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Master thread on what the Show means for the book plot

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On 1/25/2021 at 10:28 AM, BlackLightning said:

Maybe.

There is also the infamous dream Dany has. She is having sex with a dead/frostbitten man in which his erect penis feels like a cold steel dagger. In my opinion, this is a dragon dream and that the man in her dream is Jon Snow.

Yeah, that was pretty disturbing.

On 1/25/2021 at 10:28 AM, BlackLightning said:

There's no way anyone will let Tyrion cannot become Hand of the King. Although he (falsely) committed to killing the king he fought for and protected, Tyrion's greatest sin/error is killing his own father while he was on the toilet in his own home.

Kinslaying and guest right seem to be major taboos and people who commit such sins are cursed in life and after death. Having everyone ignore this (after over a decade of Jaime being dragged through filth for killing King Aerys II and Brienne being forced into running for her life because she is a suspect in King Renly's death) is a massive plot-hole.

I dont know how much blowback Tyrion will get in the end, if Dany kills 500,000 people. It seems like small potatoes next to that.

And its odd, there were so many Targaryens killing each other but they were still in power. People called Bloodraven a kinslayer but he was still the Hand for a while after that without much objection. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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23 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont know how much blowback Tyrion will get in the end, if Dany kills 500,000 people. It seems like small potatoes next to that.

And its odd, there were so many Targaryens killing each other but they were still in power. People called Bloodraven a kinslayer but he was still the Hand for a while after that without much objection. 

I don't know. Well, to be honest, Dany killing 500,000 (if it happens) people isn't that big of a deal when you compare her to her ancestors. Especially Aegon, Maegor, Daemon and Daeron

As far as I'm concerned, making Tyrion Hand of the King again is like making Walder Frey or Roose Bolton Hand of the King.

Why would you want someone who really went out of their way to murder their own parent to become the second most powerful person in the entire country??

Bloodraven, on the contrary, had many objections. And Bloodraven wasn't a kinslayer. He didn't personally loose the arrows that killed the Blackfyres. People (aka Blackfyre supporters) called him that because they think that he used sorcery to make sure that the arrows that were shot hit their target. Besides, the Blackfyres were rebels and traitors. What does the Lord of Winterfell do when their Stark kin deserts the Night's Watch? And in the end, Bloodraven was banished to the Wall anyways...so he never really escaped punishment.

With Tyrion, however...things are different. There is no debate about whether he killed his father or not nor is it a case of a law enforcer killing a lawbreaker who happens to be kin. Tyrion had legally been tried and sentenced; he was a convicted criminal who killed the law enforcer and escaped.

Very different scenarios.

Back to Dany, what REALLY matters is how or why? Are these people innocent civilians or are they combatants or are they civilian combatants (aka insurgents)? Were they given at least once chance to surrender? Did she do it on accident? Were the deaths collateral damage in her fight against someone like Euron or Cersei or was it collateral damage in her fight against someone like fAegon or Jon Snow? Did she do it out of spite? Does she become psychotic and then kills half a million people? Did it happen because she was trying to do blood magic?

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't know. Well, to be honest, Dany killing 500,000 (if it happens) people isn't that big of a deal when you compare her to her ancestors. Especially Aegon, Maegor, Daemon and Daeron

I dont know any of those guys who killed 500,000 people, in a city, in one day. That's like a Rwandan genocide in 24 hours. Do you have stats on the other casualties from each of those guys? 

Quote

As far as I'm concerned, making Tyrion Hand of the King again is like making Walder Frey or Roose Bolton Hand of the King.

Why would you want someone who really went out of their way to murder their own parent to become the second most powerful person in the entire country??

Bloodraven, on the contrary, had many objections. And Bloodraven wasn't a kinslayer. He didn't personally loose the arrows that killed the Blackfyres. People (aka Blackfyre supporters) called him that because they think that he used sorcery to make sure that the arrows that were shot hit their target. Besides, the Blackfyres were rebels and traitors. What does the Lord of Winterfell do when their Stark kin deserts the Night's Watch? And in the end, Bloodraven was banished to the Wall anyways...so he never really escaped punishment.

