[TV Show Spoilers] A theory about the ending.

[Greywater-Watch]

16 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

Which brings on my third issue. Despite being somewhat friends with Jon, oddly enough he doesn't have a good relation with wolves in general. He felt uneasy being around Ghost, got attacked by three direwolves and lastly he dreamed of getting chased by wolves while naked. These are quite ominous foreshadowing. Something tells me that in ADOS he will be an enemy of the Starks. And since Starks are the heroes of the story and will end up on the top in the end I don't think his ending will be a good one. 

Could you provide textual evidence for your statements (I marked them in bold above)?

[Elegant Woes]

@Greywater-Watch 

 

Quote

 

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

When the direwolf howled again, Tyrion shut the heavy leather-bound cover on the book he was reading, a hundred-year-old discourse on the changing of the seasons by a long-dead maester.

 

"The wolves do not like your smell, Lannister," Theon Greyjoy commented.

"Perhaps it's time I took my leave," Tyrion said. He took a step backward … and Shaggydog came out of the shadows behind him, snarling. Lannister recoiled, and Summer lunged at him from the other side. He reeled away, unsteady on his feet, and Grey Wind snapped at his arm, teeth ripping at his sleeve and tearing loose a scrap of cloth.

 "The wolfswood," Benjen Stark called it, and indeed their nights came alive with the howls of distant packs, and some not so distant. Jon Snow's albino direwolf pricked up his ears at the nightly howling, but never raised his own voice in reply. There was something very unsettling about that animal, Tyrion thought.

 

 

None of the direwolves liked Tyrion, in fact they seem to dislike him. They wouldn't feel that way if there wasn't a reason for it. This is enough evidence to support that Tyrion is not friend of the Starks. 

[Lord Invictus]

Its important though to remember the early chapters of AGOT still followed the original outline or at least there are portions or remnants of it-Jaimie is foreshadowed as being King as well, Jon and Arya are close in a way that corresponds to the original outline, Joffrey can fight to some extent and its foreshadowed he will face Robb etc... Tyrion also burned down Winterfell in the original 1993 outline. 

So I take a lot of this material, as artifacts from Martin's earlier plans and conceptions not necessarily being insightful into the future. 

In general though I sort of recoil at the desire for "killing all the Lannisters" in some sections of the ASOIAF fandom, I find it morally condemnable at best and abominable at worst-when people are saying all the Lannisters should be killed. Including infants, small children, teenagers and third cousins. 

[Elegant Woes]

Personally I don't like the idea of innocent people, especially children dying because of the actions of their family members. I hate it that poor and sweet children like Tommen and Myrcella need to be killed just because they are product of incest and how awful their mother is. And yet George going through with this. So if they have to be punished despite doing absolutely nothing, then Tyrion, who did a lot of wrong, should be punished too. Though with that said, unlike Cersei, Jaime, Myrcella and Tommen, Tyrion will probably not die. He will be send to the wall - with his tongue cut out. 

[BlackLightning]

On 11/10/2019 at 12:08 PM, Elegant Woes said:

I don't mean all the Lannisters, I should have explained better. I only mean Tywin's direct line. And in terms of foreshadowing a lot of things don't look good for Tyrion. For one there's hints he might lose a tongue - fitting if you tell me, because if there's a pattern I noticed with the Lannister siblings is that each of them lose what they took pride in. Jaime took pride in being a knight and he lost his hand. Cersei took pride in her beauty and she gained weight and her hair was cut off. Tyrion takes pride in his wits and therefore it's very likely he will lose his tongue.

Secondly Tyrion has been accused of a lot of things in ASOIAF and most of them weren't true. It even got as far as him getting two trails on a crime he didn't commit. Since GRRM likes to follow the rule of three then Tyrion is bound to get a trail for the third time - and this time he will not be so lucky and most likely be actually guilty. 

Which brings on my third issue. Despite being somewhat friends with Jon, oddly enough he doesn't have a good relation with wolves in general. He felt uneasy being around Ghost, got attacked by three direwolves and lastly he dreamed of getting chased by wolves while naked. These are quite ominous foreshadowing. Something tells me that in ADOS he will be an enemy of the Starks. And since Starks are the heroes of the story and will end up on the top in the end I don't think his ending will be a good one. 

