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Small Questions v. 10106

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8 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I have watched the video, but I did not catch anything about 50.000 people for Gulltown.

The description of the cities compared to each other as stated in the article you have linked I cannot find anywhere.

Fire and Blood states the following:

No one planned King's Landing. lt simply grew… but it grew quickly. At Aegon's first coronation, it was still a village squatting beneath a motte-and-bailey castle. By his second, it was already a thriving town of several thousand souls. By 10 AC, it was a true city, almost as large as Gulltown or White Harbor. By 25 AC, it had outgrown both to become the third most populous city in the realm, surpassed only by Lannisport and Oldtown.

Which tells us that in 10 AC, King's Landing was almost of the same size as Gulltown and White Harbor, and in 25 AC, it was the third most populous city. So, in 25 AC, the order was (largest to smallest) Oldtown, Lannisport, King's Landing, and Gulltown and White Harbor (the latter two in an unspecified order at the time).

The World of Ice and Fire tells us that White Harbor is (currently) the smallest city of the Seven Kingdoms, and the only city in the North. So at least we know that Gulltown has a larger population than White Harbor in 300 AC.

Archmaesters can and do quibble about the numbers, but most agree that the population of Westeros north of Dorne doubled during the Conciliator's reign, whilst the population of King's Landing increased fourfold. Lannisport, Gulltown, Duskendale, and White Harbor grew as well, though not to the same extent. 

 

We also know from Fire and Blood that, while King's Landing was the third most populous city in 25 AC, and had 100.000 people living in it in 33 AC, during the reign of Jaehaerys I (48 AC - 103 AC), its population increased fourfold. It is not odd to think that the city grew further after Jaehaerys's reign, keeping in mind the peaceful reigns that followed (most notably the reign of Viserys I, which was considered "the most prosperous era in the history of the Seven Kingdoms", the reign of Aerys II, and the reign of Robert I). Of course, that would also have been balanced by losses following the Shivers (more severely than Oldtown, which lost a quarter of its people) and later the Winter Fever (133 AC, one fifth of the population) and the Great Spring Sickness (King's Landing hit hardest, where the sickness took 40% of the population).

Nevertheless, an increase from 400.000 to ~500.000 people in 200 years following multiple prosperous reigns does not seem that odd, I'd say. It would be far stranger if there was no further increase, especially considering that it had grown to 400.000 people within a hundred years.

 

The population of Gulltown was speculated about that video. It came from the number of population and the army size. To that population most likely matches the population of Gulltown being 50000. 

I would gladly find you that interview, but I am currently at university.

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The squishers mentioned by Nimble Dick Crabb (may his soul rest in peace) to Brienne in Feast that supposedly inhabit the regions of Crackclaw point resemble Swamp creatures from Witcher 3. 

From a distance squishers appear human, but according to legend their heads are larger than those of men and they have scales instead of hair. They have webbing between their fingers and toes, while their mouths have rows of green, needle-like teeth. A squisher's belly is white like that of a fish. Their name comes from the squish-squish sound made when they move on their webbed feet.

Any more info? 

Like are they real for instance? Like the wights (dismissed by many as snarks and grumpkins) 

Relation to Borells and Deep Ones? 

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8 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen On the wiki page for the Westerosi monarchs, there's a list of all monarchs at the end of the page.  Do you know why Rhaenyra isn't listed as one of the monarchs?  :idea:

(Kudos to Clint of The Learned Hand Podcast for bringing this to my attention.) 

 

Because Westerosi history recognizes it as the reign of Aegon II, with Rhaenyra as a rival claimant. 

The wiki here follows the list of monarchs in the AGOT appendix and the World of Ice and Fire.

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I'm currently paying some idle mind to colors, the ones worn by Jaime Lannister especially. As I am sure there has been stuff on similar things (the colors and how George uses them) in the past, would anyone have something they'd care to link?

Edited by TsarGrey

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17 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen On the wiki page for the Westerosi monarchs, there's a list of all monarchs at the end of the page.  Do you know why Rhaenyra isn't listed as one of the monarchs?  :idea:

(Kudos to Clint of The Learned Hand Podcast for bringing this to my attention.) 

 

Because she lost the war... While she did spend six months on the Iron Throne, she ran and tried to escape into exile.

The first thing Aegon II did was declare her never to have been queen and demanding she not be referred to as such.

Quote

“Rhaenyra was never a queen,” the king declared, insisting that henceforth, in all chronicles and court records, his half sister be referred to only as “princess,” the title of queen being reserved only for his mother Alicent and his late wife and sister Helaena, the “true queens.” And so it was decreed.

-The Princess and the Queen

 

Edited by Mourning Star

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8 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

The first thing Aegon II did was declare her never to have been queen and demanding she not be referred to as such.

What is interesting is that this part did not make into F&B, the final version of TPATQ. The Westerosi do not consider Rhaenyra a legit queen though.

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3 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

What is interesting is that this part did not make into F&B, the final version of TPATQ. The Westerosi do not consider Rhaenyra a legit queen though.

It's not so much the final version as a new thing that covers the same material, imo... but this quote is also the reason the story is called The Princes and the Queen. 

Edited by Mourning Star

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Just now, Mourning Star said:

It's not so much the final version as a new thing that covers the same material, imo

Do not think so. The Sons of the Dragon, The Rogue Prince and The Princess and the Queen are all drafts of the material GRRM put into F&B (in-world all of these are written by Gyldayn). Anything only mentioned in the history novellas might not be canon anymore.

