Football: 3rd Season Meltdown

[Consigliere]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

We're getting Willian. I don't mind him as a player but another workhorse midfielder/winger is the last thing we need surely?

You've just described the perfect Mourinho type player. Although I haven't seen anyone remotely reliable report this. A few have reported that we are trying for Maguire as an alternative to Alderweireld. 

 

37 minutes ago, Soylent Brown said:

A lot of money for a ~30 year old. And won't that mean less minutes for the likes of Rashford and Martial too?

Martial wants out and reliable journalists have reported that United are willing to let him leave for the right price. It's just that nobody wants to actually pay big money for him. United are going to trigger his option for an additional year so he has two years left on his contract. Clubs would probably be able to get him for a cut price in a year.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

Martial wants out and reliable journalists have reported that United are willing to let him leave for the right price. It's just that nobody wants to actually pay big money for him. United are going to trigger his option for an additional year so he has two years left on his contract. Clubs would probably be able to get him for a cut price in a year.

Sounds like pretty accurate describtion of the Martial situation, which must kinda suck for him. As it sounds like another lost year for him at United. But he was always more of a van Gaal player, whose one big upside has always been talent development. While Mourinho has always prefered to bring in experienced players who have already completed their development. 

In other news. Dortmund reportedly had a change of hearts regarding Pulisic. They are rumoredly willing to sell at the right price, which they consider to be 70m+ €. I don't think anybody is willing to spend that much on him, but with EPL money everything's possible, I guess. And if you consider him as an asset for marketing purposes in the States, there actually might be a club out there willing to spend. 

2 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

i assume this means Hazard will definitely stay.  I doubt RM were really ready to pay 200m for him.  Hazard doesn’t seem like the sort to go on strike but he must be pretty disappointed if he loses the chance to move to a superclub in his prime.  He may just see out his contract now. 

 

That's also the latest development I read, rumoredly they were willing to cough up 170m € for Hazard. But now their interest has apparently cooled down. 

[Iskaral Pust]

19 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

In other news. Dortmund reportedly had a change of hearts regarding Pulisic. They are rumoredly willing to sell at the right price, which they consider to be 70m+ €. I don't think anybody is willing to spend that much on him, but with EPL money everything's possible, I guess. And if you consider him as an asset for marketing purposes in the States, there actually might be a club out there willing to spend. 

I expect FSG would be willing to pay a high price to bring him to Liverpool.  His marketing value is enormous.  At the recent Liverpool vs Dortmund preseason match there more Pulisic fans than Liverpool fans.  Liverpool bid 11m for him two years ago when he was only 17 and a riskier prospect; that was before transfer prices exploded. 

I expect other clubs with global marketing potential can do that math too, but PL especially since that seems to have the best TV presence in the US. 

From Dortmund’s point of view, he just had a not-great season and is stalling on a new contract with two years to go.  It might look like a good time to cash in.  They probably won’t capture most of his marketing value.

[Mark Antony]

Holy fuck Shaqiri

edit: https://streamja.com/yakZ

[Iskaral Pust]

The Liverpool-United game was a decent watch, even if it’s frustrating how a patched-together team will get snagged by breakdowns in the attacking move.  You just know the fluency could be better. 

Liverpool had VVD, Moreno, Klavan, Fabinho, Milner, Lallana, Sane, Salah and kids in their starting line-up while United had Bailly, Darmian, Herrera, McTominay, Sanchez, Mata, Martial and kids in theirs (Smalling was withdrawn at the last minute).  So perhaps 3-4 genuine starters each, some bench back-ups and promising kids on either side.  It was played at a good pace and felt pretty competitive in the tackles, so picking up a gear as the season gets closer.  And it helps that the pitch was much better than Liverpool had against City, even if it seemed to give a slow bounce to long passes over the top. 