Tyrion is guilty of kinslaying -- the worst of the worse -- and (falsely) confessed to kingslaying. A king who happened to be a close relative of his. And his father was the essentially the Prime Minister of Westeros. Which means that Tyrion is not only guilty of kinslaying, but he's also guilty of high treason.

In the books, Tyrion has a deep loathing of Catelyn Stark even after her death. And he is nowhere near as nice as he was in the show so Robb, Arya and Bran have a different take on him. And somewhat friends with Jon is correct; Jon doesn't really like him that much. Tyrion was quite mean to Jon. And you also forgot to mention that Tyrion also got jumped by Ghost on the way to the Wall in Game of Thrones.

I think that there will be a Great Council meeting after Daenerys is murdered and Jon is killed/imprisoned in the books. Tyrion, the mastermind behind the murder of Daenerys at the hands of Jon and thus Jon's imprisonment, will make his big play. But the Starks, particularly Sansa and Bran, will be ready for his bullshit and turn the tables on him. So, in a way, the Great Council meeting becomes a trial and he gets Littlefinger's death.

Tyrion also is bound to make a move on Sansa and Winterfell because - as of Dance with Dragons - Tyrion still considers her to be his wife. And Tyrion (in a stark contrast to Jon) was seduced by his desire to be the Lord of Winterfell. And Tyrion is still angry she left (lolwut). So, Tyrion's return to Westeros is not going to make Sansa feel happy or secure. Her instinctive reaction will be abject fear of becoming another Lannister hostage

[Elegant Woes]

@Jabar of House Titan You have added a great addition. I forgot about the part Ghost tackled Tyrion. Serves him right. Like you said, he was really mean to Jon, a bully even. On top of it he gave Jon terrible advice. If it wasn't for the interference of Donal Noye Jon would have been killed by his brothers back in book 1.

I especially love your take on how the Great Council meeting might take place in ADOS. I daresay this scene here might be a foreshadow of what could happen:

Quote

"Robb will set aside his crown if you and your brother will do the same," she said, hoping it was true. She would make it true if she must; Robb would listen to her, even if his lords would not. "Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them." - ACOK, Catelyn IV

Despite the ending of the show I refuse to believe that the endgame of Jon and Tyrion will be the same in the books. 

Based on the dark personality and the crimes he committed I fully believe Tyrion will be the one who gets send to the Wall not Jon. 

The Starks went through hell and back. I don't think George is that sadistic to have them being punished. The ending is supposed to be bitterSWEET. There's no doubt in my mind that the sweetness of the ending will be about the Starks having a happy ending: Bran as King, Arya as part of council, and Jon & Sansa in the North as Lord and Lady in Winterfell (don't think we will get a northern Independence).

[BlackLightning]

33 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Jabar of House Titan You have added a great addition. I forgot about the part Ghost tackled Tyrion. Serves him right. Like you said, he was really mean to Jon, a bully even. On top of it he gave Jon terrible advice. If it wasn't for the interference of Donal Noye Jon would have been killed by his brothers back in book 1.

I especially love your take on how the Great Council meeting might take place in ADOS. I daresay this scene here might be a foreshadow of what could happen:

Despite the ending of the show I refuse to believe that the endgame of Jon and Tyrion will be the same in the books. 

Based on the dark personality and the crimes he committed I fully believe Tyrion will be the one who gets send to the Wall not Jon. 

The Starks went through hell and back. I don't think George is that sadistic to have them being punished. The ending is supposed to be bitterSWEET. There's no doubt in my mind that the sweetness of the ending will be about the Starks having a happy ending: Bran as King, Arya as part of council, and Jon & Sansa in the North as Lord and Lady in Winterfell (don't think we will get a northern Independence).

I think the Wall is going to be completely destroyed so there's not going to be a real Wall to send anyone to...

I think Tyrion is going to die too. 

But I don't think Jon is going to get off so lightly as to be allowed to be the Lord of Winterfell. That's crazy. More likely than not, Daenerys will not only be Queen at that point (making Jon a kingslayer) but Daenerys will also be his wife. For a husband to kill his wife...in her own home. It's awful. It's almost beyond a violation of guest right. And there's also the not-so-small matter of Jon and Daenerys being blood relatives: killing Daenerys would make Jon a kinslayer...

Yeah, if Jon murders Daenerys like I think he will, Jon will be screwed. Tragically, it will be over some sort of misunderstanding that is made massive by Tyrion's lies and schemes. But yeah.

