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James Fenimore Cooper XXII

Daenerys is Azor Ahai.

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1 hour ago, Nina DarkSister said:

 

LOL! I totally agree. Jon will be a resurrected corpse and I very much doubt that he survives in the end or that he is the savior of the world. I have not seen Jon as such an important character for the end of the story.

Then what has been the point of having him in the story at all? 

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I agree with @Lost Melnibonean, I think Jon will come back. Simply because none of the major characters other than Stannis,Mel and Davos know about the threat of White walkers/Others. So, Atleast there should be one major POV to atleast help Dany/Tyrion/Aegon(or whoever is sitting on the IT and/or is AA) at the time of WW invasion understand what they are even if he is not AA 

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3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Then what has been the point of having him in the story at all? 

He's the lone wolf.  The man without a country.  What has been his role so far?  He infiltrated the wildlings and grew to like them.  He actually became one of them and he was never able to assimilate back to the life of Nightwatchman.  If my suspicions are correct that Jon will come back as an ice wight, he could become one of the Others and become the medium through which the two species can negotiate.  Jon will retain some parts of his humanity but he will become a White Walker.  He will never be completely human again.  He will exists in that world between human and white walker.  

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12 minutes ago, 867-5309 said:

He's the lone wolf.  The man without a country.  What has been his role so far?  He infiltrated the wildlings and grew to like them.  He actually became one of them and he was never able to assimilate back to the life of Nightwatchman.  If my suspicions are correct that Jon will come back as an ice wight, he could become one of the Others and become the medium through which the two species can negotiate.  Jon will retain some parts of his humanity but he will become a White Walker.  He will never be completely human again.  He will exists in that world between human and white walker.  

Would make sense if he had to negotiate with Lady Stoneheart.

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50 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Would make sense if he had to negotiate with Lady Stoneheart.

:wideeyed: Those two will just kill each other.

1 hour ago, 867-5309 said:

He's the lone wolf.  The man without a country.  What has been his role so far?  He infiltrated the wildlings and grew to like them.  He actually became one of them and he was never able to assimilate back to the life of Nightwatchman.

GRRM wrote a similar story with plot like that. Only it was sci-fi, and instead of wildlings there were aliens. After getting to know them, main character decided to stay with them, and help them, instead of returning to his own people. So even though Jon likes wildlings, it doesn't make him a person without country, more like it makes him one of free folk.

6 hours ago, Nina DarkSister said:

I have not seen Jon as such an important character for the end of the story.

He's a merge of Aragorn and Gandalf. So without him the story won't be able to develop. He's the last hero. If he won't be alive, then there's no one else, who can resolve that situation on The Wall and beyond it. There are over a thousand wildlings in Mole's Town, close to four thousands on The Wall, and six more thousands at Hardhome. Who will save those people if not Jon? Who else, if not him, may be a mediator between wildlings and people of 7K? What was the point of introducing northern characters?, if all of them will be killed by the Others, then will turn into wights, and then they will go and kill everyone else, The End.

How do you see the story keep going without Jon? Dany is not a warrior, thus she won't be wielding Lightbringer. Nor will Tyrion.

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Dany will be impregnated by Jon and their child it will be thought if sacrificed will second life and thus wake a dragon that has turned to stone, and then as a dragon save the world. The AA/TPTWP legends cover at various times the role Jon is to play, at other times Dany's role and at other times the child sacrifice's role. The stories are a symbolic mash up of what is to happen, for example the temple of sacred fires in which Lightbringer is forged in the story represents Dany's womb.

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2 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

He's the lone wolf.  The man without a country.  What has been his role so far?  He infiltrated the wildlings and grew to like them.  He actually became one of them and he was never able to assimilate back to the life of Nightwatchman.  If my suspicions are correct that Jon will come back as an ice wight, he could become one of the Others and become the medium through which the two species can negotiate.  Jon will retain some parts of his humanity but he will become a White Walker.  He will never be completely human again.  He will exists in that world between human and white walker.  

I don't buy it. But Jenny, don't change your number. 

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On 3/16/2018 at 8:34 PM, Megorova said:

 

Obviously, I don't agree with you.  Jon's days as a warmblooded human are over.  I feel like the fans will be cheated if George brings him back in human form.  Jon fucked up badly at the wall .  You don't usually get a second chance in this world.  There is no need for a sword swinging warrior to be the hero because there are too many of those already. 

Edited by 867-5309

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23 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't buy it. But Jenny, don't change your number. 

Suit yourself.  I think, and I hope, that IF Jon does come back, that he comes back as an irreversible wight. 

Edited by 867-5309

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12 minutes ago, 867-5309 said:

Obviously, I don't agree with you.  Jon's days as a warmblooded human are over.  I feel like the fans will be cheated if George brings him back in human form.  Jon fucked up badly at the wall .  You don't usually get a second chance in this world.  There is no need for a sword swinging warrior to be the hero because there are too many of those already. 

