live full and rich lives, full transition would be a part of that. The difference is that they believe that it isn't a decision to be made likely and should be genuine and real. 

 

Re: bolded- a reasonable conclusion here would be that Rowling and co think there are many trans people who aren't "truly trans", no?

[Raja]

It's all just apologetic bullshit re: Rowling & all the statements that she has made over the years, as well as other TERFs like Bindel, Joanna Cherry.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, Larry of the Lake said:

Re: bolded- a reasonable conclusion here would be that Rowling and co think there are many trans people who aren't "truly trans", no?

It depends on your definition of 'many', but yes I think the whole bone of contention is that there are some who are not in reality trans, and  are either abusing the system for their own benefit, or being pushed down a non reversible pathway during a time of confusion and self discovery.

[Week]

On 1/25/2018 at 8:15 PM, Xray the Enforcer said:

Reminder: This thread is for the discussion of issues relating to the lives of LBGTQ+ (lesbian, bisexual, gay, transgender/transsexual, queer/questioning) people. This thread aims to be a supportive space for issues on sexuality and gender identities. Please do not post comments that negate, belittle, or insult people's chosen identity.

This thread operates with a number of givens, including (but not limited to): that equal marriage rights are human rights, and thus are not subject to debate in this thread; that bisexuality is a legitimate orientation and is not up for debate in this thread; among others. This is not an exhaustive list, and it is up to the mods' discretion what is or isn't a legitimate avenue of debate. 

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Raja said:

It's all just apologetic bullshit re: Rowling & all the statements that she has made over the years, as well as other TERFs like Bindel, Joanna Cherry.

True. If someone looks at those people and scoffs at the notion of them being transphobic they’ve a either a very unreasonable standard for what transphobia is or simply thinks transphobia is a silly concept. One could possibly gleam as to what is the case if the person has expressed anger at people using the phrase “trans rights’ and needless used parenthesis around transphobia to indicate sarcasm.

2 hours ago, Week said:

 

It is peculiar how conservatives rush to defend terfs for their political—advocacy. Maybe because fudamentally what Terfs are arguing is conservative. Just a thought*

[TrackerNeil]

Sorry, inadvertant post

Edited July 24, 2023 by TrackerNeil

[Heartofice]

Here in the UK Anneliese Dodds, who I tend to view as the worst caricature of a left wing supply teacher, but is actually a Labour MP and likely to be in Government by next election has put out an article on the topic regarding Labour’s approach.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/24/labour-will-lead-on-reform-of-transgender-rights-and-we-wont-take-lectures-from-the-divisive-tories
 

And I think it’s pretty sensible, and addresses issues for all sides. Which suggests there is a way forward and a middle ground, as long as what she is saying works in practice.