The bittersweet ending will be for Bran, Sansa, Arya, Sam, Brienne, Melisandre and maybe even Daenerys and Jaime. Definitely not for Tyrion.

I can't see how Jon's story doesn't end in tragically without the Starks irrevocably destroying their entire reputation. The realm is sympathetic to their plight because of the horrors of the Red Wedding and the fact that the daughters were married by swordpoint to hostages. If Aerys can't torture and kill his own subjects without suffering from massive social repercussions and if Rhaegar can't elope with a daughter of a great lord without there being a huge issue...then why should Jon be able to lure his wife into a false sense of security and then kill her.

And there's no way Daenerys is going to completely break character and destroy her own city for no reason whatsoever.

Justice demands that Jon be punished. And I am willing to bet money on there not being any Wall to send anyone to.

Where Jon is concerned, it is either death, a lifetime of imprisonment/house arrest or exile. And exiling a man with as much clout as Jon is dangerous.

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think the Wall is going to be completely destroyed so there's not going to be a real Wall to send anyone to...

I think Tyrion is going to die too. 

But I don't think Jon is going to get off so lightly as to be allowed to be the Lord of Winterfell. That's crazy. More likely than not, Daenerys will not only be Queen at that point (making Jon a kingslayer) but Daenerys will also be his wife. For a husband to kill his wife...in her own home. It's awful. It's almost beyond a violation of guest right. And there's also the not-so-small matter of Jon and Daenerys being blood relatives: killing Daenerys would make Jon a kinslayer...

Yeah, if Jon murders Daenerys like I think he will, Jon will be screwed. Tragically, it will be over some sort of misunderstanding that is made massive by Tyrion's lies and schemes. But yeah.

The bittersweet ending will be for Bran, Sansa, Arya, Sam, Brienne, Melisandre and maybe even Daenerys and Jaime. Definitely not for Tyrion.

I can't see how Jon's story doesn't end in tragically without the Starks irrevocably destroying their entire reputation. The realm is sympathetic to their plight because of the horrors of the Red Wedding and the fact that the daughters were married by swordpoint to hostages. If Aerys can't torture and kill his own subjects without suffering from massive social repercussions and if Rhaegar can't elope with a daughter of a great lord without there being a huge issue...then why should Jon be able to lure his wife into a false sense of security and then kill her.

And there's no way Daenerys is going to completely break character and destroy her own city for no reason whatsoever.

Justice demands that Jon be punished. And I am willing to bet money on there not being any Wall to send anyone to.

Where Jon is concerned, it is either death, a lifetime of imprisonment/house arrest or exile. And exiling a man with as much clout as Jon is dangerous.

Tyrion was first whitewashed, compared to his book counterpart, in Seasons 1 to 4, and then completely transformed in Seasons 5 to 8.  Tyrion was made into a pacifistic saint, and therefore, Daenerys had to be vilified in turn.  I think the dynamic between the two will be very different in the books with Tyrion urging her on to acts of cruelty, while she is more restrained. In fact, that was a complete contrast between book and show. In the books, Dany's advisors are always urging her to be more ruthless and brutal, whereas in the show they were always trying to talk her down.

Like you, I think Tyrion's motives for compassing Daenerys' death in the books will be base ones. 

[Lord Invictus]

On 11/13/2019 at 3:06 PM, Elegant Woes said:

Personally I don't like the idea of innocent people, especially children dying because of the actions of their family members. I hate it that poor and sweet children like Tommen and Myrcella need to be killed just because they are product of incest and how awful their mother is. And yet George going through with this. So if they have to be punished despite doing absolutely nothing, then Tyrion, who did a lot of wrong, should be punished too. Though with that said, unlike Cersei, Jaime, Myrcella and Tommen, Tyrion will probably not die. He will be send to the wall - with his tongue cut out. 

They definitely don’t “need” to die. The plot mandates they do. You seem to be implying there is some moral imperative that they die, and that to me is morally beyond the pale. They don’t “have” to be punished. 

 

As for Tyrion- a few points

-he has every reason to despise Catelyn Stark, the woman kidnapped him for a crime he didn’t commit, and he saved the woman’s life, and didn’t get an ounce of gratitude in return. Not to mention, he tried to be reasonable and explain how it couldn’t have been him, but Catelyn once she makes a decision ignores all evidence to the contrary of her certain righteousness. He nearly was killed for what happened. 

