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Quillon

Daenerys has always been a killer

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On 5/15/2019 at 10:30 PM, Quillon said:

Tywin is cruel yes, he has his mad dogs for his dirtiest works. I can't compare Tywin to Dany cos Tywin never burned people around him and just stared with pride. Maybe he's just as merciless as Dany. Hours ago I read a Tyrion chapter where it is said, something like "Tywin was never the same man after Joanna died, she took his best parts with her." But mercilessness =/= craziness, which you act like I claimed it is so.

Daenerys might have committed the mass-murder out of emotions and because she want to try "rule by fear". Tywin on the other side commands war crimes out of cold blooded rational logic (when they give him an advantage, he has no problem with it). You can see that when he sacked Kingslanding. He send the Mountain to capture the children of Rhaegar Targaryen and his wife. The Mountain raped and murdered them brutally. That was not what Tywin had intended, but it fit into his plan and he didn't punish the Mountain for committing these crimes, because in his mind a brute can be useful in some situations. That shows thats Tywin didn't have any problem committing awful crimes, when they are helpful.

In my opinion thats not really better than a crazy person, who kills persons without any reason.

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Dany is a brave and charismatic leader who combines a high degree of personal courage and devotion to her followers with a strong streak of self-righteous cruelty.

This episode doesn't change that.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Haskelltier,



I'm sorry I've been away for a while.  I just got around to watching E5 this morning! :-O

So many now are thinking that Dany really is a tyrant, yet I think somewhat differently.  I think she was heartbroken by Jon because they were so in love.  He rejects her because she is his aunt, but she does not only want his loyalty as his Queen. 

It angers her; so she takes it our on Cersei, and all who she could think of as an enemy.  Sorry for the crossover, but who here has seen the show "Snapped"? That is about the same thing:  people who were/are in love but one crosses the other and the spurned destroys property, or even lives of the ones he/she loves.  Of course this is wrong.

My main point is that Dany is beside herself. ..

Edited by LadyNoOne

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On 5/13/2019 at 3:59 AM, Winter prince said:

She no longer trusted her advisor that was left.  She has been suspicious of Tyrion ever since making it to Westeros.  Why would she actually believe the bells meant surrender?

 

EXACTLY this is what I been saying ........

Why trust Tyrion?

Also IMO the random stocks of wildfire going off were traps in which Danny saved some of her troops from a green fiery death. Cersie is the type to surrender but not really lol. 

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11 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

EXACTLY this is what I been saying ........

Why trust Tyrion?

Also IMO the random stocks of wildfire going off were traps in which Danny saved some of her troops from a green fiery death. Cersie is the type to surrender but not really lol. 

Even if she didn't believe tyrion, there was no reason to burn the city. Her troops could've taken control of the city with far fewer civilian casualties.

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On 5/13/2019 at 5:03 PM, Raksha 2014 said:

 

We probably should have guessed, when she watched her brother's horrible death with no discernible emotion, and said 'he was no true dragon; fire cannot kill a dragon' or whatever.  (not that I thought Viserys didn't deserve to die, but he was her brother and you'd think she'd have regretted, afterwards, his being such a fool as to push Drogo into killing him)

Daenerys used to care about all the smallfolk; but not anymore; she just roasted thousands of them and also caused them to die from the collapse of the buildings her dragonfire destroyed.

Not flinching in the face of death is pretty much something every character has done- Jon killed half hand, executed that boy and chose loyalty over love. Ned beheads a deserter and 9 year old Bran is congratulated for not flinching at the sight. The examples are so numerous that it seems crazy to say that her being a little dissociative at her brother's death moments after he had threatened to cut her unborn child from her belly is a sure sign of madness, when not flinching is pretty much the price for being a leader in this world.

As for caring for the smallfolk - that really was the quality that set her apart from everyone else, it was her mercy towards the Lamb Men that culminated in the horrible losses of husband and child in s1, and yet from then on, over the course of 7 seasons - including right up until 2 episodes earlier - she had been close to revolutionary in her concern for the small folk and real actions and sacrifices taken on their behalf. Even her cruelties were inflicted in their name. And then Poof! just like that she suddenly becomes a genocidal monster. There simply is no explanation, narratively, logically or any way at all that can explain her burning the whole City. Even if she wanted vengeance against Cersei she could have just burned the Red Keep - or captured her and Burnt her. People don't just suddenly go mad in this world or that of GOT. Even if you want to blame genetics it was clearly established that her father and brother did not suddenly snap  but had gone pretty crazy long before the final act that did them in.

