How far will Arya go to kill her enemies?

[Nowy Tends]

20 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

 What Arya gave that poor old man was way worse.

And this is coming from an admitted supporter of the Frey and other scumbags…  talk about a caricature…

[Kandrax]

8 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

poor old man

There is a theory that old man was Orro Tendrys who abused Bradamar Frey.

[Light a wight tonight]

21 hours ago, Agent Orange said:

None of that makes her normal even for the time she lives in.  

And that so-called gift was not wanted nor desired by the recipient.  Arya was wrong to kill that man.  Let me tell you something, Lighter o' Wights, an unwanted gift is a pair of polka dot socks from your daughter that you hate wearing to work but do it anyway.  What Arya gave that poor old man was way worse.

Arya's not normal; she's exceptional. She's divine retribution, make no mistake. 

The Faceless Men slay for pay, but the payer has to give up more than wealth. They also give up something that is deeply meaningful to them personally. Someone had cause to want the insurance man dead, enough to part with something dear to them. The man bought his own demise through unscrupulous business practices. The fact that others are not punished this severely only means that they were lucky, not that he didn't deserve what he got.

[Son of Man]

Braavos is a commercial city with thriving businesses.  Insurance fraud cannot be legal in such a place.  So the Underwriter would have been arrested if he was guilty of fraud.  Trying to equate business fraud with dueling won't work.  The two are very different.  Just because dueling is tolerated does not mean corrupt business practices like insurance fraud is tolerated.  A thriving business community cannot exist in Braavos if fraud is legal.  Therefore, we can assume that the insurance seller has not broken any laws because no legal action was taken against him.  He was assassinated and that means he did not do anything that can be punished by law.  Arya murdered a person who was more than likely innocent.  

[Nowy Tends]

19 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

Braavos is a commercial city with thriving businesses.  Insurance fraud cannot be legal in such a place.  So the Underwriter would have been arrested if he was guilty of fraud.

We have an expert! who knows his shit!

[Nowy Tends]

24 minutes ago, Son of Man said:

  Arya murdered a person who was more than likely innocent.  

Sure. That's probably why the Kindly Man tells Arya “It is one thing to write such a binder, though, and another to make good on it”, meaning that the guy is a cheater…

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

17 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Braavos is a commercial city with thriving businesses.  Insurance fraud cannot be legal in such a place.  So the Underwriter would have been arrested if he was guilty of fraud.  Trying to equate business fraud with dueling won't work.  The two are very different.  Just because dueling is tolerated does not mean corrupt business practices like insurance fraud is tolerated.  A thriving business community cannot exist in Braavos if fraud is legal.  Therefore, we can assume that the insurance seller has not broken any laws because no legal action was taken against him.  He was assassinated and that means he did not do anything that can be punished by law.  Arya murdered a person who was more than likely innocent.  

True, all true.

After all, "A Song of Ice and Fire" is a story about dutiful fraud investigators and their relentless quest for maintaining and protecting the well-regulated insurance market. Not about swords and poisons and vengeance and shit.

[Light a wight tonight]

20 hours ago, Son of Man said:

Braavos is a commercial city with thriving businesses.  Insurance fraud cannot be legal in such a place.  So the Underwriter would have been arrested if he was guilty of fraud.  Trying to equate business fraud with dueling won't work.  The two are very different.  Just because dueling is tolerated does not mean corrupt business practices like insurance fraud is tolerated.  A thriving business community cannot exist in Braavos if fraud is legal.  Therefore, we can assume that the insurance seller has not broken any laws because no legal action was taken against him.  He was assassinated and that means he did not do anything that can be punished by law.  Arya murdered a person who was more than likely innocent.  

You assume a lot. We know nothing of the Braavosi legal system, but there's no reason think that it closely resembles ours. 

Another way of enforcing business ethics is to have the perps killed by assassins hired by their victims. Remember, the Faceless Men demand a high price for their services, more than a mere business or personal rivalry could justify. The Insurance Man had caused someone a grievous wrong for them to make that sacrifice.

[Nevets]

I don't know whether the Insurance Man is guilty of cheating anybody, and I don't really care.  What is important is that Arya is led to believe that he is guilty, and that appears to be the only reason she is willing to kill him in the first place.

Thus, she still has only killed those people she has reason to believe have committed serious wrongdoing.  Given her personality, I don't see any likelihood of her killing innocents for any reason. much less a whole bunch of them in order to get at someone like Cersei.

[kissdbyfire]

5 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

True, all true.

After all, "A Song of Ice and Fire" is a story about dutiful fraud investigators and their relentless quest for maintaining and protecting the well-regulated insurance market. Not about swords and poisons and vengeance and shit.

The off-the-charts level of absurdity is a tad too much for me at times - especially of late... - but then I read a post like yours here and I feel hopeful again. Maybe we aren't a doomed species!

2 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

You assume a lot. We know nothing of the Braavosi legal system, but there's no reason think that it closely resembles ours. 

Another way of enforcing business ethics is to have the perps killed by assassins hired by their victims. Remember, the Faceless Men demand a high price for their services, more than a mere business or personal rivalry could justify. The Insurance Man had caused someone a grievous wrong for them to make that sacrifice.

Exactly. 

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I don't know whether the Insurance Man is guilty of cheating anybody, and I don't really care.  What is important is that Arya is led to believe that he is guilty, and that appears to be the only reason she is willing to kill him in the first place.

Thus, she still has only killed those people she has reason to believe have committed serious wrongdoing.  Given her personality, I don't see any likelihood of her killing innocents for any reason. much less a whole bunch of them in order to get at someone like Cersei.

Agree wholeheartedly, especiaĺly on Arya's "willingness" to kill innocents. 