-he did give Bran a saddle, something I expect will matter when he and Bran meet again. Probably not “hey thanks you gave this specialized saddle” but more that Tyrion’s kindness will factor into Bran’s decision as to his fate. 

-Killing Tyrion would have been so very easy, think of all the emoting they could have gotten out of Peter Dinklage to shill for Emmys! Also Tyrion is one of the top four characters in the story, and I am fairly convinced the show got the primary endings right. That is the (general) state of Westeros and the endings of the top four or five characters. Of which Tyrion definitely is one. 

Daenerys is going fire and blood just find on her own. She already has Quaithe telling her to “remember who you are”, “dragons plant no trees” and all that fun jazz. When her downfall does come, it will be her own fault, her own choices. Not the devil imp making her do bad things. That’s a disservice to Daenerys’ story as much it as it is to Tyrion’s. 

-For Tyrion’s fate, I’m about 60% confident the show got it right, 30% he may go to the wall, 10% he may die. 

-as for his crimes, I don’t think anyone denies Tywin got his just desserts, out of universe anyway, if there ever was a justified kinslayer it’s Tyrion, also he confessed to killing Joffrey because Jaimie had just reopened his trauma wound and poured salt on it. Of course he would admit to something false just out of spite. Also Tywin was going to have Tyrion executed, for a crime he didn’t commit. 

In narrative/character terms, I say the show got it 60-70% accurate. The secondary characters, the fate of north, the fate of Essos, and the like will probably be different. Though how much is impossible to say. 

As for punishment and death-I have to quote Gandalf “do not be so quick to deal out death and judgement Frodo, there are some who live who deserve death, and some who die who deserve life”, is all I am going to say about characters arbitrarily “deserving” to die or live based on what we readers feel or prefer. 

 

Personally I don’t mind the show ending, the execution was generally terrible, and the writing was of course well the writing of this season.

But if GRRM told me, in a secret email afterwards, “this is more or less how Dream ends” I would be content with that, because I don’t really have a problem with the actual substance of the ending. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

I wonder about GRRM's love affair with Tyrion sometimes. In interviews he's said he wishes he could be Tyrion. With that kind of praise, the ending makes sense, but it's still disturbing. He wants to be someone who kills and rape whores and kills his father? 

22 hours ago, Lord Invictus said:

Personally I don’t mind the show ending, the execution was generally terrible, and the writing was of course well the writing of this season.

This is pretty much my thoughts too. I think the author has made some questionable choices about the core narrative, and D&D couldn't do much with that anyway. There are just some things that are going to be boring, ridiculous, and unsatisfying to read about, and some things, I don't even think the author can write well.

[Darryk]

On 11/22/2019 at 4:51 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I wonder about GRRM's love affair with Tyrion sometimes. In interviews he's said he wishes he could be Tyrion. With that kind of praise, the ending makes sense, but it's still disturbing. He wants to be someone who kills and rape whores and kills his father? 

This is pretty much my thoughts too. I think the author has made some questionable choices about the core narrative, and D&D couldn't do much with that anyway. There are just some things that are going to be boring, ridiculous, and unsatisfying to read about, and some things, I don't even think the author can write well.

He said he admires Tyrion's wit, but he also called Tyrion "a villain" in a 1999 interview.

He likes anti-heroes, he keeps talking about how great characters like Tony Soprano and Walter White are, because they're morally ambiguous.

I'm not entirely convinced Tyrion will end up hand of the king in the books. It's not as certain as Bran being king, as I don't think D+D would have done the latter unless GRRM told them, whereas the former is a decision I could see them making on their own (just as I don't think Sansa will end up queen of the north in the books).

[SeanF]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:49 AM, Lord Invictus said:

They definitely don’t “need” to die. The plot mandates they do. You seem to be implying there is some moral imperative that they die, and that to me is morally beyond the pale. They don’t “have” to be punished. 

 

As for Tyrion- a few points

-he has every reason to despise Catelyn Stark, the woman kidnapped him for a crime he didn’t commit, and he saved the woman’s life, and didn’t get an ounce of gratitude in return. Not to mention, he tried to be reasonable and explain how it couldn’t have been him, but Catelyn once she makes a decision ignores all evidence to the contrary of her certain righteousness. He nearly was killed for what happened. 

