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Great battle plan! Dubious tactics discussion.

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1 minute ago, The hairy bear said:

@ferrelhadley

I do not question that cavalry is most effective when charging. But there were many other smarter ways to have that than lead them into the dark.

Since cavalry is the most valuable asset, prudent generals tend to use them in the reserve.

This is a suicide stance against a innumerable enemy. There is nothing to "reserve" for. 

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4 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Easily. They're defending a castle with a flaming trench in front of it.

When they see the dead people attempting to breach the flaming trench they charge in. Not complicated at all.

From where? Had they been away from the main host the undead would have sensed them and been able to hit them on their own. Simply thinking of "a thing" does not make it a plot hole. 

Where would you have positioned them. What "flank" would you have attacked, how is this supposed to have played out?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, ferrelhadley said:

This is a suicide stance against a innumerable enemy. There is nothing to "reserve" for. 

In the previous episode, Sansa and Dany discussed about the political organization of the Seven Kingdoms after the war, Grey Worm and Missandei made plans for the future, Jorah worried about the succession of his house if young Lyanna died in battle, and plans to hide the VIPs in the crypts were made.

Not only that: they devised the actual plan of baiting the Night King with Bran and then kill him by surprise, thus obliterating his entire army. Exactly what they successfully did.

There always had been hope of prevailing.

Edited by The hairy bear

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Posted (edited)

   A simple battle plan. Still better than what we got.

                                                                            DEAD PEOPLE

                                                                                     V

                                                                                     \/

                     --->                                                         \/                                                                <---

               /                                                                                                                                                   \

           /                        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX(Flaming Trench)XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                         \

          I                         X                                 UNSULLIED/INFANTRY                                  X                          I

          I                         X                                       CATAPULTS                                              X                          I

  CALVARY                   X            _____               ARCHERS ON WALLS               _______          X                   CALVARY

                                    X          I                                                                                    I        X

                                    X          I                              WINTERFELL                                  I        X

                                    X          I                                                                                    I        X

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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Yep. It was so dumb I can't even comprehend.

No archers on the walls. They only fired one catapult shot from each trebuchet if I remember correctly. They should have had more catapults inside the walls and all over hitting them from everywhere. Watch the opening scene of Gladiator. That is how you utilize infantry, cavalry, and artillery. You slaughter an enemy before they even have a chance to react. This was some of the dumbest planning and execution I have ever seen in a show/movie.

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Did the Dothraki even have the dragon glass swords?  It looked like they had traditional swords.  Not having the Trebuchets behind the infantry was just stupid.  It was a horrible battle plan.

On the other side of bad strategy... Why did the OTHER/WW not enter the battle until the end?  The NK did not even commit his best soldiers until it was time to kill Bran.  Also when his army walked thru the wall at the end of the last season there were atleast a dozen Giants in his army.  Where were all the Giants?  Where were the white walker Bears and Ice Spiders?

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9 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

   A simple battle plan. Still better than what we got.

                                                                            DEAD PEOPLE

                                                                                     V

                                                                                     \/

                     --->                                                         \/                                                                <---

               /                                                                                                                                                   \

           /                        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX(Flaming Trench)XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                         \

          I                         X                                 UNSULLIED/INFANTRY                                  X                          I

          I                         X                                       CATAPULTS                                              X                          I

  CALVARY                   X            _____                ARCHERS ON WALLS               _______         X                   CALVARY

                                    X          I                                                                                    I        X

                                    X         I                                WINTERFELL                                I         X

                                    X         I                                                                                    I         X

This would have been a lot better then what they went with.  Perhaps a double trench and enough room for the Calvary to ride between the 2 trenches to prevent Dead Army from gaining a foothold.  I would even use Calvary to make a run at the WW lieutenants just chilling in the back.

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11 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

   A simple battle plan. Still better than what we got.

Still waiting for this "flank" or where you would have positioned the cavalry. For those who are not following this, the reason cavalry would want to attack a flank is that there would be no shield wall or spears in that direction, it breaks the formation and thus induces infantry to break and run with fear. 
Not exactly a plan with a massive hoard of undead. 
This TV show's battles have always been silly fun with minimal realism. Perhaps this will inspire one or two to read up on medieval warfare and from there read more in the incredible histories this show is based on.
But I am unconvinced by peoples efforts to pick apart tactics when they seem to have a poor grasp of them. 

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20 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

   A simple battle plan. Still better than what we got.

    DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE DEAD PEOPLE                                                                        

                                                                                     V

                                                                                     \/

                     --->                                                         \/                                                                <---

               /                                                                                                                                                   \

           /                        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX(Flaming Trench)XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                         \

          I                         X                                 UNSULLIED/INFANTRY                                  X                          I

          I                         X                                       CATAPULTS                                              X                          I

  CALVARY                   X            _____               ARCHERS ON WALLS               _______          X                   CALVARY

                                    X          I                                                                                    I        X

                                    X          I                              WINTERFELL                                  I        X

                                    X          I                                                                                    I        X

Fixed. 

And why do you have most of Winterfell unprotected by the fire trench. 