Liverpool made a lot more subs and earlier, showing some more squad availability but eventually throwing on a lot of kids.  Utd kept some players on for a full game, like Bailly, McTominay, Pereira, F-M and Darmian, while keeping the likes of Sanchez and Herrera on for 80 minutes and Mata on for 70 minutes.  Obviously a different approach to Liverpool who changed a lot at half time and the remainder at 64 minutes.  No injuries, and good fitness and sharpness in both sides.  Surprising that Shaw didn’t make an appearance from the bench though.

The main takeaway was the contrast in style.  Liverpool dominated possession & territory and took all of the initiative, while Utd sat in a low block with eight outfield players (was that a 3-5-2?) within 10 vertical yards starting from the edge of their own box.  That is incredibly pessimistic and reactive play for a pre-season friendly.  Utd only looked for quick counter long balls over the top to isolated forwards and ended up creating nothing at all from open play in the entire game.  Pereira hit a screamer of a free-kick to keep it level in the first half, but it’s pretty shameful that they couldn’t create anything at all.  The Mourinho handbrake again.

Liverpool had Sane and Salah look sharp again in the first half but denied by a couple of decent saves and blocks.  Lallana and Solanke were busy but not at the same level as the other two, which stopped a lot of chances from developing.  Shaqiri and Sturridge looked sharp in the second half — both scored, including a peach of a bicycle kick by Shaqiri — and youngsters like Woodburn, Camacho, Grujic, Jones, Phillips, Chirivella and Ojo (in that descending order) looked confident and sharp and maintained control of the game in the second half as we ran up the score.

The youth talent on display was quite good, as it was for City the other night.  I know it’s difficult for them to make the step up but there was plenty of technical ability, athleticism, game awareness, etc.

An entertaining game for 105,000 fans attending the game live, but Liverpool fans will be far happier with what their team was about, regardless of the result.

Edit to add: Keita was missing again with a sore neck but it felt very noticeable that Lallana is nowhere close to him at the moment.  Lallana presses well and has nice technical ball control but he can be so bad at delaying play with too many turns and flicks.  Keita wins the ball back even better and he is so direct at picking out a great pass behind or driving forward with the ball. 

[Mexal]

I mostly like what I've seen from Arsenal so far. The tactics on how they build from the back and the focus on pressing has translated decently. They still have issues defensively though.

[Iskaral Pust]

2 hours ago, Mexal said:

I mostly like what I've seen from Arsenal so far. The tactics on how they build from the back and the focus on pressing has translated decently. They still have issues defensively though.

That unfamiliar tingling sensation is called hope.  I know it’s been a while for Arsenal fans. 

I really think Arsenal’s fresh attackers — Laca, Auba and Mkhi with no WC and Ozil home early — could give them an early head start.  With the first two games against City and Chelsea, that’s favorable timing if they are fresher.  

[Jeor]

2 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I really think Arsenal’s fresh attackers — Laca, Auba and Mkhi with no WC and Ozil home early — could give them an early head start.  With the first two games against City and Chelsea, that’s favorable timing if they are fresher.  

Yes, our attackers will be fresh, which is good. But our defence is still crap and with Koscielny out long-term we're looking at a CB partnership of Mustafi and Sokatris (new buy) so I don't think we're completely sorted. Hopefully Torreira offers more of a midfield shield than we've had in the past.

[Jordan La Cabra]

21 hours ago, polishgenius said:

We're getting Willian. I don't mind him as a player but another workhorse midfielder/winger is the last thing we need surely?

Would you consider him a ‘workhourse’? Having watched him at Chelsea for 5 seasons, I’m not sure I would. There have been spells through his Chelsea career that he has worked hard, but I wouldn’t say it’s consistent enough to consider him a workhorse, or even as a strong presser of the ball. 

[Jeor]

Mourinho grousing about transfers again won't endear him to the United hierarchy. He's making a worrying start to that 3rd season of his - there's something to be said for a siege mentality that motivates the club, but I don't think this is it. I guess he's just trying to manage expectations and then hope he can get some good results and this tetchy off season will be quickly forgotten.

