LadyBlackwater Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, a girl knows nothing said: I don't see why not. The Northerners at least have some precedence of women being the heads of house. Granted, warden of the north is a more weighty title, but they do seem to recognize the potential for strong female leadership. Very true. The knights of the Vale even said "we came for YOU my lady". I also think the North would rally around her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wik Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 On 5/1/2019 at 10:47 PM, Kaguya said: I actually have a feeling Tyrion could die in this episode. Bronn could even ambush him in a brothel. Thoughts? Nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starklover Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 hour ago, LadyBlackwater said: Amen. I think the North would be perfectly happy if Jon was ruling alongside Dany. I think the problem they had was how quickly he bent the knee. He could potentially name Sansa the Warden of the North. Would the Northmen be okay with a woman Warden as long as she is a Stark of Winterfell? jon should rule beside dany. i dont why that havent come up yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBlackwater Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, princess brittany said: jon should rule beside dany. i dont why that havent come up yet. AGREED!! Why all the tension when he told her? If they love one another, they should rule together!! Sir Davos said it best. He said what if, for the first time in the history of Westeros, a just woman and an honorable man ruled together? I loved that line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
of man and wolf Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Jon and Dany wont marry. Whatever Jon is now, he considers himself a Stark, and wouldnt be able to do the Targ thing and wed a relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figdoni Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 16 hours ago, Hippocras said: She is not acting like a petty child. Dany represents a serious problem for her as a Northern leader, and Jon too even if he doesn't see it. .... As for her chat with Tyrion, that was a warning to him. She is playing a high stakes political game with long term goals for her people and her family, and if he seems to be too close to her he will get himself in trouble. She basically stated, while Missandei could hear, that Tyrion was loyal to Dany. Which frankly was a very helpful thing for her to do for him. Her chat with Tyrion, whilst it was a warning to him, and might have suggested to Missandei that Tyrion has loyalty to Dany, but her line "Your divided loyalties would become a problem" massively screams that House Stark and Dany are not on the same side as far as Sansa is concerned. (eek!) That was not clever, it will only reinforce "Sansa is a little upstart that I can't trust" to Dany, if she doesn't regard it as outright treason. And this may be what the scriptwriters want... to infuse more tension into the Jon/Dany relationship, putting doubts in Dany's head about her confidence in him as well... but it's still not strategically clever from Sansa's pov to antagonise a Queen who likes barbequing dissenters.... And I have to agree with MinscS2 in that Sansa is sounding like a petulant child. If her "what about the North" was merely pointing out to Dany that she will have difficulties getting the The North's loyalty... then why is she doing such a good job at stirring up & reinforcing that lack of loyalty by undermining & backbiting at Dany in front of those very Northerners.... those Northern families who will be influenced in their thinking towards Dany by how they see Sansa treat her. 15 hours ago, Hippocras said: Now, as for Jaime's evolving cleverness: Yes, he was blindsided by Cersei's move with the Golden Company. But so was everyone else, including Tyrion, so that hardly means he is an idiot. It was Jaime who came up with the strategy to abandon Casterly Rock and go for Highgarden, which had HUGE military payoffs in spite of the losses in the loot train attack. It was also brilliant of him to use Edmure Tully's revulsion of him to make him THINK he would actually catapult his baby over the walls if he did not surrender Riverrun. Jaime used his reputation as a monster to actually save hundreds of lives and even keep his vow to never again raise arms against Cat's family. Sure, he is not as well read as Tyrion and never will be. But losing his fighting hand was a very good thing for his growing use of his strategic brain. Tyrion may not be able to be replaced by a single character but a combination of Jaime for military tactics, Sansa for management of the Realm's affairs, and Sam for deep knowledge of history and precedents would pretty much fill the hole if Tyrion did die, and Tyrion dying would be a very significant thing for altering how the rest of the characters deal with things. Love is blind, and none more blinded than Jaimie. He looked like a kicked puppy when Cersei laughed at him for thinking she meant what she said about going North. Tyrion didn't look surprised at the news though, he has never trusted her. And I don't think he is an idiot... just that he needs help figuring things out. Sure, he's great at military strategy & battles, but thats been his job all his life. I don't think losing his hand improved that... but it did certainly improve the level of inward self reflection and self understanding he's been doing - particularly in relation to loyalty and what it means to be honourable - mostly with Brienne's influence. But he's no political strategist or at least hasn't shown doing that very often in the show. Replacing Tyrion's skills with a combination of multiple characters depends on those multiple characters surviving... and wanting to stick together and all serve whoever rules. Unlikely. Sam is gonna be off training as a Maester... Sansa will want to stay up North... Jaime, who knows, but he'll inherit the Lannister title and will probably be a broken man after Cersei gets topped. 