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LearnToBeNoOne

Have people given up all hope?

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Posted (edited)

Everyone who ever believed Dany as the savior: “I allowed myself to hope … perhaps I wanted to … we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe.” 

- Maester Aemon

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I think this episode clearly set things on one path. The battle now is between Jon and Dany, and everyone and Dany. Sad irony, Dany is fulfilling Cersei's fears and predictions for her, coming in mad burning things, with a wild bunch of Dothraki crashing everyone's party.

Exactly, it's like there was no alternative to begin with. Although things went better than expected the series wanted to portray the idea that Cersei remaining there would have been a smaller cost to pay than what Dany paid to obtain it.

Just not sure if this was GRRM's desires or D&D's but what we do know is GRRM draws parallels to history.

Does it raise the question we've all been witnessing in the real world for a long time now, is the cost of removing a dictator worth the innocent lives lost? If this is what GRRM was trying to portay it would have been done eloquently not like this in a fit of rage imo. D&D did it for the shock value once again.

Clearly also to give Bran more purpose too, he's the one that brought R+L = J to light so that would be pointless if they didn't build on it. Although I wouldn't put it past these writers.

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2 hours ago, bent branch said:

I am reiterating my opinion that if Jon ends up on the throne, Aegon will end up on the throne in the books. I think they gave Jon the name Aegon Targaryen, because that is who ends up on the throne and in D&D logic it would be the same ending as the books.

It wouldn't be a shock if it did go down that route, it's sort of like that information makes it a destiny and everything is built around that. Unless there's a twist in the books and he doesn't make it, being 'the heir' doesn't always necessarily mean you will sit the Iron Throne.

In the series everything just seems to be happening way too quickly, they should have made a few more episodes at least.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She can burn all of Westeros for all I care - they would deserve it if so much a single of the people there behaved even remotely in the way any of the show characters behave - but SHE NEEDS A FUCKING REASON FOR DOING SO!

And she didn't get any of those.

I mean, what is the fucking point? They fucking surrendered and the fucking castle where the fucking enemy is in gets spared for what seems to be half and hour? What is the bloody point?!

If she wants to slaughter people she can use her troops for that - this would also allow her to torture them cruelly before she kills them, now that I think of it.

But the city and its people? And the Red Keep? She wants to rule that fucking place.

This is the exact reason why I made this post, I wanted to at least be able to say it wasn't so bad after all that even though we're disappointed there's a little compensation. I couldn't find any.

You've pretty much won the war, it's just a matter of time until you take the castle - I know she's growing impatient but not impatient enough to throw away all those years of patience over a couple of hours maybe. It was definitely unnecessary and uncalled for her to burn down the place and people she wishes to rule.

The army could have gathered around any Lannister loyalists, imprisoned them and tortured - you know the usual stuff that happens in war. Burning however should not have come before she had time to establish herself. If after claiming the IT she decided that she still wants to go down the Mad Queen route and rain dracarys over those who did not bend the knee or to spread enough fear for her to rule with it then at least you could say that was here reason, even though it's still extreme for her to do what her father intended on doing being very well much aware of the costs. Either way with all the foreshadowing and thing's she said out of rage in terms of the show this is not the route she set out on, things change yes but not like this.

I just found it extremely lazy and a quick way for them to elevate the importance of Bran without having to do much writing. Her going insane and burning everything down helps to fulfill the reason behind why R+L = J was shared by Bran helping to put Jon on the IT would explain why he was brought back to life - to be 'the ruler' that Westeros needs.

D&D had their version of characters and their story in mind, it was going to be that way regardless of whether it made sense or not.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, George gave them his planned ending a couple of years ago - but I say pretty much nothing of that made it into the show. We had ample evidence of that in the Others plot.

Also, there is literally no chance in hell that the Kingslanders would ever resist a Targaryen restoration, especially not after she just saved all of mankind. Nor is any person in the book going to make a fuzz about people being butchered in a sack. That's part of medieval warfare. Tywin sacked KL, the Greens sacked Tumbleton during the Dance, Bittersteel sacked Qohor, Stannis would have sacked KL, etc.

If it came to a point when it was necessary to destroy KL doing that would most likely be entirely justified.

GRRM can give them all the advice he wants, it's theirs to take or not it seems. It's hard to accept that Season 8 was based around GRRM's desires, I just don't see things being done in this way. Even if there are similarities it wouldn't be so lazy.

