snow is the man Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 The North will never be able to have it's independence now. If they side with dany they join the seven kingdoms. If they stand by the side and do nothing then cersei will conquer them once she's won or Dany will when she's won. Cersei may not be able to take moat cailian but she could invade by sea and since the north has very few fighting men they couldn't put up a real fight. Think about it. Pretty much all of the northmen rob took south died or were captured. That was about half of the northern forces if I remember correctly. However even if half made it back (karstark sent his troops home) the iron born still killed quite a few when they invaded. Then you had the battle of the bastards and before that the battle with stannis. Then you have the battle with the dead. If the north can gather a thousand fighting men by this point I would be suprised. Even if cersei wins (she wouldn't have dragons) she could still send her people to take the north without a fight for the most part. So since independence isn't a choice should they back dany since she stood up for them and since cersei is bound to take vengence against anyone who sided with jon. Sansa has to see this now since they don't have the troops to fight off a pack of wolves much less a well provisioned southern army. And sansa of all people knows that if cersei wins then she and her entire house are dead. If dany wins then at the very least sansa still has a strong position at winterfell and her family is safe and maybe if jon marries dany then sansa will be the lady of winterfell and the warden of the north. I don't see this as being a hard choice for the northman now but what do you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradam Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 what point would invading the north serve Cersi? Revenge I guess? The land mass is to huge, she'd never be able to hold it. Winter is set in, isn't any gold to steal, they are no threat to her. There was a scene back where she was explaining to Joffery about how the north works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinscS2 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 If the northerners has any honor what so ever they should back up the person who just saved them and their lands. With that said, we've been shown over and over that while there do exist some honorable houses (Starks, Mormonts) the northerners in general mainly consists of xenophobic, selfish, racist assholes, so I wouldn't at all surprised if they leave Daenerys with a kthxbai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Speaking of Northmen, will we see retribution against House Glover? Robertt Glover clearly broke an oath against his liege lord, after being forgiven once already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan12 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 12 hours ago, snow is the man said: The North will never be able to have it's independence now. If they side with dany they join the seven kingdoms. If they stand by the side and do nothing then cersei will conquer them once she's won or Dany will when she's won. Cersei may not be able to take moat cailian but she could invade by sea and since the north has very few fighting men they couldn't put up a real fight. Think about it. Pretty much all of the northmen rob took south died or were captured. That was about half of the northern forces if I remember correctly. However even if half made it back (karstark sent his troops home) the iron born still killed quite a few when they invaded. Then you had the battle of the bastards and before that the battle with stannis. Then you have the battle with the dead. If the north can gather a thousand fighting men by this point I would be suprised. Even if cersei wins (she wouldn't have dragons) she could still send her people to take the north without a fight for the most part. We don't know what happened to House Glover or House Manderly. The north can still rally more men, enough to protect themselves from Iron Born. The North failed in WotFK against the iron born because Theon took Winterfell by knowing how the Northmen would react and he knew that castle very well inside and out. Winterfell is the capital of North, and the most important location of it, when you lose Winterfell you lose the North. Even the Boltons after Red Wedding and without having any back up from the great houses like Umbers and Manderlys, they managed to took Winterfell back and killed most of the ironborns in a very short time, then the Boltons even defeated Stannis's army. I would say if House Glover and House Manderly are still alive, House Stark is still in a better position than the Boltons were after Red Wedding. So, there is no way Euron can take the North against the current forces of House Stark and even if he did, he can't hold it for a long, Yara already said they can't resist the northerners on the land for a long. Especially now that the Freys are dead, Riverlands are in a huge mess, and the Lannisters with their remaining forces can't defend their own homeland and KL at the same time and go to North and fight with the Starks. The North is pretty much secured after the dead of Boltons, The North doesn't even have a problem with the wildlings now since they are following Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinscS2 Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said: Speaking of Northmen, will we see retribution against House Glover? Robertt Glover clearly broke an oath against his liege lord, after being forgiven once already... I hope we do. If we don't see him ever again, I'm just gonna assume that the AotD took a slight detour to Deepwood Motte before going to Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starklover Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 3 hours ago, TNTW said: I just posted a something that could be connected. If the leak about Tyrion betraying the Starks is true, maybe this is why? Maybe Starks\North don't want to go south, and thus Tyrion schemes, to force their hand. Is later found out, maybe by something Bran sees? IDK, lol. i will say it again i doubt tyrion will betray the starks for his sister. i have he is not hand anymore though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longest night Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 4 hours ago, Ser Uncle P said: Speaking of