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Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS

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Oh yeah, one non-timeline thing that bugged me a little- they included a scene where all the women gather together to a big awesome bit and it's like, okay, a bit on-the-nose but fine and if it winds up a certain kind of idiot all the better.
But, aside from the fact that Captain Marvel didn't need them at all, they and she then fail anyway and the day is saved by Tony, thus rather undermining the strength of the scene quite a lot.

In fact for all the hype around Marvel, she did pretty much nothing of any plot relevance in this movie. While simultaneously being so comically overpowered that it is going to be a problem to balance her going forward, though they'll most likely just do what they did here and with Thor before and have her disappear when necessary.

On the plus side, Asgardians of the Galaxy fuck yeah.

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Captain Marvel has only just shown up, they couldn't have her save the day single handedly as they'd be a bit deus ex machina (for the roughly 50% of the audience who haven't seen Captain Marvel). So they used her quite smartly as someone who can take down Thanos (except when he used the Power Stone directly against her) but then paved the way for the original Avengers to finish him off.

The timeline thing I think is way simpler than we're making it: time is elastic. You can stretch it a little bit until it breaks and forms a new timeline. But it can snap back to the original timeline if you fix things.

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6 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Oh yeah, one non-timeline thing that bugged me a little- they included a scene where all the women gather together to a big awesome bit and it's like, okay, a bit on-the-nose but fine and if it winds up a certain kind of idiot all the better.
But, aside from the fact that Captain Marvel didn't need them at all, they and she then fail anyway and the day is saved by Tony, thus rather undermining the strength of the scene quite a lot.

I was thinking the same thing with that scene being too on the nose, the IW one is fine where a few females just happen to meet in battle ... but that takes some coordination, to get literally the entire female cast breaking off for their own assault. That was probably the only time in the film I lost the flow a bit, ant man and the wasp were doing something in the van, then somebody threw something, then a bunch of people were fighting Thanos? Didn’t quite follow the logic of that section.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

I'm don't really understand this as I haven't seen it yet, but I'll take your word for it.  I am generally unclear on how he possibly could be "in his own timeline" once he goes back to begin with, logically.  That's Terminator rules, whereas it seems the entire film operates under Back To The Future rules.

It looks to me like timelines prefer to remain consistent, and only split off divergent branches if the changes to the past are impossible to reconcile with the previously observed future (eg no time stone to defeat Dormammu). As long as Steve doesn't go out of his way to deliberately change the course of history beyond the personal scale, everything is fine.

My guess is Tony created copies of the original Thanos and co in the past to replace the ones who travelled to the future and got dusted. Including Gamora, so a copy got sacrificed for the soul stone, but the original time traveller is still around in the MCU present.

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2 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

That was probably the only time in the film I lost the flow a bit, ant man and the wasp were doing something in the van, then somebody threw something, then a bunch of people were fighting Thanos? Didn’t quite follow the logic of that section.



Basically all the women did something cool then Marvel just blasted through loads of massive monsters and flew at the van but at the last second Thanos threw his big sword blade thing (I think) at the van and blew it up just before she got there so she ended up in a fistfight with him instead.

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3 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

That was probably the only time in the film I lost the flow a bit, ant man and the wasp were doing something in the van, then somebody threw something, then a bunch of people were fighting Thanos? Didn’t quite follow the logic of that section.

Ant Man and Wasp were getting the original quantum realm machine running so the stones could be taken back to their places in history, others were trying to get the gauntlet to them, but the machine got destroyed before that could happen.

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I was lamenting that Cap didn't go to Vormir and thus didn't meet Red Skull again. Then of course I realised he would have done so, whilst returning the stone.

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38 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Captain Marvel has only just shown up, they couldn't have her save the day single handedly as they'd be a bit deus ex machina (for the roughly 50% of the audience who haven't seen Captain Marvel). So they used her quite smartly as someone who can take down Thanos (except when he used the Power Stone directly against her) but then paved the way for the original Avengers to finish him off.


That's fine so far as it goes but it jarred when they made such a big deal out of her, both in-universe and out, and then she was ultimately such a bit-part. Her arrival at the big battle was cool but past that she achieved basically nothing on-screen and I was disappointed by that.