Dany burning the place down seems cruel yet I'm with you that although the other names you mentioned would have tried to conquer with different methods there would have been no cost that they weren't willing to pay. So if it meant that at the Castle Gates the only way to get to the IT was to destroy the place or turn back, we know it would be the former.

Also we know how disgusting The Mountain is why is he any different to a Dothraki soldier? The Mountain's men were probably similar to him and many of the Lannister soldiers - they're just men of war that literally take advantage of those who they defeat, does it make it right? No but this isn't a story based on morality, it's meant to show the good the bad and the ugly and that ultimately there's a cost to sit on the IT.

I just don't like the way they broke down those costs or made Dany seem like the worst person in Westeros.

Like I said on a previous post we know GRRM takes a lot of influence from history so maybe D&D tried to reference that but in a way but miserably failed. We're in a situation that we have seen in the real world many times. Is the cost of taking down the dictator worth all the innocent lives lost? D&D just stopped focusing on the horrendous crimes of that dictator and let the person trying to remove that dictator regardless of having basically won the war and it was only a matter of time before Cersei would have to yield. Yet of course. the extreme route was still taken and that's with fire & blooD which was great to destroy the Iron Fleet and Qyburn's defense. Just because she's a Targaryen and her family have a history - it doesn't mean she has to be the same. It also seems like these flaws or stereotypes pretty much only apply to Targaryen's as if Westeros is a holy place without them.

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On 5/13/2019 at 12:20 AM, Targaryen Peas said:

This is definitely the worst use of maths I've seen. 

I laughed when I read this, I did say in the last line that my math was likely f'd up~!!!

Since you are likely better, and most people are, can you get the percentage I was looking for?

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On 5/12/2019 at 9:12 PM, sifth said:

So bittersweet to GRRM is Dany losing her mind and becoming her father and possibly Jon killing her in the final?

Since when does losing your temper mean losing your mind?

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I can only think that over the final 1500 pages or whatever of two novels, we see her struggle with herself more and more. There was that pretty telling quote near the finale of ADWD where she is listening to a whispering in her mind, saying

Quote

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. "Fire and Blood." Daenerys told the swaying grass.

That's pretty minor, but perhaps over the course of her POV chapters, we see her struggle more and more with herself, wanting to let out that nasty Targaryen fury. Then in ADoS, she's losing people left and right, she's pretty goddamn terrifying, and we are heartbroken that she's losing it, but still hoping Jon can reel her in. I guess I'm an optimist, but I feel like Book Dany can still fall completely from grace and commit an atrocity without being so stupifyingly illogical as we saw in this season. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Since when does losing your temper slaughtering innocent people, wholesale, and with wanton abandon for 15 minutes, mean losing your mind?

fixed

Edited by Relic

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54 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Since when does losing your temper mean losing your mind?

punching a wall is losing your temper, murdering millions for no reason is losing your mind.

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1 minute ago, sifth said:

punching a wall is losing your temper, murdering millions for no reason is losing your mind.

What's the difference between losing your temper and murdering one person versus losing your temper and murdering ten people? 

Or a thousand? Or a million?

I think we're using "losing your mind" strangely here. We're talking about evil, not about insanity.

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On 5/13/2019 at 12:11 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Everyone who ever believed Dany as the savior: “I allowed myself to hope … perhaps I wanted to … we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe.” 

- Maester Aemon

No. And don't preen.

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27 minutes ago, Argonath Diver said:

I can only think that over the final 1500 pages or whatever of two novels, we see her struggle with herself more and more. There was that pretty telling quote near the finale of ADWD where she is listening to a whispering in her mind, saying

Quote

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. "Fire and Blood." Daenerys told the swaying grass.

<snip>

Where we were left is that is something she said to herself in a feverish, light-headed state and therefore not something to take seriously. What was left unresolved is whether she remembers that when she comes to rights again, whether it still rings true for her, and if so, what is she going to differently because of that? Where that goes, if anywhere, is one of the things I'm most curious to learn when and if WOW comes out.

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Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

commit an atrocity without being so stupifyingly illogical as we saw in this season. 

Many atrocities are illogical though, I think GRRM would still write it like that. I think she realized the people would never love her so she wanted to rule by fear. That created a justification/cover in her own mind to do what she really wanted, which was punish "en masse" for losing her dragon and Missandei.  She knows Jon is the true heir and that he's more loved and that his secret is out. Dany can't handle these stresses and succumbs to power.