[Consigliere]

10 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

The main takeaway was the contrast in style.  Liverpool dominated possession & territory and took all of the initiative, while Utd sat in a low block with eight outfield players (was that a 3-5-2?) within 10 vertical yards starting from the edge of their own box.  That is incredibly pessimistic and reactive play for a pre-season friendly.  Utd only looked for quick counter long balls over the top to isolated forwards and ended up creating nothing at all from open play in the entire game.  Pereira hit a screamer of a free-kick to keep it level in the first half, but it’s pretty shameful that they couldn’t create anything at all.  The Mourinho handbrake again.

This is pretty much typical Mourinho tactics whenever he comes up against any good side (and people wonder why Lukaku's scoring record against the top 6 is poor. You could stick a prime Suarez up there and he'd struggle too). It being preseason wouldn't make any difference to him. What made these tactics even worse is that he had the side playing long balls to Mata and Sanchez up top which makes no sense at all. Don't expect anything different in our last two preseason games (Real Madrid and Bayern) - it will be hoofball with an 8-0-1-1 formation.

 

33 minutes ago, Jeor said:

Mourinho grousing about transfers again won't endear him to the United hierarchy. He's making a worrying start to that 3rd season of his - there's something to be said for a siege mentality that motivates the club, but I don't think this is it. I guess he's just trying to manage expectations and then hope he can get some good results and this tetchy off season will be quickly forgotten.

Mourinho has been moaning since before preseason even started. Nearly every single thing coming out of his mouth has had a negative spin on it. That can't be good for squad morale when your manager is wallowing in negativity and displaying a defeatist attitude before the season has even started. Contrast that to other managers in a similar position with a number of players missing preseason due to the WC. 

[Mexal]

8 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

That unfamiliar tingling sensation is called hope.  I know it’s been a while for Arsenal fans. 

I really think Arsenal’s fresh attackers — Laca, Auba and Mkhi with no WC and Ozil home early — could give them an early head start.  With the first two games against City and Chelsea, that’s favorable timing if they are fresher.  

I'm definitely looking forward to the start of the season. It will be interesting to see what Emery does with Laca and Auba. We were so dangerous yesterday against PSG with Auba playing through the middle rather than being out on the wing.

2 hours ago, Consigliere said:

Mourinho has been moaning since before preseason even started. Nearly every single thing coming out of his mouth has had a negative spin on it. That can't be good for squad morale when your manager is wallowing in negativity and displaying a defeatist attitude before the season has even started. Contrast that to other managers in a similar position with a number of players missing preseason due to the WC. 

It's getting near the time when Mourinho gets fired for destroying the squad's morale so this seems in line. He's such a miserable man.

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Jeor said:

Mourinho grousing about transfers again won't endear him to the United hierarchy. He's making a worrying start to that 3rd season of his - there's something to be said for a siege mentality that motivates the club, but I don't think this is it. I guess he's just trying to manage expectations and then hope he can get some good results and this tetchy off season will be quickly forgotten.

Mourinho hasn't done the 'siege mentality' bit for quite a while now. It's never 'us against the world' any more. It's 'me against everyone'. And he goes into it whenever he fails or thinks he's about to fail, so quite often.

ETA - this is pretty relevant:

https://www.football365.com/news/manchester-united-liverpool-manchester-city-klopp-mourinho-and-guardiola-on-young-players-the-difference

[Iskaral Pust]

I know this is an unusual angle but my own professional experience makes me wonder what the Utd board are thinking of this.  Woodward seems ineffectual and smitten with galacticos, there is no DoF, and Mourinho — just handed a contract extension — is a self-interested toxic presence with a short term mentality.  He has improved results but he’s gradually losing the fans.  And he has the unenviable task of competing against peak City. 

Is it enough for them to get re-established in the top 4 and see if Pep slips and creates a window to sneak a title one year ground out with a parked bus and 1-0 wins?  What about the Utd brand in the meantime?  Especially as City, Liverpool, Spurs are getting all the positive attention for attacking football, and now Chelsea and Arsenal have added managers with that style too.  Just Utd are getting left behind in a generational shift (last time they led the generational shift).  The club is still very profitable but it sure is spending a lot to get dull football.  The fans are discontent. 

