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Nerevanin

the death of Jaime and Cersei & prophecies

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3 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

No. Valonqar means ''little brother''

It's gender neutral and can mean brother or sister. But that is too vague. It can't just be anybody who happens to be a younger sibling, what would be the point of the prophesy if it only narrowed things down to a couple million possible people? Without doing a fair bit of reaching and rationalizing the valonquar could only reasonably be Jaime or more likely Tyrion. But in the end it was nobody, so that part of the prophesy was worthless. It's very odd tho', the show made sure to gave us the young beautiful queen in Margaery, Cersei's children died wearing gold, yet in the end they just punted the ball away with the valonquar. Very disappointing.

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6 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

How did you feel about it? I personally was disappointed by it because imo it felt very anticlimatic.

Also, what's up with the very discussed prophecies of valonquar and younger beautiful queen? So the queen is Dany just because she burned the city? And the valonquar are both Jaime and Tyrion because Tyrion freed Jaime and Jaime led Cersei to the basement where she was killed by collapsing walls? Feels cheap to me.

THAT'S WHAT I SAID!! How could they do that?! Of all the longest stretches of imagination...

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4 hours ago, Wildling Queen said:

I liked Cersei's ending. I didn't need a bunch of torture. As much as I hate Cersei, I also felt her character was in many ways a sympathetic one. Not that I have sympathy for her, but I understood some of her motivations. I found her ending to be rather poetic.

And wouldn't the valonquar be Daenerys? She's a younger sibling.

But the word is High Valyrian for "little brother". Maybe it didn't have to be her little brother, but it wasn't fulfilled. Only my opinion. I didn't need for her to be tortured, but the Valonquar was supposed to kill her. 

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14 minutes ago, Bud RR Martin said:

To be fair, Maggy the Frog didn't mention a Valonqar in the show.  I don't recall if it came up later.

Yeah, valonquar wasn't mentioned at all in the show (not sure why because the prophecy explained why Cersei hated Tyrion so much) but I still expected the prophecy to be fulfilled by Jaime killing Cersei.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Erkan12 said:

No. Valonqar means ''little brother''

Valonqar is a Valyrian word. Valyrian is a gender neutral language.

So the word for prince can refer to a male prince and a female prince (otherwise known as princess). And the word for younger brother can refer to a male younger brother or a female younger brother (otherwise known as a sister in our non-gendered language)

This was explained both in the show and in the books. Repeatedly. Where have you been?

This is a common fact in the real world. Most languages are either 100% intrinsically gendered, 100% gender neutral or have a gender neutral element in a gendered realm.

English is one of the few rare cases where we have to specify everything.

Interestingly enough, Maggy the Frog didn't tell Cersei that Cersei's little brother would be the one to kill her. Not only did Cersei come to that conclusion on her own, she took it a step further and made that entire part of the prophecy revolve around Tyrion.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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11 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Valonqar is a Valyrian word. Valyrian is a gender neutral language.

So the word for prince can refer to a male prince and a female prince (otherwise known as princess). And the word for younger brother can refer to a male younger brother or a female younger brother (otherwise known as a sister in our non-gendered language)

This was explained both in the show and in the books. Repeatedly. Where have you been?

This is a common fact in the real world. Most languages are either 100% intrinsically gendered, 100% gender neutral or have a gender neutral element in a gendered realm.

English is one of the few rare cases where we have to specify everything.

Interestingly enough, Maggy the Frog didn't tell Cersei that Cersei's little brother would be the one to kill her. Not only did Cersei come to that conclusion on her own, she took it a step further and made that entire part of the prophecy revolve around Tyrion.

 

22 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

It's gender neutral and can mean brother or sister. But that is too vague. It can't just be anybody who happens to be a younger sibling, what would be the point of the prophesy if it only narrowed things down to a couple million possible people? Without doing a fair bit of reaching and rationalizing the valonquar could only reasonably be Jaime or more likely Tyrion. But in the end it was nobody, so that part of the prophesy was worthless. It's very odd tho', the show made sure to gave us the young beautiful queen in Margaery, Cersei's children died wearing gold, yet in the end they just punted the ball away with the valonquar. Very disappointing.

What?

Hāedar means little sister... 

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4 hours ago, Wildling Queen said:

Are you sure? Just like the Valyrian word that meant "prince or princess that was promised" was gender-neutral, isn't it possible that "valonquar" is too?

And Jaime led her there, so it's possible that was fulfilling the prophecy, as well.