He may not be dead. He was stabbed once in the belly, and once between shoulder blades. If those daggers didn't hit liver or heart, or blood artery, then those wounds are not critical. It's just that everything ended so abruptly, that we didn't even know, how serious were his wounds. Could be that they weren't even deep. Because in that cold whether, Jon was wearing multy layered clothes, wool, boiled leather, cape, maybe even ringmail. All of it lessened strength and depthness of those stabs.

So where's cheating in that (Jon being still alive after that attack), if it was readers themselves, that misunderstood what was written in the book?

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Just now, Megorova said:

He may not be dead. He was stabbed once in the belly, and once between shoulder blades. If those daggers didn't hit liver or heart, or blood artery, then those wounds are not critical. It's just that everything ended so abruptly, that we didn't even know, how serious were his wounds. Could be that they weren't even deep. Because in that cold whether, Jon was wearing multy layered clothes, wool, boiled leather, cape, maybe even ringmail. All of it lessened strength and depthness of those stabs.

So where's cheating in that (Jon being still alive after that attack), if it was readers themselves, that misunderstood what was written in the book?

I expect Jon Snowman to die.  I would feel cheated if he doesn't.

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11 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Suit yourself.  I think, and I hope, that IF Jon does come back, that he comes back as an irreversible wight. 

What we hope, and what the George is writing, might be two different things. As Stannis says, "It is not a question of wanting." 

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On 3/18/2018 at 8:55 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

What we hope, and what the George is writing, might be two different things. As Stannis says, "It is not a question of wanting." 

That is true.  Maybe he won't come back at all and that is for the better.  At least it will be for me.  -_-

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1 hour ago, 867-5309 said:

That is true.  Maybe he won't come back at all and that is for the better.  At least it will be for me.  -_-

Oh, the special snowflake is coming back all right. His thoughts of Satin's curls will help see him through. 

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On 2/27/2018 at 8:56 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

  1.  

Thanks for the thoughtful replies to my original topic. I have done some more reading and came up with additional ideas on this topic.  Apologies because we have gone to the side of the road and veered to the left of the topic.  But this is still about Dany so I feel it's fine to proceed.  So those old men with the swords of fire.  They were Azor Ahai and the vision doesn't paint a picture of men who were in their primes and the tattered clothes probably meant they had not changed for a long time.  What could make kings wear faded and worn clothing?  The more I think on this and the more I read people's comments the more I refine my original ideas.  The clothes are faded because they were living through the long night!  Lack of food, spare clothing, gaunt, pale.  All point to people who lost civilization.  And their bespoke tailors!  

So if Azor Ahai won, why did the long night last so long?  Answer: He didn't win.  History is often wrong so why not legends.  Those Azor Ahais could not turn back the darkness.  They had to wait it out until the long night passed.  This is consistent with Nan's story of a night that lasted for a lifetime.  They also killed their wives. Due to insanity or maybe just like in Nan's story of the mother's smothering their babies to spare them from suffering.  Dany smothered Drogo to spare him from suffering.  

I don't have much to base this on except the post "Targaryen Madness Is An Exaggeration" and 'Will Jon Snow Go Mad?" posts.  I believe those kings went mad.  They were the ancestors of the Targaryens and they were all Azor Ahai.  They went mad.  Male Targaryens are susceptible to madness.  Think about this.  Madness can't be common among the 40 ruling families of old Valyria.  So just maybe it's not a Valyrian thing, it's a Targaryen family curse.  Call it genetics.  Whatever the case may be, many male Targaryens go mad.  

What is their interest in our young hero?  They were cheering Dany on like a squad of retired male cheerleaders.  Run, run away from the darkness.  Wake, wake the dragon.  They were encouraging Dany because she is the only hope to defeat the long night.  Why?  Because she's the first female Azor Ahai.  She's not susceptible to madness.   Azor Ahai is now female and she has three dragons.  She is the Prince Who Was Promised.  The prophecy used the word "prince" and it has been explained because dragons are gender neutral.  But we have to remember, the prophesied person comes before the dragons.  The word choice is not "prince' because dragons are gender neutral but because all the other Azor Ahais before were male.  But this time around is different and this is the game changer that everyone has been waiting for.  AA is born a female this time and instead of a magic sword she has three dragons!  English is not my strongest point so I am not getting my ideas across as well as I would like.  But I believe those old guys were AAs of ancient times, they lost the battle for the long night, they murdered their wives because they went insane, they only had swords to fight with, they have been waiting all this time for the Prince Who Was Promised, they needed a female AA to avoid the madness, they needed a female to hatch dragons, and that female Azor Ahai is Daenerys.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145805-targaryen-madness-is-an-exaggeration/

:agree:

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I didn't read the full theory but I agree that Dany is the most likely candidate for Azor Ahai + The Prince That Was Promised + The Stallion That Mounts The World. I find it odd that fans seem to discount her in favor of Jon when she has literally fulfilled the first two prophecies already. If they are truly the same that is. The only other option I could see happening is that they are BOTH Azor Ahai, interchangeably. Along with possibly Tyrion. Their mothers are meant to be Nissa Nissa imo. According to Catholics (which GRRM is AFAIK), a mother dying in childbirth is the ultimate sacrifice. Only death pays for life. There's also the parallel of them ALL being the youngest of 3 siblings, and that all 3 siblings are M/M/F groups. It all ties together. 