With Tyrion, however...things are different. There is no debate about whether he killed his father or not nor is it a case of a law enforcer killing a lawbreaker who happens to be kin. Tyrion had legally been tried and sentenced; he was a convicted criminal who killed the law enforcer and escaped.

Very different scenarios.

I thought you meant being a kinslayer as a public perception to prevent him from being promoted, so that's why I brought up Bloodraven. But reading this post, I think you mean narrative justice? Really I think the only injustice in that regard is what he did to Shae. Not what he did to his father.

Quote

Back to Dany, what REALLY matters is how or why? Are these people innocent civilians or are they combatants or are they civilian combatants (aka insurgents)? Were they given at least once chance to surrender? Did she do it on accident? Were the deaths collateral damage in her fight against someone like Euron or Cersei or was it collateral damage in her fight against someone like fAegon or Jon Snow? Did she do it out of spite? Does she become psychotic and then kills half a million people? Did it happen because she was trying to do blood magic?

In the show her killing them even though they surrendered sounds like the "gut punch" GRRM goes for. I just assume the story is here to deliver a message, loud and clear, about the type of power only Dany has.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 2/4/2021 at 8:28 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

In the show her killing them even though they surrendered sounds like the "gut punch" GRRM goes for. I just assume the story is here to deliver a message, loud and clear, about the type of power only Dany has.

I don't believe it.

First of all, not all of GRRM's gut punches revolve around these explosive, emotionally wrought scenarios and setpieces. The simple reveal that Reek was Ramsay Snow all along was a gut punch. The death of Khal Drogo and stillbirth of Rhaego were gut punches. Lysa revealing that she lied about everything and didn't feel sorry about it was a gut punch.

Second of all, the whole ending of the TV show is way too similar to the ending of the Dance of Dragons to be taken too literally.

Rhaenyra (whom a lot of people don't like) takes the Iron Throne from her lousy half-brother and her grasping evil stepmother (whom nobody likes) only to be so consumed by her hate and anger that she turns out to be worst than the both of them. The amount of people who dislike Rhaenyra increase to the point that a small rebellion/coup occurs. Rhaenyra loses power. narrowly escaping the city only to be surprised and killed by her half-brother. Said half-brother Aegon seizes control once again but he forgets that nobody liked him to begin with so he ends up being mysteriously murdered in his throne room. The lords of the realm half-ass their way through investigations and a trial before making Rhaenyra's son, the other Aegon, the king. Only for them to realize that little Aegon is a sourpuss, traumatized by all that he encountered. Hope arrives however when his sisters introduce him to a girl who would be his future queen. Aegon smiles. The end.

Sound familiar?

Besides, the moral of the TV show was ultimately that women who seek power cannot be trusted with power unless they have been victims of horrific sexual abuse. If not, they will become psychotic, hypersexual mass murderers.

Is that that message about the type of power Dany has that you were referring to?

Third of all, if the message you are getting at is about nuclear power, then that message is erased and invalidated if she destroys an entire city that already surrenders. There are so many things wrong with that that a nuclear weapon metaphor is inapplicable.

Besides, GRRM has already confirmed that there will be other dragonriders besides Daenerys. 

On 2/4/2021 at 8:28 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

In the show her killing them even though they surrendered sounds like the "gut punch" GRRM goes for. I just assume the story is here to deliver a message, loud and clear, about the type of power only Dany has.

Nope but I do know that Aegon and Visenya are responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people in Dorne during the period known as the Dragon's Wroth...where they destroyed dozens of towns and castles and holdfasts.

I do know that Maegor and Visenya burned numerous towns, castles and villages within an evening during Maegor's reign. More than once.

I do know that Rhaenyra ordered mass executions on a daily basis. I do know that Daeron the Young Dragon is responsible for the deaths of another set of hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people in Dorne.

My point is that Daenerys Targaryen firebombing a city of 500k-2m people is not an unbelievably unconscionable thing in and of itself. (It's likely not going to be possible given the circumstances in the books, Drogon doesn't have the strength of a Balerion or a Vhagar and King's Landing is likely to be covered in snow and ice which adds an additional barrier to the destruction of the city)

The problem here is destroying a city that has already surrendered to her and now completely belongs to her. It is so illogical and unnecessary that it defies everything.

