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Prince Rhaego's Soul

Fair Compensation for House Frey

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3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Note that this happened while Robert was alive and Ned was Hand of the King, so Tywin's raiding was illegal

And so was Tyrion's kidnapping.

Besides, Tywin sent Gregor without a banner, he can just claim it had nothing to do with him.

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

And was it evil of Jaime to break his oaths as a Kingsguard to kill Aerys and save Kings Landing?

Evil is relative. But what he did to Aerys was at best despicable.

Jaime knew Aerys was mad, and even then decided to become a KG for him.

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16 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

And so was Tyrion's kidnapping.

Suspects wanted in question for attempted murder get arrested all the time. Its not kidnapping if its done on behalf of the state, its policing

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32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Suspects wanted in question for attempted murder get arrested all the time. Its not kidnapping if its done on behalf of the state, its policing

The King knew nothing of it.

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31 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Suspects wanted in question for attempted murder get arrested all the time. Its not kidnapping if its done on behalf of the state, its policing

Members of royal family are more equal than others. In this case good brother of the king.

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22 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

The King knew nothing of it.

Course not. Thats why hes got Lords and wifes/daughter/sister of Lords. Or men at arms that owe fealty to said Lord. 

21 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Members of royal family are more equal than others. In this case good brother of the king.

Not even the royal family is above the law. Attempted murder is a thing

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not even the royal family is above the law. Attempted murder is a thing 

There was not a single proof of it. Catelyn kidnapped him because she was stupid.

That's why Robert orders Ned to free Tyrion. His kidnapping was madness

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7 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

There was not a single proof of it.

There's the knife

7 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

 Catelyn kidnapped him because she was stupid.

No, she arrested him because he was framed.

7 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

That's why Robert orders Ned to free Tyrion. 

Robert ordered it because he was weak and justifiably paranoid of his in laws. 

7 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

His kidnapping was madness

Ok. Pretend your a cop or something, like a captain or lieutenant. An attempt on your childs life occurred so you go to court with the weapon. At court you meet a high ranking official whos also a child friend. He tells you who the weapons owner is. Shortly later said owner comes waddling up to you while your surrounded by friends who owe you fealty.

Itd be madness to not arrest him. Yould certainly get fired from the force, maybe just put on leave

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok. Pretend your a cop or something, like a captain or lieutenant. An attempt on your childs life occurred so you go to court with the weapon. At court you meet a high ranking official whos also a child friend. He tells you who the weapons owner is. Shortly later said owner comes waddling up to you while your surrounded by friends who owe you fealty.

Itd be madness to not arrest him. Yould certainly get fired from the force, maybe just put on leave

You don't get put on leave for acting on reasonable grounds which is exactly what this is.  Of course the issue is blurred by the pseudo-medieval context of certain nobility being above the law in practice unless a direct appeal to the king is made (again something both Ned and Catelyn planned though she got ahead of him by bumping into Tyrion unexpectedly).

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, she arrested him because he was framed.

by herself. The knife was meaningless.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Robert ordered it because he was weak and justifiably paranoid of his in laws.  

Or because it was unlawfull kidnapping? As we know, Tyrion was actualy innocent of it.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Itd be madness to not arrest him. Yould certainly get fired from the force, maybe just put on leave

I would never blindly trust in a friend that I have not seem for years and years. First of all I would investigate that story about Tyrion betting agains't Jaime, and if what Petyr said was true then I would seek the king.

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On 6/10/2019 at 4:03 AM, Anti-Stark said:

There is already a poll asking whether the red wedding was justified.  I want to do something different and instead ask what you feel is fair compensation to House Frey for Robb's betrayal.

Be fair-minded about this.  Even the most devout Stark supporter cannot excuse what Robb Stark did to the Freys.  He dragged them into a war.  I will add that it was a stupid war.  The Starks chose to light the fuse for no better reason than to find the person who tried to kill ONE LITTLE BOY.  The Freys did not start this war.  Robb Stark arrived at their doorstep and gave them a bitter choice.  Lord Walder Frey did what any shrewd man would do.  He can't avoid getting mixed up in this war.  He did what any smart man would do and negotiated a deal.  

What do  you consider is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys after Robb broke his oath?

The marriage to Edmure plus another good one to sweeten the deal, plus the rest that was promised seems fair to me. In-world fair anyways. Can't really argue for child betrothals :D 

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

You don't get put on leave for acting on reasonable grounds which is exactly what this is. 

Allowing the alleged criminal to escape is not reasonable. Especially when the suspects family is the richest and most poweful family in the nation. I know bails not a thing, but if it was Tyrion could afford to pay it and then hide from justice

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

 Of course the issue is blurred by the pseudo-medieval context of certain nobility being above the law in practice unless a direct appeal to the king is made (again something both Ned and Catelyn planned though she got ahead of him by bumping into Tyrion unexpectedly).

Only the king is above the law, not its family. Tyrion was supposed to face judgement from Lord Robert as Brightflame faced his uncles in The Hedge Knight.

36 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

by herself. The knife was meaningless.

By Petyr. Not Cat.

And the knife is everything. Its the only piece of evidence that can judge Tyrion guilty or not

36 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

I would never blindly trust in a friend that I have not seem for years and years. 

Cat trusted LF. So did her husband, her sister, her sisters husband, some Tyrells, some Lannisters, some Baratheons. 

Pretty much everyone but Tyrion Varys and Sansa. Hes got game.

36 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

. First of all I would investigate that story about Tyrion betting agains't Jaime, 

Thats what the trial is for. Evidence is produced, witnesses come, prosecutors case crumbles. 

