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TheDrWho

If Joffrey had black hair and was Robert's son would anything have changed

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I keep playing things over in my head and I feel like if Joffrey was truly Robert's son Ned Stark would have made up some bullshit to disinherit him from the throne and give the Iron Throne to Stannis. I know this doesn't play with the honorable view of Ned Stark that everyone had but looking at Joffrey I could not in good conscious give the Iron Throne to him when he would just be a puppet of his mother and her a puppet of her father. It occurs to me that if Joffrey were a little older and a little more independent then Ned would have no problem supporting his claim but the fact was Joffrey was a boy who would be a puppet in his grandfathers hands. I feel that Ned understood that Stannis would not stand for a Lannister being King while he was alive and that Stannis had a very strong claim.  So as to not throw the realm into civil war again I think that Ned would with very little apprehension give the throne to Joffrey. I think Ned understood that the questionable succession that he tried to force would be challenged on the battlefield by the Lannisters but I don't think he anticipated Renly dividing house Barantheon and I don't think he envisioned Rob Stark declaring himself King in the North.

I know this doesn't need to be said but fuck Renly Baratheon he more than any other individual threw the realm into chaos. If Renly had stood by his brother theree would have been no question as to which house the Iron Throne would have gone to. Fuck Renly I hope he is being tortured in hell.

 

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1 hour ago, TheDrWho said:

I keep playing things over in my head and I feel like if Joffrey was truly Robert's son Ned Stark would have made up some bullshit to disinherit him from the throne and give the Iron Throne to Stannis. I know this doesn't play with the honorable view of Ned Stark that everyone had but looking at Joffrey I could not in good conscious give the Iron Throne to him when he would just be a puppet of his mother and her a puppet of her father. It occurs to me that if Joffrey were a little older and a little more independent then Ned would have no problem supporting his claim but the fact was Joffrey was a boy who would be a puppet in his grandfathers hands. I feel that Ned understood that Stannis would not stand for a Lannister being King while he was alive and that Stannis had a very strong claim.  So as to not throw the realm into civil war again I think that Ned would with very little apprehension give the throne to Joffrey. I think Ned understood that the questionable succession that he tried to force would be challenged on the battlefield by the Lannisters but I don't think he anticipated Renly dividing house Barantheon and I don't think he envisioned Rob Stark declaring himself King in the North.

I know this doesn't need to be said but fuck Renly Baratheon he more than any other individual threw the realm into chaos. If Renly had stood by his brother theree would have been no question as to which house the Iron Throne would have gone to. Fuck Renly I hope he is being tortured in hell.

 

There would have been hard feelings but I do not think it would escalate the same way (nor to the same extent) as it did.

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If Joff had brown hair Jon Arryn wouldn't have been murdered, because there would have been nothing for him to have pried into. Ned thusly would not have been asked to Hand. The Starks would not have left Winterfell and we wouldn't have a story.

That incest is important!!

Not to say it wouldn't all have ended the same anyway - but I think not, at all.

It would be a totally different story, potentially no war of the 5 kings etc.

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The more interesting question would be what would have happened if Cersei's children looked the way they did and they still were Robert's children. What would have Stannis done then (Renly didn't give a rat's ass about the parentage of his brother's children)? All the evidence he has is his belief based on looks and his conspiracy theory based on a history book. Cersei never told him what she told Ned.

Cersei could have fucked Jaime without actually making him the father of her children. That's all possible. And since FaB we also know that the Baratheon seed isn't that strong, after all. Princess Rhaenys inherited the black hair of her Baratheon mother, but her children, Laena and Laenor Velaryon, had the silver-gold hair and the purple eyes (Rhaenys also had the purple eyes) of true Velaryons. If second generation Baratheons don't have to have the Baratheon dark hair and can instead inherit the fair hair of their Velaryon father whose bloodline was not exactly kept pure for the last century or so, then any argument made on that stupid book Jon, Stannis, and Ned read is really built on sand.

But, certainly, if Ned had known Joffrey was Robert's son (regardless of his looks) he would have backed him - and in that sense, Cersei, too, although he would have likely prevented her from playing an active part in the Regency government. Ned may have been concerned about Joff's personality, but his personality and values seem to have been far too rigid to actually cite character flaws as a reason to withhold the throne from the son of his best friend and king, a son who had been anointed the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and who should succeed to the throne by all the laws and customs of the land.

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I'm not sure, I think Ned would not have moved against Robert's trueborn son, but I also don't think he would simply let everything lie with the Lannisters when he thinks that they tried to kill Bran.

I this scenario I honestly think it's much more likely he takes Renly up on his original offer to take Joffery in hand by force, but Ned is truly not a great player of the game, the outcome would probably be the same in the end, sadly.

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If Joffrey was Robert's son then the whole story would be changed.

  1. Jon Arryn would still be alive, so there would be no need for Eddard to go South to become Hand of the King.
  2. Stannis wouldn't try to usurp Robert's legitimate heir.

