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Do you feel this show had any negative effect on how you view the books?

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Yes. I've never been so cool with the fact that GRRM might not finish the series as after this car crash. Now I pretty much hopes he won't and Dany won't be turned into another Mad Queen cliché, I get to keep some warmth in my heart for the ungrateful bitchy Starks and No-Arc-Jaime.

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On 7/7/2019 at 10:46 AM, Br16 said:

Oftentimes, a TV show imprints its adaptation onto book readers minds so that many become unable to imagine another aesthetical representation. However, not so in this case. Martin's writing remains a lot richer/deeply complex and is completely able to to inspire original imagination. The Essos Meereen plot and existence of (F)Aegon is so much better in the book.

In this particular case, its not really difficult to separate the books from the show. The book-plot is very good in contrast to the show-plot, which was full of holes and implausible actions, bad dialogues and badly done character development.

On 7/7/2019 at 10:46 AM, Br16 said:

I feel there will be another adaptation with even better actors/actresses in the future. Perhaps the worlds first multi billion dollar budget TV series truly bring Planetos to life? 

I don't see that happening. The expectations would be very high, all viewers (not only the book readers) know the story. Ned's beheading, the red wedding and so on wouldn't shock so many viewers. Investing multiple billions of dollars under these circumstances would be really risky. An animated adaptation would be possible. Like Avatar for example. With a very good story and all the freedom and possibilities you get from animation, you can deliver a nice plot with well written characters, dragons, huge battles with dragonfire and so on and you won't need billions of dollars for actors, CGI and so on.

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19 hours ago, Sigella said:

Yes. I've never been so cool with the fact that GRRM might not finish the series as after this car crash. Now I pretty much hopes he won't and Dany won't be turned into another Mad Queen cliché, I get to keep some warmth in my heart for the ungrateful bitchy Starks and No-Arc-Jaime.

Personally, I've no objection to the two last books depicting the corruption of Daenerys Targaryen (it that's how her character arc develops) so long as it's done intelligently and plausibly.

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1 hour ago, Haskelltier said:

don't see that happening. The expectations would be very high, all viewers (not only the book readers) know the story. Ned's beheading, the red wedding and so on wouldn't shock so many viewers. Investing multiple billions of dollars under these circumstances would be really risky. An animated adaptation would be possible. 

For some reason, I don't mind spoilers. Oftentimes, I would check out a movie or show's plot and wiki synopsis before deciding to watch it. I care only for the visuals, music, acting and quality. 

An animated version is a good idea, I really liked the Clone Wars animation, however, I feel Got still has a lot of unrealized potential and the HBO show simply wasnt high budget enough to cover the many battles and the full world building.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Personally, I've no objection to the two last books depicting the corruption of Daenerys Targaryen (it that's how her character arc develops) so long as it's done intelligently and plausibly.

I'm sure it will its just that I personally am not interested in yet another female leader that goes crazy and becomes a villain, its already been done millions of times.

 

From the beginning a girl getting the dragons and rising to power and ruling and conquering was interesting because its a story that hasn't really been told before but what the show made her is just boring. (to me that is)

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3 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I'm sure it will its just that I personally am not interested in yet another female leader that goes crazy and becomes a villain, its already been done millions of times.

Everything has been done a thousand times by now. There is rarely anything in fiction that is original anymore. Male rulers going crazy and becoming a villain has been done to death way more than the female equivalent.

5 minutes ago, Sigella said:

From the beginning a girl getting the dragons and rising to power and ruling and conquering was interesting because its a story that hasn't really been told before but what the show made her is just boring. (to me that is)

Yes the show did it badly. But IMO there is nothing wrong with a tragedy. A tragedy well told can be epic in itself. That's probably what GRRM would go for with Dany. She has her good and bad characteristics and they are in conflict with each other (just like the human heart). Her struggle can end in tragedy just as much as it can in triumph or even ambiguity. The important part is that she is neither ultimate evil nor ultimate good but grey like most people are.

As far as the topic question, I would say no. I'm capable of seeing the books and the show as completely different entities. They are too different for me so the show hasn't ruined anything.

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10 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Everything has been done a thousand times by now. There is rarely anything in fiction that is original anymore. Male rulers going crazy and becoming a villain has been done to death way more than the female equivalent.

