Your Top 3 "to murder" list

[kissdbyfire]

Tywin, Littlefinger, Walder Frey.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

This thread fascinates me .A few days ago people were yapping about crazy Arya getting revenge. Now the good citizens of the site are asking who would you murder. Humor is subjective.

[Megorova]

20 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Killing Robb, Sansa and Bran would have achieved nothing. Stannis, Renly, Joffrey and Balon would still have gone to war against each other and as you say, Aegon and the GC would still invade. You also sort of jump from Wo5K wouldn't happen to Jon and Dany and dragons suddenly on the same side and defeat the GC.

Hell, for all we know killing Bran may be dooming the world to victory by the Others depending on how his story plays out in future installments.

As I wrote above - not necessary killing, would be enough to just have them out of the picture. Then this what could have happened:

Ned Stark has a 15 years old bastard-son Jon Snow, who is actually his nephew, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. And Ned has only two children - 9 y.o. Arya and 3-4 y.o. Rickon. So whom will he leave in charge of Winterfell, if he will go to KL, to become Hand of King Robert? Either his wife Catelyn, or Jon Snow. But even if he will chose Cat, after Ned will be seized by Lannisters, and Robert will die, then the one who will be leading Northern armies, will be Jon, and not Cat.

Jon is smarter than Robb ever was. So he would have never let Cat to negotiate with Walder Frey in his place, he would have never let Theon to go back to Iron Islands, etc. Also Jon is not as ambitious as Robb was, it wouldn't have been necessary for him to become King. Instead he would have joined causes with Stannis. Also instead of immediately going into war against Lannsiters, Jon first would have tried to do everything what he can, to save Ned.

After Ned was imprisoned, for a long time Robb was doing nothing to free his father. That's because he liked to feel himself Lord of Winterfell, and being in charge of people, and their House. So instead of doing something to save Ned, Robb was just loitering around. If Jon was in Robb's shoes, then he would have went incognito to KL. On the way there, fetched Howland Reed and his people from Greywater Watch, and they would have secretly infiltrated KL, and stolen Ned out of the dungeons. After that they would have sailed with Ned to Dragonstone, to Stannis. Ned and Jon both would have supported Stannis.

Ned with Northerners, Stannis with Stormlanders, and Edmure with Riverlanders, and Doran with Dornishmen, would have fought against Tywin in Westerlands, and Jaime and Joffrey in King's Landing. Ned, who thanks to Jon, would have still had Theon, would have made Ironborn to join them, and support Stannis. Even if Littlefinger and Lysa with Knights of The Vale, and Tyrells with their Reachmen, and Renly with half of Stormlanders would have supported Lannisters, that still would have been, 4 and a half Kingdoms against 3 and a half Kingdoms (North, Riverlands, Iron Islands, Dorne, half of Stormlands VS the other half of Stormlands, Westerlands, Vale, Reach). Though fairly fast the balance would have changed in Stannis' favour. Because Northerners and Dornishmen and Ironborn are much better fighters than Reachmen. So Tyrells, even if originally they would have supported either Lannisters or Renly, eventually they would have sided with Stannis, who is stronger (because of his supporters). Also if Stannis from the very beginning had support of The North and Riverlands, then it's unlikely that Renly would have rebelled against him. And also, if so many people would have supported Stannis, then it's unlikely that Littlefinger would have dared to fight against him, or to make Knights of The Vale to fight on the wrong side from Ned. And thus in the end it will Everyone else against Lannisters. So eventually Stannis would have became King of 7K.

In the process of it all, either Ned would have, in gratitude for his saving, told Jon thruth about his parentage. Or that could have been done even earlier, by Howland Reed, while him and Jon were still on the way to save Ned. So Stannis is King, Jon knows that he's Targaryen, him and Ned go back to Winterfell, and someone else is King's new Hand. Then from Essos arrive Golden Company and fAegon. They kill Stannis. fAegon declare himself son of Rhaegar. Jon and Ned wouldn't have known, whether that is thruth or not, but they wouldn't have went into war against him, just because he killed Stannis. Also by that time, they would have already received from Lord Mormont, disturbing news about upcoming attack of Mance and his wildlings. So they would have been preparing to march north, and fight against wildlings. And thus they wouldn't have been interested at that time, into getting in that southern conflict against fAegon. Let him be King, untill they will deal with more important matters. Rumors about fAegon, becoming King of 7K, would have reached Dany, back in Essos. And she would have arrived to Westeros. Then her dragons would have burned fAegon, and Dany became Queen of 7K. 