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Wow. A lot of people agree to this and that is good. I agree that Danaerys is Azor Ahai the hero come again. 

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On March 16, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Then what has been the point of having him in the story at all? 

He will be Danaerys's husband and connection to the north, along with Arya in a polygamous marriage. All three of them are swords but Danaerys is the only queen. 

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On 3/17/2018 at 9:14 PM, 867-5309 said:

Obviously, I don't agree with you.  Jon's days as a warmblooded human are over.  I feel like the fans will be cheated if George brings him back in human form.  Jon fucked up badly at the wall .  You don't usually get a second chance in this world.  There is no need for a sword swinging warrior to be the hero because there are too many of those already

:cheers:    Yes

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On 3/4/2018 at 8:14 AM, Princess Daenerys said:

You may be right.  Dany fits the criteria to be Azor Ahai.  Drogo was her Nissa Nissa and the sacrifice led to the birth of the dragons.

If a sword can light up when orcs are near why not a sword that lights up when the others are coming.  I agree and it's not an actual sword that cuts flesh but one that cuts through the darkness like a blade of sunlight. 

This is George paying homage to Tolkien.  

On 2/27/2018 at 8:56 PM, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

 

  1.  

Thanks for the thoughtful replies to my original topic. I have done some more reading and came up with additional ideas on this topic.  Apologies because we have gone to the side of the road and veered to the left of the topic.  But this is still about Dany so I feel it's fine to proceed.  So those old men with the swords of fire.  They were Azor Ahai and the vision doesn't paint a picture of men who were in their primes and the tattered clothes probably meant they had not changed for a long time.  What could make kings wear faded and worn clothing?  The more I think on this and the more I read people's comments the more I refine my original ideas.  The clothes are faded because they were living through the long night!  Lack of food, spare clothing, gaunt, pale.  All point to people who lost civilization.  And their bespoke tailors!  

So if Azor Ahai won, why did the long night last so long?  Answer: He didn't win.  History is often wrong so why not legends.  Those Azor Ahais could not turn back the darkness.  They had to wait it out until the long night passed.  This is consistent with Nan's story of a night that lasted for a lifetime.  They also killed their wives. Due to insanity or maybe just like in Nan's story of the mother's smothering their babies to spare them from suffering.  Dany smothered Drogo to spare him from suffering.  

I don't have much to base this on except the post "Targaryen Madness Is An Exaggeration" and 'Will Jon Snow Go Mad?" posts.  I believe those kings went mad.  They were the ancestors of the Targaryens and they were all Azor Ahai.  They went mad.  Male Targaryens are susceptible to madness.  Think about this.  Madness can't be common among the 40 ruling families of old Valyria.  So just maybe it's not a Valyrian thing, it's a Targaryen family curse.  Call it genetics.  Whatever the case may be, many male Targaryens go mad.  

What is their interest in our young hero?  They were cheering Dany on like a squad of retired male cheerleaders.  Run, run away from the darkness.  Wake, wake the dragon.  They were encouraging Dany because she is the only hope to defeat the long night.  Why?  Because she's the first female Azor Ahai.  She's not susceptible to madness.   Azor Ahai is now female and she has three dragons.  She is the Prince Who Was Promised.  The prophecy used the word "prince" and it has been explained because dragons are gender neutral.  But we have to remember, the prophesied person comes before the dragons.  The word choice is not "prince' because dragons are gender neutral but because all the other Azor Ahais before were male.  But this time around is different and this is the game changer that everyone has been waiting for.  AA is born a female this time and instead of a magic sword she has three dragons!  English is not my strongest point so I am not getting my ideas across as well as I would like.  But I believe those old guys were AAs of ancient times, they lost the battle for the long night, they murdered their wives because they went insane, they only had swords to fight with, they have been waiting all this time for the Prince Who Was Promised, they needed a female AA to avoid the madness, they needed a female to hatch dragons, and that female Azor Ahai is Daenerys.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/145805-targaryen-madness-is-an-exaggeration/

They could have won the battles but that didn't force the sun to come back immediately.  Those ancient versions of Azor Ahai lived through their long nights and all the while dreaming of spring.  This neatly fits the title of the last book and my own belief that the story will end while the world is covered in darkness and the youngsters dream of spring.

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