-he did give Bran a saddle, something I expect will matter when he and Bran meet again. Probably not “hey thanks you gave this specialized saddle” but more that Tyrion’s kindness will factor into Bran’s decision as to his fate. 

-Killing Tyrion would have been so very easy, think of all the emoting they could have gotten out of Peter Dinklage to shill for Emmys! Also Tyrion is one of the top four characters in the story, and I am fairly convinced the show got the primary endings right. That is the (general) state of Westeros and the endings of the top four or five characters. Of which Tyrion definitely is one. 

Daenerys is going fire and blood just find on her own. She already has Quaithe telling her to “remember who you are”, “dragons plant no trees” and all that fun jazz. When her downfall does come, it will be her own fault, her own choices. Not the devil imp making her do bad things. That’s a disservice to Daenerys’ story as much it as it is to Tyrion’s. 

-For Tyrion’s fate, I’m about 60% confident the show got it right, 30% he may go to the wall, 10% he may die. 

-as for his crimes, I don’t think anyone denies Tywin got his just desserts, out of universe anyway, if there ever was a justified kinslayer it’s Tyrion, also he confessed to killing Joffrey because Jaimie had just reopened his trauma wound and poured salt on it. Of course he would admit to something false just out of spite. Also Tywin was going to have Tyrion executed, for a crime he didn’t commit. 

In narrative/character terms, I say the show got it 60-70% accurate. The secondary characters, the fate of north, the fate of Essos, and the like will probably be different. Though how much is impossible to say. 

As for punishment and death-I have to quote Gandalf “do not be so quick to deal out death and judgement Frodo, there are some who live who deserve death, and some who die who deserve life”, is all I am going to say about characters arbitrarily “deserving” to die or live based on what we readers feel or prefer. 

 

Personally I don’t mind the show ending, the execution was generally terrible, and the writing was of course well the writing of this season.

But if GRRM told me, in a secret email afterwards, “this is more or less how Dream ends” I would be content with that, because I don’t really have a problem with the actual substance of the ending. 

Book Tyrion is appalling.  He kidnapped Shae, failed to pay her as promised, kept her in danger in a war zone, and ended up strangling her in a fit of fury.  Martin has described it as his worst act.

He hit Penny, turned a singer into a pot o' brown, armed Mountain Clansmen in order to wreak havoc against the Smallfolk of the Vale, fought for a usurper, wants nothing more than to rape his sister, threatened Tommen with rape, raped a sex slave before vomiting on her, and sees every attractive woman he meets as just a walking vagina.

And, he's a great character.  Appalling, but great.  He's certainly the most horrible of the top four characters, and the show turned him into a travesty of his book self.  He is the Walter White of the books.  He has the same anger, pride and bitterness.

[Rose of Red Lake]

12 minutes ago, Darryk said:

He said he admires Tyrion's wit, but he also called Tyrion "a villain" in a 1999 interview.

He likes anti-heroes, he keeps talking about how great characters like Tony Soprano and Walter White are, because they're morally ambiguous.

I'm not entirely convinced Tyrion will end up hand of the king in the books. It's not as certain as Bran being king, as I don't think D+D would have done the latter unless GRRM told them, whereas the former is a decision I could see them making on their own (just as I don't think Sansa will end up queen of the north in the books).

His statements about Tyrion are all over the place. “Tyrion might be who I want to be, but Sam is probably closer to who I actually am." I don't think he wants to be Walter White--who he called a worse monster than anyone else in Westeros.

GRRM saying "if anything" we can read about how Penny, Mel, Jorah, Arianne, ect (basically every secondary character) ends up in the books, makes me think the main characters' endings are the same.

[SeanF]

20 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

His statements about Tyrion are all over the place. “Tyrion might be who I want to be, but Sam is probably closer to who I actually am." I don't think he wants to be Walter White--who he called a worse monster than anyone else in Westeros.

GRRM saying "if anything" we can read about how Penny, Mel, Jorah, Arianne, ect (basically every secondary character) ends up in the books, makes me think the main characters' endings are the same.

I think there are too many differences between book and show for the main characters' endings to be the same (except, who lives and who dies) without some really absurd contrivances.

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think there are too many differences between book and show for the main characters' endings to be the same (except, who lives and who dies) without some really absurd contrivances.