At the beginning of this episode Dany is actually startlingly clear about what is going on around her, and there are no signs of being disconnected from reality at all. 

There is no sense to be made of the whole genocidal mad queen twist because it makes no sense as written. 

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On 5/18/2019 at 12:54 AM, Johan Wehtje said:

Not flinching in the face of death is pretty much something every character has done- Jon killed half hand, executed that boy and chose loyalty over love. Ned beheads a deserter and 9 year old Bran is congratulated for not flinching at the sight. The examples are so numerous that it seems crazy to say that her being a little dissociative at her brother's death moments after he had threatened to cut her unborn child from her belly is a sure sign of madness, when not flinching is pretty much the price for being a leader in this world.

As for caring for the smallfolk - that really was the quality that set her apart from everyone else, it was her mercy towards the Lamb Men that culminated in the horrible losses of husband and child in s1, and yet from then on, over the course of 7 seasons - including right up until 2 episodes earlier - she had been close to revolutionary in her concern for the small folk and real actions and sacrifices taken on their behalf. Even her cruelties were inflicted in their name. And then Poof! just like that she suddenly becomes a genocidal monster. There simply is no explanation, narratively, logically or any way at all that can explain her burning the whole City. Even if she wanted vengeance against Cersei she could have just burned the Red Keep - or captured her and Burnt her. People don't just suddenly go mad in this world or that of GOT. Even if you want to blame genetics it was clearly established that her father and brother did not suddenly snap  but had gone pretty crazy long before the final act that did them in.

At the beginning of this episode Dany is actually startlingly clear about what is going on around her, and there are no signs of being disconnected from reality at all. 

There is no sense to be made of the whole genocidal mad queen twist because it makes no sense as written. 

Well, after having viewed E06, I think our dear Dany has gone completely mad, and what Jon did was a favor to both her and the realm.   Varys was right.  I have speculated about a more democratic society, and it looks like we're headed towards the "electoral college" version :)  A bit of good news, if you ask me.

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19 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Dany likes to kill (burn usually) people, Jon doesn't.

Actually, one of my friends had this pinned since S3!  He thought that Dany was going to be a  cruel tyrant, and was showing signs.  She was my fav character, and I completely ignored him.  I knew I lost her at "The Bells".  I kept thinking, "Stop, Dany, stop.  You've won."  After that she lost my support, not that it means anything, but I do think she lost a great number of supporters, as well.

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Posted (edited)

I see a lot of people arguing wether Daenerys has always been evil (and there are who think that if it's supposed to be the case, then it was poorly established), or if she was good and turned evil all of a sudden (and there are who think that if it's supposed to be the case, then it was poorly established)...
The few past days, i have watched the show again, from the beginning, knowing what would happen, and something struck me.
Her dark side was indeed always here, from the first season. For example, you can see that everytime she watches someone die (especially her brother, even if he was evil... for comparaison, look at Tyrion, who tries to save his sister, eventhough she hates him, and cries when he finds her dead), she shows no emotion, no sadness, no disgust, nothing (with a few notable exceptions, like Jorah or Missandeï). Even when she watches the former master being ripped in halves by her dragons in Mereen... to me it's not a sign of a great mental health.
However, there was also, from the beginning, a bright side of her, and i don't think she was just pretending.
They say that everytime a Taragryen is born, the gods flip a coin... I think her coin had landed on the edge and she was dancing between her light and dark sides... until the two last seasons (and especially season 8) where she lost everything that helped her balance her two sides (her dragons, Jorah, Missandeï, the love of the peoples she wanted to rule...) and in the end, the coin fell on the wrong side.
So, those who complain that a credible character developpement from a good Dany to a bad Dany was not done properly are right about this, but this is because it's not what was happening, Dany had always been half good and half bad, and she had to balance her two sides. That is why the events that made her loose balance had to happen in a short time, because what made her "turn" had to be something she wouldn't have time to balance.

Edited by beeeeeen

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I just came across this video, and it turns out that there had been (visual) parallels to Hitler, specifically "Triumph of the Will", since early seasons:

 

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Any mass social change generally has death as part of it and on average the people she killed were wholly deserving of it. I'm not sure why her killing people is even considered remotely bad when considering how rulers have always ruled(in the show and IRL). The only questionable one was Kings Landing but...special circumstances.  

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15 hours ago, Techmaester said:

Any mass social change generally has death as part of it and on average the people she killed were wholly deserving of it. I'm not sure why her killing people is even considered remotely bad when considering how rulers have always ruled(in the show and IRL). The only questionable one was Kings Landing but...special circumstances.  