Northmen, will we see retribution against House Glover? Robertt Glover clearly broke an oath against his liege lord, after being forgiven once already... There was no actual liege lord. Jon was king, but not lord of Winterfell. Once Jon laid down his crown, he laid down any oath made to that crown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 24 minutes ago, longest night said: There was no actual liege lord. Jon was king, but not lord of Winterfell. Once Jon laid down his crown, he laid down any oath made to that crown. Hmm...his exact words were "House Glover will stand behind House Stark as it has for a 1000 years" 280 of those thousand years were to a Lord Stark who served as warden under a Targaryen monarch... The fact that Jon surrendered his title of King does not mean he surrenders claims of Lordship over vassals of Winterfell. Clean cut case to root Glover "out of his keep and hang him for an oath breaker" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longest night Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Just now, Ser Uncle P said: Hmm...his exact words were "House Glover will stand behind House Stark as it has for a 1000 years" 280 of those thousand years were to a Lord Stark who served as warden under a Targaryen monarch... The fact that Jon surrendered his title of King does not mean he surrenders claims of Lordship over vassals of Winterfell. Clean cut case to root Glover "out of his keep and hang him for an oath breaker" Jon isn't a Stark and Sansa is a Bolton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Yes I know, but Glover swore an oath to House Stark as headed by Jon. As far as we know he is still the head of House Stark and can call on Glover to aid Winterfell per the words of his oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNTW Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 38 minutes ago, princess brittany said: i will say it again i doubt tyrion will betray the starks for his sister. i have he is not hand anymore though For his sister? No, I don't think he will either. Not on show, not in books. For Jaime? Yes, on show at least. Of course it's more complicated in the books after Jaime revealed the truth to Tyrion about Tysha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longest night Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said: Yes I know, but Glover swore an oath to House Stark as headed by Jon. As far as we know he is still the head of House Stark and can call on Glover to aid Winterfell per the words of his oath. He doesn't lead house Stark. In fact, the show writers were so stupid, House Stark would die out if it wasn't for handwaving their stupidity away. At this point, Glover is the most intelligent sane person in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 The Northmen will fight for independence from Southern rule until either they are ALL dead or the following conditions are met: 1. There is a mechanism in place to actually FORCE any Southern ruler to actually protect them when required. Noone sitting on the Iron Throne has ever actually helped the North face threats (various Kings beyond the wall, the Ironborn raiders etc.). The North owes no loyalty to a "Protector of the Realm" who does not protect them. IN PERPETUITY. 2. Their culture and values are treated as PART of the governing ethos, not curious sideshows. 3. They chose their own leaders. These are never imposed from the outside. I am quite sure that this hatred of Southern rule is so deep, for the above reasons, that if Sansa does not appear to be as strongly against as they are, the Northerners will simply ditch both her and Jon and pick themselves a new leader. This is why Sansa is playing the game the way she is. It is also a defensive strategy against Cersei, to ensure that Cersei can not exploit Northern divisions to undermine herself and Jon and do the Red Wedding all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Just now, longest night said: He doesn't lead house Stark. In fact, the show writers so stupid came up with the presence, House Stark would die out if it wasn't for handwaving their stupidity away. Dany referred to him as "Warden of the North" which is a title that goes hand in hand with "Lord of Winterfell". Regardless, Glover swore an oath to Jon as well and reneged on it. Jon is entitled to have Glover executed for this, but show probably won't bother dealing with this. More likely to focus on soap opera between Sansa and Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Shouldn't the traitorous Glovers be dead now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longest night Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said: Dany referred to him as "Warden of the North" which is a title that goes hand in hand with "Lord of Winterfell". Regardless, Glover swore an oath to Jon as well and reneged on it. Jon is entitled to have Glover executed for this, but show probably won't bother dealing with this. More likely to focus on soap opera between Sansa and Dany. No, Warden of the North is an appointed title. Anyone can be the Warden of the North if appointed, hence why Littlefinger tried to make a deal to be appointed it. He was appointed the title by Daenerys which none of the North have pledged their loyalty to. Glover swore an oath to "Jon Snow, king in the North". He's no longer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 Just now, Cas Stark said: Shouldn't the traitorous Glovers be dead now? Deepwood Motte is not on the road between Last Hearth and Winterfell. So AOTD can't have attached them. (Though anythings possible for D &D) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longest night Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 I just find it hilarious that of all the people that are playing within the rules of this idiotic writing, it's one lone northern lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Uncle P Posted May 3, 2019 Share Posted May 3, 2019 1 minute ago, longest night said: Glover swore an oath to "Jon Snow, king in the North". He's no longer that. His oath was primarily to House Stark. He was renewing his oath to House Stark, as well as Jon. Jon changing titles doesn't nullify the oath to House Stark!! Being a vassal means sending aid when your feudal overlord is in need. I think House Stark was in need...and Glover refused again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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