 

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Just now, polishgenius said:

That's fine so far as it goes but it jarred when they made such a big deal out of her, both in-universe and out, and then she was ultimately such a bit-part. Her arrival at the big battle was cool but past that she achieved basically nothing on-screen and I was disappointed by that.

She helped them kill Thanos first time around, helped save the rest of the galaxy as it was falling into chaos and then destroyed Thanos's flagship at the end. She was used strategically (in a story sense) to do important stuff but not overwhelm the original characters. Now she's been deployed, she can do more next time around, against MFing Galactus or whatever :P

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Best thing about the film for me was all the surprises and the promotion doing such a good job of keeping things tight-lipped. Fat Thor, intelligent Hulk, killing Thanos off the bat, 5 years later, all the messing around in key moments from previous films. It was a real joy.

I rewatched infinity war yesterday and joked to my brother "if they'd given cap america a super weapon or iron man armour none of this would have happened" and then we get cap with mjolnir (excellent call back to the best scene from age of Ultron) in a perfect scene.

Loved caps ending even if i saw it coming. Starks ending was fine. Black Widow and clint fighting to sacrifice themselves was genuinely unpredictable.

What detracts somewhat from me is the time travel. Especially given the fact they made a point of trashing time-travel in other films. That and I'm maybe being harsh as I've just finished reading "one word kill" that treats time-travel in a logical fashion. Unless they are creating parallel worlds (which means they still lost in the original timeline and this is just an off-shoot where it worked) i just can't make sense of it. They killed Thanos before he acquired the stones and snapped so that thanos and nebula and gamorra have to come from a parallel world? And that version of gamorra is still here? If you can do that then you could also pluck natasha and vision from parallel worlds that were identical to the prime world before they died. Yes, they'll be missing a few hours but no big deal.

But the most confusing thing for me is the 5 year gap. So everyone who died just reappeared 5 years later as if no time had gone by for them?  Because that's still leaving a hell of a lot of trauma for anyone who had to remember 5 years of the world going to shit. Does this also mean that for the likes of Spidey he's living in 2023 but for all intents and purposes feels like he's in 2018?

It also leaves me wondering if some of the future marvel projects have been misdirects. Black widow film was rumoured to be a prequel but it's a bit of a downer watching a film about a dead character.

Wandavision seems a tricky show to do unless they just go with "someone built a new vision".

And surely "falcon and the winter soldier" needs to be renamed?

The Loki show is fine though.

Also if gotg is "asgardians of the galaxy" I'll be more than happy.

Time-travel issues aside it was still a great experience and hope most people get to see it knowing as little as possible.

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26 minutes ago, red snow said:

And surely "falcon and the winter soldier" needs to be renamed?

Team America?  Shit, I think that's taken.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DMC said:

I'm don't really understand this as I haven't seen it yet, but I'll take your word for it.  I am generally unclear on how he possibly could be "in his own timeline" once he goes back to begin with, logically.  That's Terminator rules, whereas it seems the entire film operates under Back To The Future rules.

You won’t know how funny that post is until you watch the film. 

Edited by ants

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30 minutes ago, ants said:

You won’t know how funny that post is until you watch the film. 

I mean, all credit for that goes to Trey Parker.  Except for Timerider rules which are just plain silly.

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4 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Also: the Ancient One makes a big point about how Earth is unprotected and will fall to the dark if there's no time stone in that timeline. Well, there's no time stone in 'our' timeline now...

 

4 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Maybe The Ancient One’s concerns were about Dormammu, who was still a threat then. Then once he’s defeated, Doctor Strange defends it for regular reasons, like not snapping half the universe to death.

This was definitely my interpretation - the future she'd been focused on was the conflict that sees her die and Strange take over. He loses there without the stone.

4 hours ago, DMC said:

I'm don't really understand this as I haven't seen it yet, but I'll take your word for it.  I am generally unclear on how he possibly could be "in his own timeline" once he goes back to begin with, logically.  That's Terminator rules, whereas it seems the entire film operates under Back To The Future rules.

The implication for me isn't that he stays where he returns the stones but makes one additional travel back to the past of his own timeline. He was meant to make that trip anyway, he just went to a different destination.