12 hours ago, MinscS2 said: 1. There's no reason for her to do that if all she cares about is the well-being of the northerners, but she does it anyway, which, for a character that learned the "smile and wave"-game several seasons ago and managed to survive Joffrey, makes no sense what so ever. .... 2. The North was already very much a target, and I can't imagine how Cersei would leave them alone just because you take Daenerys and Jon's knee-bending out of the equation. ... 3. When it comes to Cersei, Sansa is actually the brightest bulb in the chandelier, I'll give her that. .... 4. And just a small endnote @Hippocras: please don't take this personally. I rather enjoy discussing GoT from opposing views. 1. The only reason I can see is the scriptwriters needing to ramp up distrust between Dany/Jon in the coming episodes... to make Dany even more twitchy about Jon's claim for the throne and who she can trust... and maybe for Jon to feel inwardly torn between his Stark and Targaryan sides. 2. Oh god, totally... all relations of Ned would have been killed in Season 1 if Cersei had a clear shot. She spent so long blaming Sansa & Tyrion for Joffrey's death that it was almost immaterial to her when it was revealed as Olenna. They're all treasonous traitors for even naming a king in the north. 3. Yes... and I'm really hoping Little Dove provides some strategically critical nugget that will be the crucial thing that helps them defeat Cersei. 4. I'm also enjoying the differing views massively.... I've agreed with points you've both made, and enjoyed thinking about the points I didn't 3 hours ago, princess brittany said: jon should rule beside dany. i dont why that havent come up yet. They kinda have, in their chat between Varys, Davos and Tyrion... but its fair to say that Dany and Jon had more urgent things crop up seconds after the Aegon Targaryan bombshell got dropped. It won't resolve the tension re The North though... it won't matter that Jon's mother is a Stark, as any succession to the throne after a Jon/Dany reign will still be Targaryan, ie an outsider. Unless the seat of power shifts North... Kings Landing gets destroyed and the new seat of the ruler of the 7 Kingdoms gets moved to Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnViserion Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 On 5/2/2019 at 10:57 AM, Hippocras said: Yes, yes, Stannis came too, but only out of desperation as a means to an end. Stannis came to do his duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonoNono Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 I think Tyrion survives the series. Bran told him his story and it's the kind of things people who have a story to pass on before they die do, passing it on to those who will keep the story or retell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 2 hours ago, UnViserion said: Stannis came to do his duty. Not really no. He ignored the raven messages from the Night’s Watch until Davos found it in a reject pile and brought it to him, and would not have gone if Mel had not told him to. But regardless, the point is that noone who actually HAD the Iron Throne came or has ever come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btfu806 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 On 5/3/2019 at 1:39 PM, Cas Stark said: What does Sansa have to offer him? Is she going to be his wife and then the children ruling Winterfell are Lannisters? Why would she do that? Why would the North support that? His sister has just sent Bronn to kill him, why would he betray the woman who forgave his bad counsel and made him hand for his sister who wants him dead? Of course none of this has to make sense at this point because : drama/shock/twists, I guess. oh you're absolutely right, it makes no sense. But I feel like they pushed Sansa/Tyrion pretty hard on us the past few episodes. Maybe it's just to give him an ally for when he betrays them, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 42 minutes ago, btfu806 said: oh you're absolutely right, it makes no sense. But I feel like they pushed Sansa/Tyrion pretty hard on us the past few episodes. Maybe it's just to give him an ally for when he betrays them, I don't know. I know that is one of the leaks, but unless he decides that HE wants to sit the IT, I don't see why he would betray Dany, he's her hand, he will have the same power and more than he did before, and Dany has forgiven him for his terrible advice....Jon would never betray Dany in an underhanded way, so unless Sansa wants to sit the IT with Tyrion, and they both go down, it's hard for me to see, even in the showrunners strange minds, why he would make such a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btfu806 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 Just now, Cas Stark said: I know that is one of the leaks, but unless he decides that HE wants to sit the IT, I don't see why he would betray Dany, he's her hand, he will have the same power and more than he did before, and Dany has forgiven him for his terrible advice....Jon would never betray Dany in an underhanded way, so unless Sansa wants to sit the IT with Tyrion, and they both go down, it's hard for me to see, even in the showrunners strange minds, why he would make such a move. As of now, I agree there is no logical path. That's why it probably won't be logical. sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 1 minute ago, btfu806 said: As of now, I agree there is no logical path. That's why it probably won't be logical. sigh There is a slim chance that this is the last of the author's 'big twists' so maybe it will be surprising and will make some sense, but at this point, that seems like a long shot. GOT certainly needs to end on a high note after the last crazy episode, IMO. I agree they have gone out of their way to put Tyrion and Sansa together, that may just be fan service or fanfic or it may have some meaning within the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywin Tytosson Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 On 5/2/2019 at 4:35 PM, Hippocras said: She has not made demands. She simply stated the truth. The people she represents are not interested in Southern rule. What is Dany going to do about that. « What of the North ». If the Starks give in to more of the same, the Starks will face Northern mutiny and Dany will still not have the loyalty of the North. And we wee that the Stark already have mutinies resulting from Jon's bending the knee. The Glovers, in particular. We also haven't seen any Manderly's, Cernwoods, et al at Winterfell this season. Though they didn't mutiny, the Mormonts were openly critical of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinscS2 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 This isn't a leak/spoilers-topic, so If you guys are talking about leaks, then PUT IT BEHIND A DAMN SPOILER-TAG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figdoni Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 The theories about betrayal comes from the House of the Undying prophecy.