If I were in their shoes, I think I’d hold my nose and keep Mourinho for now, but work on either replacing Woodward or at least adding a DoF first.  Then I’d focus on targeting the right long term manager and plan the window of opportunity to get them.  If Mourinho is a short-termer then at least use that to your benefit and get the long term set up right. 

[Consigliere]

Mourinho would never work with a DoF (unless that DoF is his puppet) because he likes to be in complete control. Even at Real Madrid he had issues with Valdano which led to Valdano being sacked. United are still stuck in the Fergie era way of doing things. A DoF was not needed with a long term and successful manager like SAF but now managers are only going to stick around for maybe 3-4 years and the club do need a team above the manager to look after the medium to long term planning on the football side of things. 

Woodward should absolutely not be sacked as he's been brilliant on the business side of things and has generally managed to sign whoever LVG and Mourinho wanted. Even when Moyes was in charge the major complaint was Moyes's indecisiveness and word coming out of the club during that time was that the scouting department had identified a number of players but Moyes simply couldn't make up his mind which led to us signing Fellaini for £6m more that what we would have paid a month earlier and a failed bid for Coentrao both on deadline day.

Adding a Sporting Director/DoF to assist on the football side of things would make more sense. The problem at United right now is that too much power is given to the manager who has complete control over all transfers which has led to a scattergun transfer policy due to the turnover of managers post Fergie.

ETA. Also, Woodward might like the commercial benefit of 'galacticos' but he doesn't even pick the transfer targets - this has been confirmed many times. The manager hands him a list of players including alternatives and he works off of that within a budget approved by the Glazers. 

[Iskaral Pust]

So Mourinho might not like a DoF but since he’s a short-termer anyway and unlikely to quit abruptly on his contract, just go over his head and establish a DoF now and start getting the infrastructure right.  I agree that Woodward has been good about expanding corporate sponsors and backing the various managers on whatever they’ve asked, but this gulf between the team manager and the corporate CEO has to be bridged.  The problem with giving Mourinho total control is that he only cares about the trophies he will win, not what comes after or how the fans feel during or after.  You need someone who represents the club, which is not the same as the corporation.  The club is actually the collective of the fans.  That’s the definition of a club as an organization, but a long time ago football clubs became privately owned (linked to ownership of the grounds) and then around 20 years ago became increasingly corporate.

Liverpool fans used to mock Michael Edwards for his role on the transfer committee with Rodgers, but since we pushed out Rodgers and Ian Ayre (former CEO), Michael Edwards has played a blinder as DoF since he got that position in early 2016 and Peter Moore has been quietly very effective as CEO. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yes, but with Klopp Liverpool also has a manager who actually wants to work with a DoF or Sporting Director, as that's the system he grew up with in Germany and he doesn't want/need to be in charge of everything and appreciates the time it frees up for him to do the core business of working with the squad.

In comparisson to what consigliere described as Mourinho's/United's way of doing things, afaik Liverpool's approach under Klopp is a bit different. Klopp gives a profile for the kind of player he wants (e.g. a pacey winger, with a good technique who can provide some scoring, and has a good overall physique). Then the scouting department goes to work. Some time later the head scout and DoF meet with Klopp and provide a list of names (probably with some video material), then they discuss the names (Klopp of course has the final say).

[Iskaral Pust]

I agree, and it helps that Klopp himself has a long term mindset and sees his responsibility to contribute to the club beyond his tenure.  

I’m not saying that Mourinho will suddenly change.  But since you are yoked to a short term manager right now, then treat him like a short term manager and put in place the infrastructure he dislikes that will benefit the club after he leaves.  What’s he going to do, complain even more in the press conferences?  Quit and save you the huge severance package for eventually firing him?

Why allow your short term manager to decide what long term infrastructure to use?  Just hold onto the short term manager until your DoF is in place and has identified the right long term manager.  Mourinho must be getting close to implosion soon.  The spiral of negativity is accelerating toward a chain reaction.  Better to use the remaining time to put in place a better system and take back the initiative. 