Yes, I am sure, Hāedar means little sister.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

 

What?

Hāedar means little sister... 

Where in the books have you seen this? Not on a Dothraki language wikipedia page, in the books.

Because Maester Aemon, who knows High Valyrian, notes that High Valyrian is gender neutral in A Feast for Crows and that the prince that Rhaegar and he had talked about is probably referring to a girl, a princess.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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47 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

But the word is High Valyrian for "little brother". Maybe it didn't have to be her little brother, but it wasn't fulfilled. Only my opinion. I didn't need for her to be tortured, but the Valonquar was supposed to kill her. 

True. It was also the actions of Tyrion and Jaime that led to her death, though, even if that wasn't either of their intentions.

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1 hour ago, Nihiloth90 said:

Who?

Jaime and Cersei. Those are the characters they regressed to from the middle seasons until their deaths. Larry, the idiot lunk, who follows Carol at every command. Carol, the good mother, who just cares for her children.

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8 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

How did you feel about it? I personally was disappointed by it because imo it felt very anticlimatic.

Also, what's up with the very discussed prophecies of valonquar and younger beautiful queen?

Discussed by the people who didn't notice that they were watching the show, not reading the books.

They probably still expect Willas Tyrell to play a major part, too.

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So do we know for sure they both died? There's no reason for them to survive into next week but was wondering if anyone else had that impression?

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Major disappointment. However, in a sense it could be a good thing if it means the book is different enough to surprise us.

 

Then again, if he finishes the books it will be 2040 and I will have to download the book for my virtual reality contact lense to read/watch.

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7 hours ago, hallam said:

The prophecies are a means of revealing the backstory which the show has avoided. They have make 80 hours of television as it is. So giving a full account of Robert's rebellion would have meant another season at least and the leads weren't going to do that.

The significance of the Prince who was Promised is clearly the big reveal in the book and it makes perfect sense for the show to tell us only what while the books also give the why. It is clear that the prophecy was the cause of the rift in the Targ camp that led to Robert's rebellion in the first place.

The books state emphatically that Valerian is gender neutral and Valonqar could be male or female.

No it doesn't. All the book says on the matter is that the word PRINCE is gender neutral. It NEVER claims that Valonqar is, or that gender somehow doesn't exist in the language.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Wildling Queen said:

Are you sure? Just like the Valyrian word that meant "prince or princess that was promised" was gender-neutral, isn't it possible that "valonquar" is too?

And Jaime led her there, so it's possible that was fulfilling the prophecy, as well.

The Valyrian word for prince or princess isn't "prince/princess" but "dragon" and the gender of a dragon is neutral. Since the Targs are "dragons", that's why it's translated into "prince/princess". Aemon is talking about the word "dragon" in Valyrian and how that is gender neutral. He says nothing about Valyrian being gender neutral for all words. And Valonquar is an entirely different word

Edited by sweetsunray

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Since Maggie's prophecy was already wrong before they filmed it on the show, giving it any weight seems pointless. (she had already had four children at that point).

 

The volonquar isn't even on the show, so D&D obviously didn't care about it.  Even if they did, once you expand it to mean either gender, it is about as meaningless of a prophecy as can be.  Any person in the history of mankind could be little brother in that case from a perspective.  A rock falling off a mountain could be classified as a little brother of the mountain...

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12 hours ago, hallam said:

The books state emphatically that Valerian is gender neutral and Valonqar could be male or female.

The exact quote from AFFC is:

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

The valonqar must be male.

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13 hours ago, TyrionFan82 said:

So do we know for sure they both died? There's no reason for them to survive into next week but was wondering if anyone else had that impression?

I'm pretty sure they're dead. We saw how some hundreds of kilos of stones were crumbling on them. I think that their heads were smashed like eggs and they were dead in a moment.

 

8 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

The exact quote from AFFC is:

"And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

The valonqar must be male.

One (linguistic) question: if you wanted to say that line in a gender neutral way in English, what would you say? "Its hands"? "Their hands?" Or you'd change the structure of the sentence like "the hands of valonquar"? I'm just curious. Btw, in my mother tongue, that line would be translated as "...valonquar obtočí své ruce..." and it's ambiguous if the valonquar is male or female.

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18 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

English is one of the few rare cases where we have to specify everything.

It's even "worse" in German. We literally have different gender words like duke/duchess or actor/actress for EVERYONE. Even something like "chimney sweepress". (sorry for being off-topic)

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