[Ser Micaelys]

Some of the opinions here surprise me, it is interesting how people can read the same text but walk away with such different takes on it.

I honestly cannot see Arya being in the 'burn them all' sort of killer crazy to just kill one person especially considering the acts that get people on her list. A but of a contradiction there. Perhaps killing all the Lannisters and their lackeys, placing guilt on some minor people or those who just follow orders. But my impression is Arya is not turning into a nameless heartless thoughtless robot assassin but instead will be unable to let go of Arya Stark and follow orders blindly, as is she is trying to justify her actions to fit her own morals when the two butt heads she will need to make a choice. Only time will tell how the books will unfold.

I do no get the impression Arya is insane, I think there aren't any truly insane pov characters.  They may make choices that appear insane to us but they all have their reasons, even if they're f'd.

I would think if Arya planned to kill Cersei she would not have to blow up KL or something crazy like that, she would use her brains, her stealth and her skills.

I also don't see Arya's actions any worse than any soldier or survivor elsewhere in the story, she does not go out of her way to cause pain or kill, and she has reasoning for her kills. Maturity might make her see other options but due to the society she lives in I can understand why she looks to death, after all she has been taught who gives the sentence swings the sword. Westerosi justice is a bit backwards. Arya is not much different to the other females in the story, the only difference is she is more likely to do things herself instead of allowing or manipulating men to do it for her, or to sit around and just let things unfold in front of her. Proactive.    

[Light a wight tonight]

6 hours ago, Ser Micaelys said:

 

I would think if Arya planned to kill Cersei she would not have to blow up KL or something crazy like that, she would use her brains, her stealth and her skills.

  

Looking at how Arya dealt with the insurance man, even though he was guarded, by stealth, not violence, tells me that she wouldn't need wholesale destruction to bring about Cersei's demise. 

[Sigella]

On 2018-04-27 at 10:37 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

Arya's not normal; she's exceptional. She's divine retribution, make no mistake. 

The Faceless Men slay for pay, but the payer has to give up more than wealth. They also give up something that is deeply meaningful to them personally. Someone had cause to want the insurance man dead, enough to part with something dear to them. The man bought his own demise through unscrupulous business practices. The fact that others are not punished this severely only means that they were lucky, not that he didn't deserve what he got.

Nah, you only have to give up "all of you" to be a FM, not to hire them.

7 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Looking at how Arya dealt with the insurance man, even though he was guarded, by stealth, not violence, tells me that she wouldn't need wholesale destruction to bring about Cersei's demise. 

This would be the textual evidence that kills all opposition that cares for such.  

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Nah, you only have to give up "all of you" to be a FM, not to hire them.

Well...

AFfC,  Cat Of The Canals

"I am no one." She was angry. "Who are you?"

She did not expect the waif to answer, but she did. "I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father's heir," the waif replied. "My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father's wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father's wife received the gift."

ETA: I get that hiring a FM doesn't require one to give up their identity, but the cost is huge, and not only financially so. 

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Well...

AFfC,  Cat Of The Canals

"I am no one." She was angry. "Who are you?"

She did not expect the waif to answer, but she did. "I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father's heir," the waif replied. "My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father's wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father's wife received the gift."

ETA: I get that hiring a FM doesn't require one to give up their identity, but the cost is huge, and not only financially so. 

Or it could mean that the stepmom was... greedy? Also, lying game.

 

edit: I'd underline the part of dad giving up his daughter +wealth rather than the stepmom balking at the price for a better argument but still, lying game. Could just be down to the Waif wingin it.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Isn't the only lie in The Waif story the actual amount of the Father's wealth that he had to surrender?  I can't remember the exact amount......and that particular book is not in the house right now. 

[300 H&H Magnum]

3 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

Looking at how Arya dealt with the insurance man, even though he was guarded, by stealth, not violence, tells me that she wouldn't need wholesale destruction to bring about Cersei's demise. 

That's not the premise of the question.  The question puts Arya in a situation where she has two choices.  Forget about killing her potential victim, or accept collateral damage in order to do so.  The FM are not infallible.  Not even close to it.  Jaqen nearly got himself burned because he got caught and made to ride the paddy wagon to the wall.  Arya may not get access to some of the more guarded people on her list.  

[Sigella]

59 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Isn't the only lie in The Waif story the actual amount of the Father's wealth that he had to surrender?  I can't remember the exact amount......and that particular book is not in the house right now. 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com is awesome.

AFFC Arya II: (the Kindly Man)

Quote

"The one you call waif is a woman grown who has spent her life serving Him of Many Faces. She gave Him all she was, all she ever might have been, all the lives that were within her."

Notice the "she gave" rather than "her dad gave" so that's plainly a lie.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

23 minutes ago, Sigella said:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com is awesome.

AFFC Arya II: (the Kindly Man)

Notice the "she gave" rather than "her dad gave" so that's plainly a lie.

The scene I'm thinking of is not the one you brought, it is The Waif and Arya talking.  The quote further up thread where The Waif tells Arya her story, it's not this conversation with the Kindly Man.  When she's finished, The Waif does, I believe, cop to 'the lie' being the actual amount her father had to pay.  I'm not sure what chapter, I'm not certain of the exact wording.  If I had MY book, and time, I'd look.  Same goes for your link. 

[Sigella]

28 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

The scene I'm thinking of is not the one you brought, it is The Waif and Arya talking.  The quote further up thread where The Waif tells Arya her story, it's not this conversation with the Kindly Man.  When she's finished, The Waif does, I believe, cop to 'the lie' being the actual amount her father had to pay.  I'm not sure what chapter, I'm not certain of the exact wording.  If I had MY book, and time, I'd look.  Same goes for your link. 

Yeah my qoute is what the Kindly Man tells Arya when she asks if the Waif was lying. Turns out she was.