By that time Jon, would have found out from wildlings about the Others, and that they could be killed by dragonglass. So he would have sailed from Eastwater to Dragonstone, and prior that contacted Dany. He would have came to her, to ask for dragonglass, and Dany's dragons would have recognized that he is a dragonblood. And he would have confirmed it, that he is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Dany needs a dragonblood husband, and Jon is 50% dragon. So she would have given him, as much dragonglass as he wanted, with condition that they will marry. And after the wedding, him and Dany on their dragons would have went north, and annihilated all wights and the Others, while they were on their honeymoon beyond The Wall.

So without Robb, Sansa, and Bran, getting into the plot's way, everything could have been resolved much sooner, and easier.

[zandru]

58 minutes ago, Megorova said:

As I wrote above - not necessary killing, would be enough to just have them out of the picture. Then this what could have happened:

[... details clipped for brevity ...]

Even better, it still would have been a good story! Only different.

[Kandrax]

9 hours ago, Sigella said:

That is open to debate and the WW are the greatest threat beside famine so I stand by my choice.

Well, there is no Night's King anymore, unless Jon or Stannis become him.

[Kandrax]

7 hours ago, zandru said:

You want to throw in a litter of puppies, too??

I'm with you on the Night King - he was a figure of legend out of the distant past. Much like "Azor Ahai", who had nothing to do with Westeros, or "The Last Hero", who did.

I want a blood and screams of the innocents.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1) Penny

2) Ygritte

3) Quentyn

When I'm given three kills, I target the most annoying people like a laser-guided missile.  

[Endymion I Targaryen]

1. Euron
2. Cersei
3. Littlefinger

They are the most dangerous right now in Westeros. They have caused much horror and there are more to come especially from Euron.

[Nowy Tends]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

 So instead of doing something to save Ned, Robb was just loitering around. If Jon was in Robb's shoes, then he would have went incognito to KL. On the way there, fetched Howland Reed and his people from Greywater Watch, and they would have secretly infiltrated KL, and stolen Ned out of the dungeons.

How do you enter KL incognito when you are the spitting image of Ned, and are accompanied by a bunch of weird looking crannogmen?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Ned Stark has a 15 years old bastard-son Jon Snow, who is actually his nephew, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. And Ned has only two children - 9 y.o. Arya and 3-4 y.o. Rickon. So whom will he leave in charge of Winterfell, if he will go to KL, to become Hand of King Robert? Either his wife Catelyn, or Jon Snow. But even if he will chose Cat, after Ned will be seized by Lannisters, and Robert will die, then the one who will be leading Northern armies, will be Jon, and not Cat.

That's a false premise right there. Jon is not in the line of succession, and it's unlikely that the Northern lords would have followed a 15 year old bastard to war. They had a hard enough time coming around to following Robb. 

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Instead he would have joined causes with Stannis.

That's utter speculation, we have no idea what Jon would have decided to do in the succession crisis.

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

After Ned was imprisoned, for a long time Robb was doing nothing to free his father. That's because he liked to feel himself Lord of Winterfell, and being in charge of people, and their House.

There's zero textual evidence for this. We don't know, as we don't have Robb's POV, but what evidence we do have is of a young man trying to do the right thing. And the idea that Robb was not interested in freeing his father goes against everything we know about the character.

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

So instead of doing something to save Ned, Robb was just loitering around. If Jon was in Robb's shoes, then he would have went incognito to KL. On the way there, fetched Howland Reed and his people from Greywater Watch, and they would have secretly infiltrated KL, and stolen Ned out of the dungeons. After that they would have sailed with Ned to Dragonstone, to Stannis. Ned and Jon both would have supported Stannis.