"In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dbunting said:

I laughed when I read this, I did say in the last line that my math was likely f'd up~!!!

Since you are likely better, and most people are, can you get the percentage I was looking for?

I didn't mean to be mean, losing Dany is putting me in a bad mood. But statistically you can't use the total number of people here compared to the total of GoT viewers (the way you did)

What would have made sense is saying:

Let's consider this forum as a sub partition of the whole GoT viewers. If there's 16% of people giving 1/10 for an episode (or the season) we can probably conclude that on the greater scale (the total viewers) at least 16% will put 1/10 (considering that we have about the same number of casual/hardcore fans)

For episode 5 the total of negative percentage <= 5/10 is 51%

So 51% of viewers didn't like it (On the whole GoT viewers, so it is very bad)

 

As for that percentage you were talking about, if I understood correctly you are trying to compute the percentage that this forum represents in the total of GoT viewers? then it should be something like this: (125000/16000000)*100 = 0.78%

So we represent 0.78% of total GoT viewers. 

Edited by Targaryen Peas

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2 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

I didn't mean to be mean, losing Dany is putting me in a bad mood. But statistically you can't use the total number of people here compared to the total of GoT viewers (the way you did)

What would have made sense is saying:

Let's consider this forum as a sub partition of the whole GoT viewers. If there's 16% of people giving 1/10 for an episode (or the season) we can probably conclude that on the greater scale (the total viewers) at least 16% will put 1/10 (considering that we have about the same number of casual/hardcore fans)

For episode 5 the total of negative percentage <= 5/10 is 51%

So 51% of viewers didn't like it (On the whole GoT viewers, so it is very bad)

 

As for that percentage you were talking about, if I understood correctly you are trying to compute the percentage that this forum represents in the total of GoT viewers? then it should be something like this: (125000/16000000)*100 = 0.78%

So we represent 0.78% of total GoT viewers. 

HEY!!! I did have the math right at less than 1%!!! I take that as a small victory!

The point was more that, (and not explained very well), the people here are the rabid few, not the casual vast majority. And the rabid few always have stronger reactions to anything in life, so you can't use this forum as a measuring stick for viewership as a whole.

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12 minutes ago, dbunting said:

HEY!!! I did have the math right at less than 1%!!! I take that as a small victory!

The point was more that, (and not explained very well), the people here are the rabid few, not the casual vast majority. And the rabid few always have stronger reactions to anything in life, so you can't use this forum as a measuring stick for viewership as a whole.

Yes it was right haha! 

Actually you can take it, statistically it'll even itself somehow. But I really think it was way more rabid on other platforms.

First time I see my Reddit/FB/Twitter feeds getting that violent, and it never stopped since Ep3. 

But I agree with you, in French we say something like "A falling tree makes more sound than a growing forest"

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22 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

Yes it was right haha! 

Actually you can take it, statistically it'll even itself somehow. But I really think it was way more rabid on other platforms.

First time I see my Reddit/FB/Twitter feeds getting that violent, and it never stopped since Ep3. 

But I agree with you, in French we say something like "A falling tree makes more sound than a growing forest"

I like that a lot! True to what we are talking about, the noisy few outweigh the quiet majority in life. For every one tree falling there are a thousand growing.

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2 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

I can only think that over the final 1500 pages or whatever of two novels, we see her struggle with herself more and more. There was that pretty telling quote near the finale of ADWD where she is listening to a whispering in her mind, saying

Quote

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. "Fire and Blood." Daenerys told the swaying grass.

That's pretty minor, but perhaps over the course of her POV chapters, we see her struggle more and more with herself, wanting to let out that nasty Targaryen fury. Then in ADoS, she's losing people left and right, she's pretty goddamn terrifying, and we are heartbroken that she's losing it, but still hoping Jon can reel her in. I guess I'm an optimist, but I feel like Book Dany can still fall completely from grace and commit an atrocity without being so stupifyingly illogical as we saw in this season. 

I feel like too many people read Dany's last chapter without considering what her whole arc in ADWD was about. The Meereen arc starts with her shedding her "fire and blood" dragon identity to focus on her Mhysa one. Throughout the book, she struggles because she's having an identity crisis, same as all the other protagonists. So by the end, when she's all "remember your words", she's not becoming extra cruel or heartless. She's just taking back her dragon side. Essentially, she's going back to where she was before she stopped in Meereen, because that is what is needed to defeat the slavers. "To go forward, I must go back."

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