Just those two plot points alone changes everything. Might Joffrey still turn out to be a little shit? sure, but in that case I see far in the future, another Robert's Rebellion happening. That isn't even taking into account the invasion of the Others, or the return of the Targaryens. 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The more interesting question would be what would have happened if Cersei's children looked the way they did and they still were Robert's children. What would have Stannis done then (Renly didn't give a rat's ass about the parentage of his brother's children)? All the evidence he has is his belief based on looks and his conspiracy theory based on a history book. Cersei never told him what she told Ned.

Cersei could have fucked Jaime without actually making him the father of her children. That's all possible. And since FaB we also know that the Baratheon seed isn't that strong, after all. Princess Rhaenys inherited the black hair of her Baratheon mother, but her children, Laena and Laenor Velaryon, had the silver-gold hair and the purple eyes (Rhaenys also had the purple eyes) of true Velaryons. If second generation Baratheons don't have to have the Baratheon dark hair and can instead inherit the fair hair of their Velaryon father whose bloodline was not exactly kept pure for the last century or so, then any argument made on that stupid book Jon, Stannis, and Ned read is really built on sand.

But, certainly, if Ned had known Joffrey was Robert's son (regardless of his looks) he would have backed him - and in that sense, Cersei, too, although he would have likely prevented her from playing an active part in the Regency government. Ned may have been concerned about Joff's personality, but his personality and values seem to have been far too rigid to actually cite character flaws as a reason to withhold the throne from the son of his best friend and king, a son who had been anointed the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne and who should succeed to the throne by all the laws and customs of the land.

I agree with that.

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The better question is: how different would Joffrey be if he was Robert's son?

Would he still have been the little monster that he was? Would he have been more of a traditional Baratheon? How much of his negative traits were due to his being a product of incest as well as being partly Targaryen (yes, I consider the Lannister twins to be half-Targaryen)? Was it nature or nurture that made Joffrey the way he was?

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Cersei could have fucked Jaime without actually making him the father of her children. That's all possible. And since FaB we also know that the Baratheon seed isn't that strong, after all. Princess Rhaenys inherited the black hair of her Baratheon mother, but her children, Laena and Laenor Velaryon, had the silver-gold hair and the purple eyes (Rhaenys also had the purple eyes) of true Velaryons. If second generation Baratheons don't have to have the Baratheon dark hair and can instead inherit the fair hair of their Velaryon father whose bloodline was not exactly kept pure for the last century or so, then any argument made on that stupid book Jon, Stannis, and Ned read is really built on sand.

 

The Baratheon seed is certainly strong, it's just that the Velaryon seed is just as strong, if not stronger. Rhaenys was half Targ, half Baratheon. Her children were therefore just a quarter Baratheon. The rest was made up of the blood of Valyria, but since we know how easily the Targaryen genes recede, we can assume that it's the Velaryon genes which made Laenor and Laena the way they are. Hell, Baratheon even had a bit of Targ in it if we can believe the idea of Orys being Aegon's half-brother.

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54 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The better question is: how different would Joffrey be if he was Robert's son?

The Baratheons have major personality and self-control issues, too. Joff was about to become a second Maegor or worse, but Robert was not exactly a great king, either, and we see how rotten ambitious Baratheons can become in the behavior of Rogar Baratheon's brother Borys.

And considering the Baratheon descent of House Targaryen there is certainly the chance that various Baratheons would inherit character traits like those of Maegor or Aerion in addition to their one problematical tendencies.

54 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Would he still have been the little monster that he was? Would he have been more of a traditional Baratheon? How much of his negative traits were due to his being a product of incest as well as being partly Targaryen (yes, I consider the Lannister twins to be half-Targaryen)? Was it nature or nurture that made Joffrey the way he was?

Joffrey is not a Targaryen descendant. But the Lannisters have issues, too.

58 minutes ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

The Baratheon seed is certainly strong, it's just that the Velaryon seed is just as strong, if not stronger. Rhaenys was half Targ, half Baratheon. Her children were therefore just a quarter Baratheon. The rest was made up of the blood of Valyria, but since we know how easily the Targaryen genes recede, we can assume that it's the Velaryon genes which made Laenor and Laena the way they are. Hell, Baratheon even had a bit of Targ in it if we can believe the idea of Orys being Aegon's half-brother.

There is no reason to believe there is a 'Velaryon seed', especially in light of the fact that there wouldn't even be a properly pure-blooded Velaryon line. Corlys, his father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc. all took wives from other houses (his great-grandfather Aethan, for instance was married to a Massey), and would thus only 'Velaryons' in a tiny fraction of their bloodline - they inherit genes from all their ancestors, and they multiply with every generation, with they exception, perhaps, of the branch that goes back the Valyria where the Velaryons may have married brother to sister just like the Targaryens did).

In Corlys' and Rhaenys' case it is actually more likely that the Targaryen traits that Rhaenys also inherited also came to the fore in her children, in combination with the looks of Corlys (who is never described, so we don't know what kind of hair or eyes he actually had), never mind that her hair was black.