Ned with Northerners, Stannis with Stormlanders, and Edmure with Riverlanders, and Doran with Dornishmen, would have fought against Tywin in Westerlands, and Jaime and Joffrey in King's Landing. Ned, who thanks to Jon, would have still had Theon, would have made Ironborn to join them, and support Stannis. Even if Littlefinger and Lysa with Knights of The Vale, and Tyrells with their Reachmen, and Renly with half of Stormlanders would have supported Lannisters, that still would have been, 4 and a half Kingdoms against 3 and a half Kingdoms (North, Riverlands, Iron Islands, Dorne, half of Stormlands VS the other half of Stormlands, Westerlands, Vale, Reach). Though fairly fast the balance would have changed in Stannis' favour. Because Northerners and Dornishmen and Ironborn are much better fighters than Reachmen. So Tyrells, even if originally they would have supported either Lannisters or Renly, eventually they would have sided with Stannis, who is stronger (because of his supporters). Also if Stannis from the very beginning had support of The North and Riverlands, then it's unlikely that Renly would have rebelled against him. And also, if so many people would have supported Stannis, then it's unlikely that Littlefinger would have dared to fight against him, or to make Knights of The Vale to fight on the wrong side from Ned. And thus in the end it will Everyone else against Lannisters. So eventually Stannis would have became King of 7K.

In the process of it all, either Ned would have, in gratitude for his saving, told Jon thruth about his parentage. Or that could have been done even earlier, by Howland Reed, while him and Jon were still on the way to save Ned. So Stannis is King, Jon knows that he's Targaryen, him and Ned go back to Winterfell, and someone else is King's new Hand. Then from Essos arrive Golden Company and fAegon. They kill Stannis. fAegon declare himself son of Rhaegar. Jon and Ned wouldn't have known, whether that is thruth or not, but they wouldn't have went into war against him, just because he killed Stannis. Also by that time, they would have already received from Lord Mormont, disturbing news about upcoming attack of Mance and his wildlings. So they would have been preparing to march north, and fight against wildlings. And thus they wouldn't have been interested at that time, into getting in that southern conflict against fAegon. Let him be King, untill they will deal with more important matters. Rumors about fAegon, becoming King of 7K, would have reached Dany, back in Essos. And she would have arrived to Westeros. Then her dragons would have burned fAegon, and Dany became Queen of 7K. 

By that time Jon, would have found out from wildlings about the Others, and that they could be killed by dragonglass. So he would have sailed from Eastwater to Dragonstone, and prior that contacted Dany. He would have came to her, to ask for dragonglass, and Dany's dragons would have recognized that he is a dragonblood. And he would have confirmed it, that he is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Dany needs a dragonblood husband, and Jon is 50% dragon. So she would have given him, as much dragonglass as he wanted, with condition that they will marry. And after the wedding, him and Dany on their dragons would have went north, and annihilated all wights and the Others, while they were on their honeymoon beyond The Wall.

That's just fanfic. Where you produced that alternative plot from I have no idea, certainly not from anything in the books.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

How do you enter KL incognito when you are the spitting image of Ned, and are accompanied by a bunch of weird looking crannogmen?

Bloodraven would help. 

[zandru]

5 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Bloodraven would help. 

No one knows about any "Three Eyed Crow" because there is no Bran who communicates with him. Not like the guy can break into a 15yo unactivated-warg's brain. And Megorova's scenario doesn't seem to include any direwolves. (!!!)

To digress (yet again), we didn't see much indication that (non-pov) Robb in the original telling was mentally close to Grey Wind. He refused to heed the wolf's judgement at the end, resulting in his own end. Sansa, too, whose mind we too often get to view in excruciating detail, never once noted any particular mind-sharing with Lady. She was nearly as old as Robb. Only the youngest Starks: Arya, Bran, and Rickon, seemed to have wolf dreams, and the younger, the stronger the identification with their familiar beasts.

[Adam Yozza]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

No one knows about any "Three Eyed Crow" because there is no Bran who communicates with him. Not like the guy can break into a 15yo unactivated-warg's brain. And Megorova's scenario doesn't seem to include any direwolves. (!!!)

To digress (yet again), we didn't see much indication that (non-pov) Robb in the original telling was mentally close to Grey Wind. He refused to heed the wolf's judgement at the end, resulting in his own end. Sansa, too, whose mind we too often get to view in excruciating detail, never once noted any particular mind-sharing with Lady. She was nearly as old as Robb. Only the youngest Starks: Arya, Bran, and Rickon, seemed to have wolf dreams, and the younger, the stronger the identification with their familiar beasts.

The younger Stark's connection to their wolves formed later in the story though. Lady, I always assumed, died too early for that connection to form. As you said, Robb doesn't have any PoV's so we don't know if he did or didn't have warging capabilities (I would assume he did though).

And you don't take Jon into account with your 'only the youngest Stark's' statement. He's the second eldest and yet he definitely has a connection to Ghost.

[zandru]

8 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

And you don't take Jon into account with your 'only the youngest Stark's' statement. He's the second eldest and yet he definitely has a connection to Ghost.