Sure but most stories are about men right from the start so that doesn't say a lot. I've liked the originality of this series only to find out in the end it's all cliché, it's a messed up trick to play on your reader/viewer. Sure, this maybe could be done elegantly but it rather defeats the purpose of being read/viewed to present it as nonsensical.

22 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Yes the show did it badly. But IMO there is nothing wrong with a tragedy. A tragedy well told can be epic in itself. That's probably what GRRM would go for with Dany. She has her good and bad characteristics and they are in conflict with each other (just like the human heart). Her struggle can end in tragedy just as much as it can in triumph or even ambiguity. The important part is that she is neither ultimate evil nor ultimate good but grey like most people are.

Tragedys doesn't end in every protagonist getting their hearts desires. Tragedys end the opposite. Remember Dany turning antagonist means she deserved getting knifed. She wasn't grey anymore, she committed the worst act ever.

It's so clumsy it hurts to think about it. :frown5:

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Posted (edited)

It seems like GRRM wants to put readers in contradictory positions, I think he gets a kick out of that, like cognitive dissonance is his thing. Dany is obviously the vehicle for that. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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16 hours ago, Sigella said:

Sure but most stories are about men right from the start so that doesn't say a lot. I've liked the originality of this series only to find out in the end it's all cliché, it's a messed up trick to play on your reader/viewer. Sure, this maybe could be done elegantly but it rather defeats the purpose of being read/viewed to present it as nonsensical.

I don't see any trick here. When I look at Daenerys, I see a promising ruler with revolutionary ideas, who has a lot of problems to solve to implement those ideas. And there are moments in which she acts cruelly and brutally. So Daenerys is a gray character (and thats good, because white or black characters are often boring) and she definitely shows signs that she could committ mass-murder under the right circumstances. So are her good deeds pointless or nonsensical? No, in the contrary, they add to her character development and and make her an interesting character.

16 hours ago, Sigella said:

Tragedys doesn't end in every protagonist getting their hearts desires. Tragedys end the opposite. Remember Dany turning antagonist means she deserved getting knifed. She wasn't grey anymore, she committed the worst act ever.

Isn't it a tragedy if a promising person with well meant ideas ends up the opposite way?

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16 hours ago, Sigella said:

It's so clumsy it hurts to think about it.

I don't have a problem with Daenerys turning mad, the crucial point is how it happens. If its done in a plausible, believable way, thats okay. The showrunners didn't manage to do that and thats bad. George could very well do it in his books.

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1 hour ago, Haskelltier said:

I don't see any trick here. When I look at Daenerys, I see a promising ruler with revolutionary ideas, who has a lot of problems to solve to implement those ideas. And there are moments in which she acts cruelly and brutally. So Daenerys is a gray character (and thats good, because white or black characters are often boring) and she definitely shows signs that she could committ mass-murder under the right circumstances. So are her good deeds pointless or nonsensical? No, in the contrary, they add to her character development and and make her an interesting character.

Isn't it a tragedy if a promising person with well meant ideas ends up the opposite way?

Daenerys doesn't just have her own problems, as at the end of ADWD, but also some of the most brutal and/or sinister people in the world have reasons of their own to enter her service (unknown to her).  Both Euron and Victarion want to rule Westeros with her;  the Red Priests are on the point of starting a holy war in her name;  the Tattered Prince is about to switch sides in return for Pentos.  Assuming she takes control of some large faction of the Dothraki, she's suddenly going to find herself in charge of immense political, military, and religious power, but will she be able to keep it under control?

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Yes, these are definitely interesting developments and I look forward how these will end in the books. There are many possibilities for interesting stories and thats one thing I like about the book. There seldom is one way to go and the protagonists have to choose between different paths based on limited information with their own advantages and disadvantages.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Assuming she takes control of some large faction of the Dothraki, she's suddenly going to find herself in charge of immense political, military, and religious power, but will she be able to keep it under control?

One thing is for sure: when they arrive at Westeros, it will be one of the scariest hosts ever to land on the seven kingdoms. 

If I were a Kings Landing peasant and saw Drogon and Dothraki, it'll probably be like seeing Nazgul riding a fellbeast and leading some dark host from Mordor.