[Consigliere]

18 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

 I’m not saying that Mourinho will suddenly change.  But since you are yoked to a short term manager right now, then treat him like a short term manager and put in place the infrastructure he dislikes that will benefit the club after he leaves.  What’s he going to do, complain even more in the press conferences?  Quit and save you the huge severance package for eventually firing him?

Why allow your short term manager to decide what long term infrastructure to use?  Just hold onto the short term manager until your DoF is in place and has identified the right long term manager.  Mourinho must be getting close to implosion soon.  The spiral of negativity is accelerating toward a chain reaction.  Better to use the remaining time to put in place a better system and take back the initiative. 

Thing is, I'm not so sure that United's board view Mourinho as a short termer despite his managerial record. Even if they do, United seem determined to hold onto the current structure which has served the club well for a long time (classic resistance to change) so I don't believe that the appointment of a DoF/Sporting Director is even on the agenda.

This structure does have a downside of a possible disconnect between manager and CEO as you've mentioned but having complete control over transfers, getting to pick your targets rather than just provide a profile and knowing that players aren't going to be sold without your permission would be an attractive proposition for many managers.

I'd say that Mourinho as manager is a much bigger problem that not having a DoF. As you said, Mourinho doesn't care about the future of the club or fans. He'd gladly leave us with a bunch of declining players in their 30s on big contracts with little to no resale value and very difficult to offload due to wages so long as those players helped him win a few trophies to fluff up his CV for his next job. A manager with a more long term mindset should work fine under the current structure. 

[l2 0 5 5]

One week out from the Community Shield against City and I feel like a 6.8 out of 10 in regards to confidence this year. Jorginho has had a nice first impression, and I think the guy was a steal when coming over with Sarri. WIll be interesting to see how he works with Kante in the midfield as they play a similar role. Good problem to have imo. Third guy in the midfield is a question mark right now with Cesc and Barkley getting some time in the first two preseason games. As noted before on here, I think Barkley came onto the team last year at a rough time for both Chelsea and Barkley. I think he'll get a solid chance this year. Who's the odd men out? I think Bakayoko and Drinkwater will find themselves on the outside looking in. Baka has been pretty much shit since coming over from Monaco and not sure he'll fit in Sarri's system, and Drinkwater doesn't have any value that would edge out any of the other previously mentioned players. Would rather see RLC get a shot.

As for the guys in the back, Cahill and Luiz should be on the bench with the younger guys getting a shot. You saw this trend start last year. Christensen and Rudiger would be my first choice for CB with Ampadu getting more play time this year as he's proven himself to be an impressive Young Buck (future Big Buck). No more wing backs so we'll see how Alonso and Moses adapt to a back 4. I'd put Azpi and Alonso at the fullback spot to start the year. I think Azpi will be fine but Alonso may have some hard times. We're now in the hunt for Rugani and Caldara from Juve so I welcome that. Either or would be a great addition. 

As for the forwards, not sure if we're still in for Leon Bailey, but that would be awesome, especially if Willian is leaving. Which I'm cool with, by the way, if MU want to splash over 60m on him. 30 years old, with younger talent coming along, I'd sell him. Hudson-Odoi has been impressive thus far. Only 17 like Ampadu, just hope we give him a solid chance to get game time. I'm a fan. We still have Pedro which is good depth/leadership, but we need to get younger on the wing. Now the big question is, what's up with the striker spot? With all the hype and money on Morata, would hate to not give him a chance this season. I think he'll be the first choice going forward, unless/until he proves ineffective like he did last year from November onwards. Giroud to Marseille rumors ongoing. That's fine with me. I like the guy a lot, seems like a class act and a leader, but he's on the wrong side of 30 and we have younger guys that need an opportunity. Need to see what Tammy can do, and there's also a guy named Michy out there that I've been tough on in the past, but can't ignore his small stint with Dortmund. 

Hope we hold onto Hazard, looking that way as we speak, but never know. I personally cannot stand Courtois. Seems like a full grown man-child. He can piss off. 

Whew, I'm done.