Aerys II Targaryen, a known madman who was likely suffering from an legit mentally illness, only tried to destroy King's Landing when it was clear that all was lost and he had been cornered. Militarily speaking, he was going kamikaze as it was his last stand and it was a political middle finger to the next regime. Which is saying a lot because not even Hitler or his sicko generals went as far as that. Not even Stalin destroyed his own city centers.

But yet Daenerys tries to destroy King's Landing because she is mad that they surrendered to her on time as was previously discussed. But yet she is completely sane.

Not even Maegor in all his cruelty or Rhaenyra in all her paranoia tried to destroy large swathes of King's Landing. And no one really liked them nor were the two of them particularly fond of the people in the city.

Not even TV!Cersei (aka Carol) blew up the entire city: she only took out an entire city district. The only person who would willfully do what TV!Daenerys did (aka Danielle) is Ramsay and not even Ramsay would completely lose it like that.

Third of all, you're also completely avoiding the topic of why Daenerys didn't just make a beeline to the Red Keep and set it on fire after the city surrendered. If what happened was that she lost her temper and saw red, that's what anyone who has completely lost their shit and saw red would have done. Sure there would've been some collateral damage. Except she destroyed everything except for the Red Keep.

It was nuts.

Like come on. Unless GRRM is turning Daenerys into the ASOIAF version of Satan, what happened in the show is not going to happen.

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On 2/11/2021 at 12:14 PM, bluntt said:

let me spoil it for you guys, nothing from what happened in the show will be in the books... because there will be no books

How do you know? And where are your spoiler tags?

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On 2/17/2021 at 7:38 PM, BlackLightning said:

How do you know? And where are your spoiler tags?

Im one of those pessimistic guys that think GRRM is 72yo and very obese, also his writing as of recent is really slow, so at best i see just TWOW published. 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 2/9/2021 at 5:52 PM, BlackLightning said:

The problem here is destroying a city that has already surrendered to her and now completely belongs to her. It is so illogical and unnecessary that it defies everything.

Maybe it's useful to imagine the ways it could happen more logically then? I can see it going lots of ways.

- Maybe Dany thinks the surrender is an act of perfidy and a plan to lure her into a trap. This happened with Daeron in Dorne. And maybe perfidy is somewhere in the Aegon plot? Like He, Varys, or JonCon could trick Dany with surrender, which angers her and makes her paranoid about it happening again.

- Maybe Dany decides on a whim to use No Quarter. Dany already has the most power in the world and can decide to kill 5000,000 people if she wants, and no one can stop her. Also a similar no quarter situation happened at Tumbleton. Soldiers surrendered and the city was destroyed anyway. Of course there is historical precedent for this too.

- Maybe Dany decides that she doesn't want the daily tedium of ruling, and prefers to "show people whose boss." Maybe she decides Westeros needs to be punished for opposing her. I think there are numerous examples in the books that she goes out of her way to exact punishment on a population level, and then moves on.

- Maybe she gets progressively more self-righteous and this is her version of "liberation" in her twisted mind. People corrupted by power or deluded by their own bullshit don't have to do things that are logical and make sense.

- Maybe Dany doesn't see Westeros as her home at that point. Maybe she realizes it was all a fantasy and she lashes out. Maybe she doesn't want to rule over people who don't worship her. Maybe she doesn't see it as "her city" anymore.

- Maybe she is more like the Dothraki who don't follow rules of war. They force a city into submission and THEN enslave it and rape women. Conquerors in history have done similar things - maybe Dany is on that trajectory.

-Prophecy-wise, the "Stallion Who Fucks the World!!!!" doesn't really fit someone who "just attacks a tower" and "tries to minimize damage."