Dothraki, Unsullied, Sellswords, Dragons, Red Priests, Euron, Ironborn, bickering nobles, GC, Unsupervised Cersei, Zombie Army/NK,  and Winter. TWOW is going to be real rough on the Seven Kingdoms.

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5 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

I don't see any trick here. When I look at Daenerys, I see a promising ruler with revolutionary ideas, who has a lot of problems to solve to implement those ideas. And there are moments in which she acts cruelly and brutally. So Daenerys is a gray character (and thats good, because white or black characters are often boring) and she definitely shows signs that she could committ mass-murder under the right circumstances. So are her good deeds pointless or nonsensical? No, in the contrary, they add to her character development and and make her an interesting character.

I totally do. Five books written in a very elegant and non-tropey way turning clumsy and cliché in the two following books doesn't speak "quality" to me.

If its fine by you consider yourself fortunate.

5 hours ago, Haskelltier said:

Isn't it a tragedy if a promising person with well meant ideas ends up the opposite way?

Tragic and tragedy isn't the same:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy

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2 hours ago, Br16 said:

One thing is for sure: when they arrive at Westeros, it will be one of the scariest hosts ever to land on the seven kingdoms. 

If I were a Kings Landing peasant and saw Drogon and Dothraki, it'll probably be like seeing Nazgul riding a fellbeast and leading some dark host from Mordor.

Dothraki, Unsullied, Sellswords, Dragons, Red Priests, Euron, Ironborn, bickering nobles, GC, Unsupervised Cersei, Zombie Army/NK,  and Winter. TWOW is going to be real rough on the Seven Kingdoms.

A lot of people will think of Daenerys' following as the Army of the Underworld.

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On 7/8/2019 at 6:25 PM, Sigella said:

Sure but most stories are about men right from the start so that doesn't say a lot. I've liked the originality of this series only to find out in the end it's all cliché, it's a messed up trick to play on your reader/viewer. Sure, this maybe could be done elegantly but it rather defeats the purpose of being read/viewed to present it as nonsensical.

The story isn't finished (and probably never will) so your complaint has no merit. Just because this is vaguely Dany's ending means little for the books. This is how the show did it but there is no reason for one to like how the show did it. And just because she might suffer a similar fate in the books (aka tragedy not villainy like the show), what does it matter if you like it or not? Just because you personally didn't like what happens to your obvious fave character means very little in the grand scheme of things. Martin has set it up in the books for this (tragedy) to be a potential way Dany's story could go. Is it his fault you had blinders or didn't pay attention or want your fave character to be handed only the best? Nope, you oy have yourself to blame for that. And then you hate on creators for not giving you what you wanted, calling the story a cliché, even when the story isn't even finished.

On 7/8/2019 at 6:25 PM, Sigella said:

Tragedys doesn't end in every protagonist getting their hearts desires. Tragedys end the opposite. Remember Dany turning antagonist means she deserved getting knifed. She wasn't grey anymore, she committed the worst act ever.

Again, the real story is the books not the show. D&D are a bunch of fratbros too dumb to write. And what is so wrong with Dany's story ending in a tragedy? As long as it's not black&white like the show, which simply made her an antagonist, no problem. Dany is plenty gray already in the books and unlike the show, the books don't ask you to applaud her blood/fire lust and slaughter and questionable decisions. But even the show, badly written as it was, it was the fans own fault for not seeing the darker side of Dany. Sure it was clumsily written and they always tried to gloss over it, but pretending it wasn't there is like saying you didn't actually watch the show or simply had blinders on while you did.

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On 7/7/2019 at 12:07 PM, Sigella said:

Yes. I've never been so cool with the fact that GRRM might not finish the series as after this car crash. Now I pretty much hopes he won't and Dany won't be turned into another Mad Queen cliché, I get to keep some warmth in my heart for the ungrateful bitchy Starks and No-Arc-Jaime.

No-Arc Jaime...did he used to run with No-Heart-Anthony? :lol:

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On 9 July 2019 at 11:24 AM, Haskelltier said:

Yes, these are definitely interesting developments and I look forward how these will end in the books. There are many possibilities for interesting stories and thats one thing I like about the book. There seldom is one way to go and the protagonists have to choose between different paths based on limited information with their own advantages and disadvantages.