But the point here just is that the 'the seed is strong argument' got a pretty big hint by that fact, considering the main reason why Stannis seems to believe that Robert's children are not his is that no Baratheon descendant ever had fair hair regardless who the non-Baratheon parent was. And that seems to be clearly wrong now.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Baratheons have major personality and self-control issues, too. Joff was about to become a second Maegor or worse, but Robert was not exactly a great king, either, and we see how rotten ambitious Baratheons can become in the behavior of Rogar Baratheon's brother Borys.

And considering the Baratheon descent of House Targaryen there is certainly the chance that various Baratheons would inherit character traits like those of Maegor or Aerion in addition to their one problematical tendencies.

Joffrey is not a Targaryen descendant. But the Lannisters have issues, too.

There is no reason to believe there is a 'Velaryon seed', especially in light of the fact that there wouldn't even be a properly pure-blooded Velaryon line. Corlys, his father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc. all took wives from other houses (his great-grandfather Aethan, for instance was married to a Massey), and would thus only 'Velaryons' in a tiny fraction of their bloodline - they inherit genes from all their ancestors, and they multiply with every generation, with they exception, perhaps, of the branch that goes back the Valyria where the Velaryons may have married brother to sister just like the Targaryens did).

In Corlys' and Rhaenys' case it is actually more likely that the Targaryen traits that Rhaenys also inherited also came to the fore in her children, in combination with the looks of Corlys (who is never described, so we don't know what kind of hair or eyes he actually had), never mind that her hair was black.

But the point here just is that the 'the seed is strong argument' got a pretty big hint by that fact, considering the main reason why Stannis seems to believe that Robert's children are not his is that no Baratheon descendant ever had fair hair regardless who the non-Baratheon parent was. And that seems to be clearly wrong now.

Honestly, I think you pointing out that Velaryons still look Valyrian despite not practising incest actually enforces Floki's argument rather than diminishes it. Look at how much the Velaryon seed endures despite mingling with who knows how many different houses. Aurane Waters resembles Rhaegar to the point that Cersei openly dances with him and flirts with him. And he's not even a legitimate Velaryon. How could the Velaryons retain their Valyrian features after generations of mixing genes if their seed WASN'T strong? Not even the Baratheons or Tullys could compete with that. 

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13 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Honestly, I think you pointing out that Velaryons still look Valyrian despite not practising incest actually enforces Floki's argument rather than diminishes it. Look at how much the Velaryon seed endures despite mingling with who knows how many different houses. Aurane Waters resembles Rhaegar to the point that Cersei openly dances with him and flirts with him. And he's not even a legitimate Velaryon. How could the Velaryons retain their Valyrian features after generations of mixing genes if their seed WASN'T strong? Not even the Baratheons or Tullys could compete with that. 

One assumes they usually pick brides from a gene pool where Valyrian blood is prevalent as well - Targaryens, Celtigars, Masseys, and other houses from the Crownlands who married Velaryons and/or Targaryens and Celtigars back in the day. But that wouldn't be as pure or strong a trait as the Targaryen purity of blood through incest - and even there not all the descendants have the prototypical Valyrian looks as Alysanne and Alyssa show.

Monford Velaryon just has fair hair, Aurane Waters has the silver-gold hair but grey-green eyes rather than blue or purple eyes.

Many Velaryons are reminiscent of the dragonlords of old, but certainly not all of them. A Velaryon with as striking Valyrian features as Daenaera Velaryon seems to be a very rare occurrence, just as not all Targaryens are blessed with such looks - although certainly more than the Velaryons. But in Daenaera's case I've also speculated that the Hartes may have been that obscure family that claims descent from Gaemon the Glorious' younger daughter, explaining why the blood of the dragon did run so strong in Daenaera. The Hartes may have previously intermarried with cadet branches of House Velaryon or Celtigar, too, of course, but that idea has something to it, I'd think.

Overall, it seems to me that those families who can number number the blood of the dragons among their ancestors - or those who have more than one Targaryen ancestor - may bring forth occasionally a descendant who more or less resembles a proper dragonlord. There should be Martells with fair hair and purple/blue eyes, there should be Penroses and Plumms with such looks, etc. We also see this with Ulf White, I'd say. He has Valyrian features without being a dragonseed or the son of a seed, yet he clearly is of visible Valyrian descent - as might be/are many smallfolk on Dragonstone to this day.

In fact, if Princess Rhaelle had Valyrian looks, it might even be that Lord Steffon had inherited the purple eyes of his mother, just as Princess Rhaenys did from her father.

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Cersei and Jamie were never caught before Bran and his fall (and were never caught together after that for that matter).

If the hair color was the only lead Jon was following (not to mention it took him how many years to catch on? Running the realm but has no idea what his Queen does at night?) then we have no reason to suspect that he would start to investigate the Lannisters. 

 

Ned backs Joffrey. Worst case scenario is that he follows Renly's advice.

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Interesting topic. Probably Ned would not have become Hand, because the one before him would be still alive. Now if even so Petyr Baelish concocted and had him killed. Ned would have gone to KL as Hand but would have supported Joffrey as King.

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