I really can't see any way that there isn't one permanent alternate reality after this, Thanos being missing is far too massive to be merged into the main timeline. Given that timeline may well turn out to be better than the main one I don't think there's quite the ethical concerns that there would be with keeping the stones.

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From the other thread

Which scene did you cry at?

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16 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I really can't see any way that there isn't one permanent alternate reality after this, Thanos being missing is far too massive to be merged into the main timeline. Given that timeline may well turn out to be better than the main one I don't think there's quite the ethical concerns that there would be with keeping the stones.

As you are answering time related questions.

How is nebula alive if she killed her past self?

If loki escaped with the cube in the past then didn t history change completly?

How do the guardians of the galaxy even know each other if the past gamorra is in the future? She never participated in the first guardians!

Seriously, I don t understand how a lot of things aren t diferent...

 

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5 minutes ago, divica said:

Seriously, I don t understand how a lot of things aren t diferent...

Changes to the past create new parallel universes; they don't affect your universe. That's why they had to bring the stones from the past to the present day to fix things, instead of killing Thanos as a baby or whatever.

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1 minute ago, felice said:

Changes to the past create new parallel universes; they don't affect your universe. That's why they had to bring the stones from the past to the present day to fix things, instead of killing Thanos as a baby or whatever.

But by that logic cap america shouldn t be old in their universe. He should be old in another paralel universe.

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49 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I really can't see any way that there isn't one permanent alternate reality after this, Thanos being missing is far too massive to be merged into the main timeline. Given that timeline may well turn out to be better than the main one I don't think there's quite the ethical concerns that there would be with keeping the stones.

Yeah that's kinda what I was getting at.

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30 minutes ago, divica said:

As you are answering time related questions.

How is nebula alive if she killed her past self?

If loki escaped with the cube in the past then didn t history change completly?

How do the guardians of the galaxy even know each other if the past gamorra is in the future? She never participated in the first guardians!

Seriously, I don t understand how a lot of things aren t diferent...

 

Ok I think I need to abbreviate to keep this concise so I'm gonna to use the following short hand. Timeline 1 (T1) is the timeline all the movies have taken place in and all the characters we know are from here. Timeline 2 (T2) is the timeline where our avengers appear during the battle of New York, in this timeline Loki has escaped with the tesseract. Timeline 3 (T3) is the timeline where Nebula and War Machine knock out Quill and our Nebula gets captured.

T2 is relatively unknown, it's possible that our Cap manages to track Loki down and return him to where he's supposed to be and this timeline snaps back to normal, collapsing back into T1. I don't think this is likely as our Cap has also revealed to the Shield Hydra agents that he knows they're Hydra and I think that has knock on consequences. 

I think T2 and T3 are actually the same timeline because the location and actions of Thanos don't fit neatly with events of GotG1 - it was one of Ronan's minions that was in the solar system but in T3 Thanos just happens to be nearby himself and is only now sending Gamora and Nebula to Ronan to go get the power stone. I think these changes can easily be explained by knock on effects of Loki getting away without needing to go into details.

In T3 T1-Nebula is captured and replaced by T3-Nebula. They figure out how to miniaturise Thanos's ship, T3-Nebula travels to T1 and then brings the ship in behind her. At this point T3-Thanos along with all his troops, minions and T3-Gamora and T1-Nebula are brought through to T1 as well. T1-Nebula shoots and kills T3-Nebula but they are actually distinct people from the moment T3 split off from T1. With the model of time travel used in the movie it's not possible to cause someone to stop existing by killing their past self because they have anyway lived past that point, attempting to change it causes a separate timeline to fork off.

In T3 I agree with you the the absence of Gamora should mean the GotG never get together and Ronan probably succeeds, but T1 is already set in stone and she was there for that.

16 minutes ago, divica said:

But by that logic cap america shouldn t be old in their universe. He should be old in another paralel universe.

This is the point where I think they have messed up, because the time travel model doesn't allow for the explanation of "Steve always went back in time and was Peggy's husband all along", as soon as he travels to 1953 or wherever that should be a big enough change to create a T4. I guess the handwave is the he is very careful and doesn't change anything major which would allow for the above explanation to work.

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