‘three treasons will you know… once for blood and once for gold and once for love…’ Her brother could be the first... It could also be Mirri Maz Duur with her blood magic... Jorah is the probably the second... The third... I've seen a lot of people predicting it'll be Tyrion betraying her for the Lannisters. I think that's unlikely. I think "love" is gonna be much bigger & broader than some brotherly love, but love for the people, the realm and for what is 'right'. Varys has already been primed by the show to be our betrayer... he loves the realm, it's where his true loyalty lies...."As long as I have my eyes I'll use them.... You wish to know where my true loyalties lie? Not with any King or Queen, but with the people.... If you demand blind allegiance, I respect your wishes- Greyworm can behead me..... But if you let me live, I will serve you well, I will dedicate myself to seeing you on the iron throne because I choose you" "If you ever think I"m failing the people you won't conspire behind my back. You'll look me in the eye as you have done today and tell me how I'm failing them........ ....... if you ever betray me, I'll burn you alive" And we know Melissandre told Varys he would die... We also know he's been haunted by the voice in the flames... and I can't help think it'd be a nice end to Varys for that voice to have been his own all along, a premonition of his own death. But... equally... I think its plausible that the betrayal won't just be Varys. If Varys turns on Dany, it will be for really really good reasons & him acting for the people. It will be because it is the right thing to do... and he knows she will kill him for it, but he would clearly see it as necessary.... If it gets to that point, I can't see Tyrion, nor Jon, sticking with her... because they both also have a strong sense of right and wrong. Maybe the betrayal for love will be to lose everyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinscS2 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 14 minutes ago, Figdoni said: The theories about betrayal comes from the House of the Undying prophecy.‘three treasons will you know… once for blood and once for gold and once for love…’ Worth mentioning that this isn't mentioned in the show, not once. Edit: Even if it was, Tyrion basically did betray Daenerys due to love last season - love for his family, specifically Jamie. (Actively throwing monkey wrenches into the works by giving her less-than-ideal military advice, all so she wouldn't accidentally barbecue Jamie by for instance flying to the red keep and burn it down in 10 seconds, which would save alot of lives, but might accidentally kill Jamie. He prioritized his family over his duties as hand of the queen, and calling that a betrayal isn't a stretch. Tyrion even admitted to giving Daenerys advice that would put his family out of harms way in S7E7 when he spoke to Cersei.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figdoni Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, MinscS2 said: Worth mentioning that this isn't mentioned in the show, not once. You're right, its not... but if these betrayals mentioned in the book are major moments in Danaery's story.... then those betrayals are highly likely to be included on the tv show anyway, as big influential moments on her campaign for the throne... The show doesn't need any more prophetic foretelling... but major plot points don't *need* foretelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinscS2 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Figdoni said: You're right, its not... but if these betrayals mentioned in the book are major moments in Danaery's story.... then those betrayals are highly likely to be included on the tv show anyway, as big influential moments on her campaign for the throne... The show doesn't need any more prophetic foretelling... but major plot points don't *need* foretelling People thought that AA and tPtwP was major plot points, and they where mentioned in the show... I really wouldn't expect too much out of book-prophecies that aren't even mentioned in the show, when book-prophecies that are mentioned in the show are barely touched upon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figdoni Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 15 minutes ago, MinscS2 said: People thought that AA and tPtwP was major plot points, and they where mentioned in the show... I really wouldn't expect too much out of book-prophecies that aren't even mentioned in the show, when book-prophecies that are mentioned in the show are barely touched upon. I still think that tPtwP is a major plot point! I do believe that the last episodes are likely to follow loosely what GRRM has planned for the ending , in terms of who wins and who is by their side when they win... and that any allegiance switching to navigate changes from 'team dany' would also need to be incorporated into the show.. maybe not in the same manner that GRRM will write them, but if Tyrion or Varys or Jon end up either dying or surviving on team Cersei, or team Stark in GRRM's plan, the show would find it most easy to use a plot device like betrayal too? (edited to add... And the easiest one to visualise happening from the show pov is Varys, because its been cued up so nicely.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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