Jon is the exception in many instances. And he's not a son of Eddard Stark (far as we've been able to deduce.)

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

20 minutes ago, zandru said:

we didn't see much indication that (non-pov) Robb in the original telling was mentally close to Grey Wind.

Grey Wind certainly showed affinity with him in battle, seemingly taking almost direct orders. Seeking out a hidden passage at the Golden Tooth, and Robb knowing what he was doing is one example. At Oxcross, he scattered the horses (hardly a firm example, but again suggests he knew what Robb wanted of him. Of course, he could have just been let loose among them). In ASOS, just before his death, Cat notices Robb looking a bit like Grey Wind, which is a feature of warging too I think.

I think he struggled with it, he says to Cat something along the lines of, "I'm not a wolf no matter what they say". I have a theory, which can't really be proven now, that Robb was disturbed by warging with, or just getting vibes off, Grey Wind during battle. Therefore he had a bit of a push and pull over it. 

[zandru]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Grey Wind certainly showed affinity

Thanks for this list of details! I recalled that they worked well together, and your theory that Robb was close enough to Grey Wind that it worried him is a good one. Jon Snow, too, was a little upset to learn he was what the wildlings called a "warg", although he often seemed to appreciate his intimate connection to Ghost and Ghost's keener senses.

Now Rickon, if not for Osha, will be growing up AS a wolf. She's a sensible, no-nonsense spearwife, though, and probably the best surrogate parent Rickon could hope for at this point.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, zandru said:

Jon Snow, too, was a little upset to learn he was what the wildlings called a "warg", although he often seemed to appreciate his intimate connection to Ghost and Ghost's keener senses.

Jon might be the best comparison, as Rickon seems young enough to be completely overtaken by Shaggy, while Bran seems like something of an exception.

Jon clearly has a close affinity with Ghost, but only really develops into warging later (but before Robb's death I think). We don't know, but it's easy to imagine that Robb was on a similar level of development in his relationship with Grey Wind. The difference is, while Jon and Ghost got into the occasional scrap together, Robb had Grey Wind in major battles (even storming the Crag! - sidenote, I always wondered how they got Grey Wind over the walls). Grey Wind seems to have become a bit of a killing machine, and Robb was clearly worried that he was becoming dangerous. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, zandru said:

She's a sensible, no-nonsense spearwife, though, and probably the best surrogate parent Rickon could hope for at this point.

I like Osha, but I can think of several better candidates for motherhood than her...

[Sigella]

7 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Well, there is no Night's King anymore, unless Jon or Stannis become him.

Well we'll see. Hopefully.

[Megorova]

20 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

And you don't take Jon into account with your 'only the youngest Stark's' statement. He's the second eldest and yet he definitely has a connection to Ghost.

If Robb, Sansa, and Bran were out of the picture, then there's no need for Jon to connect with Ghost. The main purpose of Ghost is to save Jon, after he was attacked. But if Jon is the only Ned's child, close to adulthood, then everything would have been different.

Ned has Jon, and for another 5 or so years after their wedding, Cat has no children. So there was nothing for her to keep herself busy with, so eventually she would have became the one, who took care of little Jon. If there's no Robb, then there's no main reason why Cat hated Jon so much - because she saw him only as Robb's rival. But if there was no Robb, and for a few years after their wedding, Cat didn't gave a child to Ned, then instead, to gain Ned's love, and gratitude, and sympathy, she would have, at least pretended, that she cares about Jon. But eventually she would have started to really care about him, because she was a young married woman, that got married years ago, but still doesn't have her own children, and Jon was a cute and sweet child. How can she not love him, if there's no Robb near her, to blind her?

So here comes King Robert, and takes Ned away to King's Landing. Will Ned allow Jon to go to Night's Watch, if there's no Robb in the picture? No, he won't. Will Cat let Jon to go to Night's Watch, if she doesn't hate him, because there's no Robb? No, she won't. Furthermore, if Ned had only 9 y.o. daughter, and 4 y.o. son, only one son, and Jon, who will become an adult in a year or so, then there's no reason for Ned, not to ask King Robert to legitimize Jon as a Stark.

So Jon Stark is left in charge of Winterfell, after Ned went away. So Jon never went to join Night's Watch. Jon Stark wouldn't be attacked by people from Night's Watch. And thus, there's no need for him to connect with Ghost. Instead he would have connected with Dany's dragons.