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This battle plan is what happens when you kill off all the experienced generals on your show. You just send your 1000s of your most experienced warriors out to die in darkness. No archer cover and you get overrun in an instant 

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Crazy stupid battle plan from so many fronts.  But let's face it, the core of the strategy from Ep 2 was basically to just hope the NK left himself exposed and to somehow pick him off.   

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12 minutes ago, Prince Jon said:

Crazy stupid battle plan from so many fronts.  But let's face it, the core of the strategy from Ep 2 was basically to just hope the NK left himself exposed and to somehow pick him off.   

Not even a trap! A hole filled with pointed obsidian, an oil and fire surprise, an expert archer positioned, an ambush outnumbering, faceless Arya, tyrion's cock jokes for the seven sake just something! even If It was supposed to go wrong.

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isnt the purpose of artiliary and archers to hit the baddfies BEFORE you charge?  

Did everyone just attend Edward Longshanks school of "yes we will hit our own guys but we will hit thiers too"?

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3 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

I love how they didn't have the walls already loaded with archers.

And that the catapults were in front of the Unsullied.

 

i especially loved the part when melisandre briefly stops the wights from crossing the trench and they are literally just standing a few feet away from the wall. no, it's okay archers! you've done enough for today. take a breather. 

i was actually facepalming during that scene.

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10 minutes ago, the red god said:

i especially loved the part when melisandre briefly stops the wights from crossing the trench and they are literally just standing a few feet away from the wall. no, it's okay archers! you've done enough for today. take a breather. 

i was actually facepalming during that scene.

I was yelling you idiots what are you waiting for they are just standing there.

I mean what did they think if we don't shoot maybe they will go away we don't want to instigate an attack.  Lets save the arrows we might need them later.  Seriously what were thinking.  Didnt the commanders order the archers to the highest points of the wall before they stormed the castle yet nobody fired another arrow.

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Am I missing something or did Jon just black out during Hardhome?

The purpose of the fight was a delaying action for Bran to have a chance to bring in the NK.  At Hardhome, the 10 foot wooden wall was the only thing delaying the undead (I'm not even going to get into how if the Wights can just climb ontop of each other to get over the wall, then Hardhome should have lasted about 10 min).  Jon literally watched everyone on the other side of the wall just get run through.  So, why was everyone outside of the walls (not real sure on height since battle seemed to show like 20-30 foot walls but when Theon and Sansa jumped it seemed like 60 foot)?  

Second point, Jon again saw the massive winter storm that came with the dead during Hardhome.  Did he just think that wouldn't happen again or am I missing something?  

 

Lastly, someone mentioned that the Dothraki charge was a mistake?  I guess the logic is the Dothraki got too fired up and just went for it after the fire was added or something to that extent.  That is why we see Jorah fall somewhere in the middle of the group as opposed to the front?  Anyone else hear this?

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2 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

   A simple battle plan. Still better than what we got.

                                                                            DEAD PEOPLE

                                                                                     V

                                                                                     \/

                     --->                                                         \/                                                                <---

               /                                                                                                                                                   \

           /                        XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX(Flaming Trench)XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX                         \

          I                         X                                 UNSULLIED/INFANTRY                                  X                          I

          I                         X                                       CATAPULTS                                              X                          I

  CALVARY                   X            _____               ARCHERS ON WALLS               _______          X                   CALVARY

                                    X          I                                                                                    I        X

                                    X          I                              WINTERFELL                                  I        X

                                    X          I                                                                                    I        X

Is there ironic purpose in spelling cavalry with the name of the mount where Christ was crucified?  Genuinely wondering.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Is there ironic purpose in spelling cavalry with the name of the mount where Christ was crucified?  Genuinely wondering.

No. I just spelled it wrong. :blush:

And since it was all caps spellcheck didn't come through.

Edited by A True Kaniggit

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4 hours ago, ferrelhadley said:

A massed cavalry charge against a foe with no shield wall and no "shiltron" or pikes is a bad idea why?
At 450kg plus per horse plus 70kg rider moving at about 40km/h would give you a kinetic energy of around 400 kilo joules, a mass of thousands of them barrelling in tight formation to entities that are composed of brittle bone would in all likelihood induce a great deal of "rapid disassembly" among them. It should not kill them but it would have been likely they would have smashed them to pieces. Seems a reasonable tactic, given that I am not sure they had too many other options. 
Perhaps it did not work like that because the directors did not think like that, perhaps they did smash many thousands of them but were pulled of their horses and traded their lives for a significant winnowing down of the wights. 

I won't dispute the numbers you gave, but there are other things you consider. Since you seem to know about medieval battles, heavy cavalry charges worked against infantry that wasn't presenting a solid front, and the cavalry formations themselves were really compact, to add that mass. Furthermore, horses won't really hit a big mass.

In last season, the battle on the kingsroad? we actually see the horses stop multiple times in front of the Lannister formations, and only plunge through the gaps. I'd argue that in this battle, the Dothraki formation was looser than the big mass of wights. 

And last point, there's the magical factor of what the wights are - with all that they entail, a number of horses should have panicked, fucking up the charge all together.

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23 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

No. I just spelled it wrong. :blush:

And since it was all caps spellcheck didn't come through.

Well, in a real sense, they were sacrificed -- 'crucified' -- for the salvation of -- o, I dunno -- D&D's Big Picture?  :crying:

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