"We all know the saying power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And there's a great deal of truth in that. But also I find that the desire for power can corrupt us, the lust for power makes people do things maybe they shouldn't do." (x)

"What drives Dany? With Dany I'm particularly looking at the... what effect great power has upon a person. She's the mother of dragons, and she controls what is in effect the only three nuclear weapons in the entire world that I've created. What does it do to you when you control the only three nuclear weapons in the world and you can destroy entire cities or cultures if you choose to? Should you choose to, should you not choose to?" (x)

- I read GRRM's statements about power corrupting here, and how he's exploring the effect great power has on Dany, and wonder okay then, WHY is there is a "corrupt, rotting heart" in Dany's fortune telling visions? Why isn't that discussed more? What are the implications of that?

- Dany has so many unique qualities that comparisons don't fit. Cersei and Ramsay never had dragons. Aegon the Conqueror had a desire to build and restore cities and stick it out for the long haul. Aegon V had Dany's drive to correcting the "wrongs" in the world, but he didn't have the corrupting influence of absolute power through nukes. The High Sparrow, the Brotherhood without Banners both had a righteousness that seemed promising at first, then went horribly wrong and became quite scary (beware the righteous avengers!). It can happen to Dany.

"The Dragons can win wars for you, that's established in the histories. But they can't necessarily produce peace or prosperity or help you rule the nation. You know Daenerys Targaryen is finding it out in Meereen when she defeats the cities of Slavers Bay with her three dragons. But then in trying to rule as Queen, she can destroy Meereen any time she wants by just unleashing the dragons, she could kill a lot of people, wipe out that most of the population of the city, reduce the entire city to a fiery inferno, but that doesn't help her come up with good laws or to establish peace between the original inhabitants and the the freedmen and people that she's brought in. So ruling is more than just the power to destroy, and that's a lesson that she's definitely learning." (x)

"Dragons are the nuclear deterrent, and only [Daenerys Targaryen] has them, which in some ways makes her the most powerful person in the world. But is that sufficient? These are the kind of issues I’m trying to explore. The United States right now has the ability to destroy the world with our nuclear arsenal, but that doesn’t mean we can achieve specific geopolitical goals. Power is more subtle than that. You can have the power to destroy, but it doesn’t give you the power to reform, or improve, or build.”

- Maybe it's thematic. Reading these interviews with GRRM, I think he wants to show dragons as destroyers (of cities, of dynasties, of dreams, of whatever). For the theme to work, the message has to be that you can't get very far with them. A dynasty will only last 300 years compared to the Starks' 10k. Dany's failures also show that the methods used by Aegon to start his dynasty, was bound to fail long-term. Also, if Dany just attacks the Red Keep and goes on to be a successful ruler, it sends a message to crazy political leaders that nukes are helpful and can be useful to their political goals. I don't think GRRM wants his work to bolster the viewpoints of dictators who want to intimidate the populace with WMD. 

- Maybe some people like villain Dany. Like me!! It's a brilliant experiment in how dictators gain power and how it happens through an illusion. People follow dictators all over the world, and have been convinced their political leaders are heroes. I think it's genius to make her sympathetic at the start. I really was rooting for her but she did things that made me increasingly uncomfortable that I tried to justify. And then I just hit that wall where I realized, no, I'm not looking at a hero with flaws, I'm watching a villain in the making. And I love it! Dany as a hero is boring, told a million times...But Dany as a villain who still thinks she's one of the good guys? It's meaty and interesting and good and I can't wait to see it in the books because it will be so much better.

On 2/9/2021 at 5:52 PM, BlackLightning said:

Aerys II Targaryen, a known madman who was likely suffering from an legit mentally illness, only tried to destroy King's Landing when it was clear that all was lost and he had been cornered. Militarily speaking, he was going kamikaze as it was his last stand and it was a political middle finger to the next regime. Which is saying a lot because not even Hitler or his sicko generals went as far as that. Not even Stalin destroyed his own city centers.

I mean... it happened. It just looked slightly different. Dictators do horrible shit to their own people. Either through outright mass murder, prisons, or willful neglect. Dictator A gasses their own citizens in a concentration camp far away from the city center. Dictator B decides not to go to all that trouble and just kills everyone quickly inside the city. Does it matter??? Don't ask genocide to make sense. It's supposed to be senseless. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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