When asked what he thought about the ending of the show, GRRM said he wasn't surprised by it because he came up with it 20 years ago. Dany is threat #2 to Westeros, Jon kills her and rejoins the Watch, Bran was on the King Arthur arc all along, Sansa is the first QitN, Arya sails off to a new adventure, and Tyrion rules because he's GRRM's special favorite. Everything makes sense to me, it was just shoddily written, rushed, and poorly explained. 

[SeanF]

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

When asked what he thought about the ending of the show, GRRM said he wasn't surprised by it because he came up with it 20 years ago. Dany is threat #2 to Westeros, Jon kills her and rejoins the Watch, Bran was on the King Arthur arc all along, Sansa is the first QitN, Arya sails off to a new adventure, and Tyrion rules because he's GRRM's special favorite. Everything makes sense to me, it was just shoddily written, rushed, and poorly explained. 

Can you quote him directly?  Because, everything I've heard him say seems very ambiguous.

And, if it really is his ending, it is truly crap.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, SeanF said:

Can you quote him directly?  Because, everything I've heard him say seems very ambiguous.

And, if it really is his ending, it is truly crap.

Interviewer: "When you heard some of what was planned, did you get emotional about it?"

GRRM: "Well, you know most of it is based on what I planned. So I got emotional about it 20 years ago, when I first thought of some of these things." (x)

I don't like the ending either (for once we agree).

[divica]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Can you quote him directly?  Because, everything I've heard him say seems very ambiguous.

And, if it really is his ending, it is truly crap.

Even his post on "not a blog" heavilly hinted about that being his ending. And I think we all agree that D&D would have killed bran long ago if they could… I don t see them making him king if it wasn t grrm's ending and they didn t know how to do it because it is just a really bad ending.

20 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

When asked what he thought about the ending of the show, GRRM said he wasn't surprised by it because he came up with it 20 years ago. Dany is threat #2 to Westeros, Jon kills her and rejoins the Watch, Bran was on the King Arthur arc all along, Sansa is the first QitN, Arya sails off to a new adventure, and Tyrion rules because he's GRRM's special favorite. Everything makes sense to me, it was just shoddily written, rushed, and poorly explained. 

I don t think everything will be as you are saying. For example, I can t see sansa as qitn while bran is king of everything else… I think she will end up being important in the vale instead of the north...

But my very small hope is that grrm cares enough about the fans to see that we hated how GOT ended and that he changes some things.

[SeanF]

25 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Interviewer: "When you heard some of what was planned, did you get emotional about it?"

GRRM: "Well, you know most of it is based on what I planned. So I got emotional about it 20 years ago, when I first thought of some of these things." (x)

I don't like the ending either (for once we agree).

If that's the case, then the ending will not be "bittersweet".  It will be nihilistic.  I think that a lot of readers would take the view that he spent thirty odd years just trolling them.

Bran has no qualifications for kingship that I can think of.  As of ADWD, he's becoming a tree.  Tyrion failed upwards in the show;  if he becomes Hand in the books then he will have clawed his way upwards through malevolence.  Daenerys will be Hitler, and Jon Snow an exiled  kinslayer;  Arya will disappear like Elissa Farman;  Jaime will return to Cersei like a dog to its vomit;  the Others will presumably be defeated, but that's the only sweet element I can think of among the bitter.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

Even his post on "not a blog" heavilly hinted about that being his ending. And I think we all agree that D&D would have killed bran long ago if they could… I don t see them making him king if it wasn t grrm's ending and they didn t know how to do it because it is just a really bad ending.

I don t think everything will be as you are saying. For example, I can t see sansa as qitn while bran is king of everything else… I think she will end up being important in the vale instead of the north...

But my very small hope is that grrm cares enough about the fans to see that we hated how GOT ended and that he changes some things.

I just dont feel comfortable picking and choosing who ends differently, it seems like an arbitrary exercise. The Vale is Sansa's prison, that's where LF took her against her will. I dont see her staying there. She creates Winterfell out of snow as she longs for home, so I think that's where she ends up. The North withdrawing from the 7k makes sense because Northern Independence was a main plot point since Book 1. It doesn't make much sense that the North wouldn't want to be ruled by a son of Ned Stark, but if Bran marks the end of rule by inheritance, I guess it makes sense that the North would withdraw. I don't think GRRM is going to change much except the secondary characters around the mains.

I do think the tone of everything is off, it's far too "bitter" than "sweet," and if he was going for a LOTR feeling at the end, he missed the mark big time. Maybe he'll be able to fix that? Who knows.