Problem is that Daenerys has always had Messianic complex. Same as with Stannis, just worse; yet people hated on Stannis and didn't hate Daenerys. Weird.

Half decisions she had made were questionable. She had always been mass murderer in coming.

 

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On 5/13/2019 at 2:56 PM, adiman83 said:

In her madness, I think Daenerys became what she (subconsciously) always wanted to be - a Valyrian dragonlord. 

I think you are spot on. Daenerys has always been (in my opinion) Old Valyria's last hurrah. The combination of magic, dragons, subduing the Neo-Ghiscaris of slaver's bay (mirroring the Valyrian wars against Old Ghis) just screams Old Valyria to me. It seems that Jon  inherited the Feudal Westerosi side of Targaryen Power and Danerys inherited the Old Valyrian Dragonlord side.

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On 5/17/2019 at 10:09 AM, Haskelltier said:

 Daenerys might have committed the mass-murder out of emotions and because she want to try "rule by fear". Tywin on the other side commands war crimes out of cold blooded rational logic (when they give him an advantage, he has no problem with it). You can see that when he sacked Kingslanding. He send the Mountain to capture the children of Rhaegar Targaryen and his wife. The Mountain raped and murdered them brutally. That was not what Tywin had intended, but it fit into his plan and he didn't punish the Mountain for committing these crimes, because in his mind a brute can be useful in some situations. That shows thats Tywin didn't have any problem committing awful crimes, when they are helpful.

In my opinion thats not really better than a crazy person, who kills persons without any reason.

It is better precisely because crazy person may kill people without reason: you have no hope of knowing what you can do to avoid being killed. At least with Tywin, you know you will be fine as long as you stay out of his way.

On 5/31/2019 at 6:52 AM, Br16 said:

I think you are spot on. Daenerys has always been (in my opinion) Old Valyria's last hurrah. The combination of magic, dragons, subduing the Neo-Ghiscaris of slaver's bay (mirroring the Valyrian wars against Old Ghis) just screams Old Valyria to me. It seems that Jon  inherited the Feudal Westerosi side of Targaryen Power and Danerys inherited the Old Valyrian Dragonlord side.

Makes sense.

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That moment when Jon looks at Daenerys when she burns Varys actually shows that Jon is also realizing Daenerys's true nature in that moment but then he still refuses to believe what she really is.

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On 5/31/2019 at 7:52 AM, Br16 said:

I think you are spot on. Daenerys has always been (in my opinion) Old Valyria's last hurrah.

Her speech after the destruction of King's Landing supports that as well. It is clear that if Jon wouldn't have assassinated her, she would have rebuilt her ancestors' empire. And I seriously doubt there was an army in the world capable of stopping her.

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12 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

Her speech after the destruction of King's Landing supports that as well. It is clear that if Jon wouldn't have assassinated her, she would have rebuilt her ancestors' empire. And I seriously doubt there was an army in the world capable of stopping her.

All it takes to kill Drogon, one Ballista scorpion shot through its neck could do it (if Bronn could hit Drogon's head instead of its shoulder for example), then she is finished, she couldn't hold the kingdoms with that poor political abilities and that ruthless attitude, eventually the Unsullied and the Dothraki would lose to the Westeros armies and she would either escape to Essos to hide with Daario Naharis or she would get captured and executed for her crimes.

Edited by RYShh

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1 minute ago, RYShh said:

All it takes to kill Drogon, one Ballista scorpion shot through its neck could do it, then she is finished, she couldn't hold the kingdoms with that poor political abilities and that ruthless attitude, eventually the Unsullied and the Dothraki would lose to the Westeros armies and she would either escape to Essos or gets captured and executed for her crimes.

Don't compare an injured dragon that could barely keep himself in the air with Drogon. Both in that episode as well as episode 5, Euron's fleet failed miserably to hit Drogon. As for her political abilities, I agree she has no talent for politics. Her only real talent is conquest, as Daario pointed out. But what lord of Westeros (or Essos) do you think will dare to challenge her rule? Considering what she did to King's Landing, she wouldn't have shied away form burning the lands and people of anyone in open rebellion. Knowing your family might be ash tomorrow serves as a pretty good deterrent.

Now the question is would her descendants manage to hold on to her potential empire? I believe the answer is no. It was the same during the Conqueror's time. As long as he ruled, the former kingdoms didn't rebel because they were afraid they would share Harren the Black's fate. But his successors slowly started to lose grip on the seven kingdoms. 

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