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Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

Do not think so. The Sons of the Dragon, The Rogue Prince and The Princess and the Queen are all drafts of the material GRRM put into F&B (in-world all of these are written by Gyldayn). Anything only mentioned in the history novellas might not be canon anymore.

I tend to consider them more cannon than the semi cannon f&b and woiaf but to each their own.

Nothing suggests this detail has changed.

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1 minute ago, Mourning Star said:

I tend to consider them more cannon than the semi cannon f&b and woiaf.

Sorry, but that does not make any sense. F&B was written by GRRM himself. So it is not semi-canon. These novellas were drafts from the Targaryen material for the Worldbook. At some point GRRM stopped working on it because it would not fit into the Worldbook for reasons of space. When he was asked to contribute to some anthologies, he delivered some stuff from the material. He only started working on the material again when he edited it for F&B. Then he corrected errors and changed a few lines. Why would he change these lines if not because he no longer wanted to go with them? To consider the drafts more canon than the final text does not seem reasonable to me.

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10 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Sorry, but that does not make any sense. F&B was written by GRRM himself. So it is not semi-canon. These novellas were drafts from the Targaryen material for the Worldbook. At some point GRRM stopped working on it because it would not fit into the Worldbook for reasons of space. When he was asked to contribute to some anthologies, he delivered some stuff from the material. He only started working on the material again when he edited it for F&B. Then he corrected errors and changed a few lines. Why would he change these lines if not because he no longer wanted to go with them? To consider the drafts more canon than the final text does not seem reasonable to me.

Maybe I should have been clearer... The Princess and The Queen is a story written and published by GRRM set in Westeros. It's cannon.

Fire and Blood and The World of Ice and Fire are seudo histories produced with assistance and are thus less reliable since much of it has been interpreted/written by intermediaries. 

If you want to debate an author's authority to retroactively change their own artwork and the nature of cannon, or what the definition of cannon is, that's cool, but it won't be with me. Plenty of people agree with both sides of that debate. Do with it all what you will.

Edited by Mourning Star

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6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Because she lost the war... While she did spend six months on the Iron Throne, she ran and tried to escape into exile.

The first thing Aegon II did was declare her never to have been queen and demanding she not be referred to as such.

 

Essentially, Aegon ordered that the fact (fact, as Rhaenyra was named the heir of a legitimate monarch and sat on the throne) be concealed in histories and discussions henceforth.  Rhaenyra truly had been queen at one point.

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15 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Essentially, Aegon ordered that the fact (fact, as Rhaenyra was named the heir of a legitimate monarch and sat on the throne) be concealed in histories and discussions henceforth.  Rhaenyra truly had been queen at one point.

While I suppose at the end of the day it is in large part, if not entirely, semantics... I think it's very hard to say she had been a "true" queen when the war hadn't ended, the lords hadn't knelt, she didn't really rule the realm, and the histories don't record her as a monarch.

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3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

While I suppose at the end of the day it is in large part, if not entirely, semantics... I think it's very hard to say she had been a "true" queen when the war hadn't ended, the lords hadn't knelt, she didn't really rule the realm, and the histories don't record her as a monarch.

But Aegon II never ruled Iron Islands, North or Vale and so by that logic he should not be recognized as a monarch either.

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19 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

But Aegon II never ruled Iron Islands, North or Vale and so by that logic he should not be recognized as a monarch either.

And had a Monarch after him declared he was never King that probably would have been the case as well.

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I've always considered the real reason Rhaenyra is not considered a Queen is simply that the politics of Westeros after the Dance was such that many of the Lords of the Realm's views on female monarchs didn't permit her inclusion as a monarch because of the rather important precedent it would set. Most of the male nobility don't want their preference for male inheritors of their power and prerogatives messed with. Can't have those scary women upsetting the "natural" order of things. Damn the reality that Rhaenyra was crowned and ruled from the Iron Throne. She can give birth to monarchs, but she can't be counted as one in her own right, or things might get out of control. Rhaenyra's descendants acquiesce to her posthumous slight is in exchange for real power.

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"How is it you come by a Pentoshi ship?" asked Davos. "Have you gone pirate again, my lord?" He set his empty cup aside.

"Vile calumny. Who has suffered more from pirates than Salladhor Saan? I ask only what is due me. Much gold is owed, oh yes, but I am not without reason, so in place of coin I have taken a handsome parchment, very crisp. It bears the name and seal of Lord Alester Florent, the Hand of the King. I am made Lord of Blackwater Bay, and no vessel may be crossing my lordly waters without my lordly leave, no. And when these outlaws are trying to steal past me in the night to avoid my lawful duties and customs, why, they are no better than smugglers, so I am well within my rights to seize them." 

Any evidence that Salladhor Saan (or anyone else) is extracting fees or taxes from ships entering or exiting Blackwater Bay?  If I remember correctly, this never comes up again.  

(Hint: I think Saan was bribed by Illyrio.)

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8 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Any evidence that Salladhor Saan (or anyone else) is extracting fees or taxes from ships entering or exiting Blackwater Bay?  If I remember correctly, this never comes up again.

How active warships of Vale are in that area? Or there is a chance that bc Stannis failed in his invasion men of Vale are trying to prove their loyalty to the Iron Throne.

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9 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

How active warships of Vale are in that area? Or there is a chance that bc Stannis failed in his invasion men of Vale are trying to prove their loyalty to the Iron Throne.

I don't recall there being any Valemen military ships in Blackwater Bay, or anywhere else for that matter.

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