What the show probably got right is that the nobility of Westeros will be hugely prejudiced against Daenerys.  She's a woman, she's the Mad King's daughter, she was married to a horse Lord.  Cersei's description of her as a "foreign whore who doesn't know her place" is likely to be the general view.  Everything she does will be viewed in the worst possible light, and she'll be blamed for things that aren't her fault.

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13 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What the show probably got right is that the nobility of Westeros will be hugely prejudiced against Daenerys.  She's a woman, she's the Mad King's daughter, she was married to a horse Lord.  Cersei's description of her as a "foreign whore who doesn't know her place" is likely to be the general view.  Everything she does will be viewed in the worst possible light, and she'll be blamed for things that aren't her fault.

She also has tyrion who  people think killed joffrey and his dad and is generally disliked... And the fact that he just gave a bunch of the westerlands to sells words. 

She probably will be supported by the red priests and opose the faith because they support aegon and the red priests don t play well with other religions. 

She will be blamed for killing Quentin and the destruction of meereen... 

All in all Danny pr is awful and is one of the reasons that an alliance through marriage with Jon actually makes sense for her. She will need to marry someone that gains her the support of some westeros. And a northern with ties to several kingdoms that doesn t follow the new gods is some of the best alternatives there is... 

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On 7/9/2019 at 8:15 AM, Br16 said:

One thing is for sure: when they arrive at Westeros, it will be one of the scariest hosts ever to land on the seven kingdoms. 

If I were a Kings Landing peasant and saw Drogon and Dothraki, it'll probably be like seeing Nazgul riding a fellbeast and leading some dark host from Mordor.

Dothraki, Unsullied, Sellswords, Dragons, Red Priests, Euron, Ironborn, bickering nobles, GC, Unsupervised Cersei, Zombie Army/NK,  and Winter. TWOW is going to be real rough on the Seven Kingdoms.

Yep. The final book is going to be more horror than high fantasy.

46 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What the show probably got right is that the nobility of Westeros will be hugely prejudiced against Daenerys.  She's a woman, she's the Mad King's daughter, she was married to a horse Lord.  Cersei's description of her as a "foreign whore who doesn't know her place" is likely to be the general view.  Everything she does will be viewed in the worst possible light, and she'll be blamed for things that aren't her fault.

 

24 minutes ago, divica said:

She also has tyrion who  people think killed joffrey and his dad and is generally disliked... And the fact that he just gave a bunch of the westerlands to sells words. 

She probably will be supported by the red priests and opose the faith because they support aegon and the red priests don t play well with other religions. 

She will be blamed for killing Quentin and the destruction of meereen... 

All in all Danny pr is awful and is one of the reasons that an alliance through marriage with Jon actually makes sense for her. She will need to marry someone that gains her the support of some westeros. And a northern with ties to several kingdoms that doesn t follow the new gods is some of the best alternatives there is... 

I agree with both of your posts.

As a matter of fact, I think most people in Westeros will think of her as madder than Aerys II and crueler than Maegor when the reality couldn't be further from the truth. I -- for one -- don't think Daenerys is going to go mad at all. People will think so but it won't be true.

I think Tyrion is going to manipulate Jon into killing Daenerys because Tyrion won't be able to control her and is slowly becoming Tywin 2.0 (aka a manipulative, ruthless villain) before our very eyes. I think Samwell is going to hop on the anti-magic, anti-religion bandwagon and see Daenerys as a major threat to the entire world. I think Sansa and Arya are going to fear for Jon's life and/or be jealous of his relationship with Daenerys which will lead them to distrust Daenerys' ability to care for and protect him.

Daenerys will be completely misunderstood by Jon by the end.

Jon will realize that he got played after the fact. He retires to the Lands of Always Winter or kills himself out of grief and shame. Everyone catches onto Tyrion and Sansa does everything yet another solid by getting rid of him, this time with Arya and Bran helping.

Since Jon is the last surviving relative of Dany and Jon's next of male kin is Bran, then it makes sense why Bran would be king. He'd be set to inherit the Seven Kingdoms anyways.

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