It sucks that Tyrion has to be locked up to await a fair trial in the piece of shit bureaucracy he calls a government. But thats the best system Westeros (and Americas) got. 

An assassination was attempted upon Bran. The law demands judgement. Granted Lysa fucked it all up, but thats on Lysa not Cat. 

I too wouldn't trust an old friend blindly, but ill trust my sibling till the end of days

41 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

, and if what Petyr said was true then I would seek the king.

The king is compromised, only hard evidence will move him, as Ned and Stannis believed.

And Tywin is too powerful. If anyone thinks hes above the law its Tywin (as his actions quickly prove) but hes not. The law is the law. Family Duty Honor. Theres no way the Imp was waddling out of this one

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2 hours ago, The Hoare said:

Or because it was unlawfull kidnapping? As we know, Tyrion was actualy innocent of it.

I agree that it was an unlawful kidnapping but once Ned claimed that Cat took Tyrion captive by his order, it no longer was an unlawful kidnapping but more of an arrest ordered by the Hand of the King, whom has the right to arrest whoever he wants in Westeros, except for the King and maybe the royal family. 

Tyrion was obviously innocent but that dont matter, since he is a suspect of an attempted murder and therefore should be put on trial to prove his innocence. 

You can see that Ned has the power to do this, as he also ordered Tywin to come to kings landing as if he was a servant to answer for the crimes of clegane.

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On 6/9/2019 at 10:03 PM, Anti-Stark said:

There is already a poll asking whether the red wedding was justified.  I want to do something different and instead ask what you feel is fair compensation to House Frey for Robb's betrayal.

Be fair-minded about this.  Even the most devout Stark supporter cannot excuse what Robb Stark did to the Freys.  He dragged them into a war.  I will add that it was a stupid war.  The Starks chose to light the fuse for no better reason than to find the person who tried to kill ONE LITTLE BOY.  The Freys did not start this war.  Robb Stark arrived at their doorstep and gave them a bitter choice.  Lord Walder Frey did what any shrewd man would do.  He can't avoid getting mixed up in this war.  He did what any smart man would do and negotiated a deal.  

What do  you consider is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys after Robb broke his oath?

The Starks had an undeserved reputation for being honorable.  All the clues were there that they aren't.  Walder should have seen that and asked to marry Roslin to Robb before throwing his support to the north.  Make the Starks pay first before giving them anything.  

The red wedding was coming as soon as Robb humiliated the Freys.  He had it coming.  It was the most effective way to take out the Starks.  It was just unfortunate that it violated the tradition of guest rights, but hey, Robb broke his oath.  It's even Steven.  

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9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Suspects wanted in question for attempted murder get arrested all the time. Its not kidnapping if its done on behalf of the state, its policing

Catelyn should have given Robert the opportunity to handle the matter.  She knew the consequences of her actions.  Catelyn is to blame for the Lannisters attacking the river lands.  Is all of that damage worth it to find Bran's attacker?  Bran is just a second son and now an invalid.  

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On 6/10/2019 at 7:49 PM, the Other Wolf said:

F'ing Frey sympathizers! 

At this point,  all Frey's involved in the Red Wedding deserve a slow death.  

Mayhaps if they just went thru with the Tully wedding and continued their support they could have been paid off with a little coin.

 

The problem is that there isn’t a formal set of laws in Westeros. People just do whatever they want and the only firm rule is “trial by combat!!!!”. It’s quite farcical compared to actual medieval courts. Really, if Westeros is War of the Roses then you are getting well into the Renaissance.

So you can’t say, well we’ll send some royal judges to arrest the Freys, take testimony, put them to a trial by jury and then sentence them to hang after a long duration. Just not as melodramatic as Uncat murdering them at a Wedding.

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Some of you chose to interpret my question differently than what I had intended.  You answered a question that was not asked, by your choice.  You know what I meant.  It's not about punishment for the Freys because I do not believe they deserve it.  I was asking about what Robb Stark should be required to pay Walder Frey for his public insult and open disrespect of the old man and his family.  Robb wronged the Freys.  It was not a minor offense.  Clearly some sort of payment from the Starks is required.  

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I want to address this issue of trust that was brought up.  For the sake of this question you are to assume that some kind of wary trust is present; otherwise, there won't be negotiations.  I am asking you what you think is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys to make things close to right.  

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22 minutes ago, Anti-Stark said:

.  I am asking you what you think is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys to make things close to right.  

A frey girl should marry Robb...

As it was supposed to be

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On 6/11/2019 at 6:55 PM, Annalee said:

It was harsh but what Walder chose to do was right for his family

Walder gets a lot of hate for breaking guest rights...Breaking guest rights and breaking oaths are both evil.  It's inconsistent to condemn one and forgive the other.  

Right for his family? You must mean what's right for Walder's ego. It's referenced over and over how WF has thin skin and broods over slights. He's a rather insecure character, just as Robb is a horrible political strategist. While this is was a huge mistake by Robb, it was not in the long term interest of the Freys to break guest right and lose the trust of basically everyone.

Breaking a marriage alliance =/= betrayal and murder of 3,500 people. They're not equivalent and construing it as if they are is disingenuous. Did Robb make a very stupid, catastrophic blunder in breaking the marriage pact? Yes, and Freys deserve some compensation. If Robb could annul his marriage to Jeyne, and marry a Frey, all the better. I find that unlikely. Higher tolls and duties, immediate marriages to Starks and their strongest bannermen and prominent Riverlands houses. Good luck marrying off those sons and daughters now. What's an alliance with the Freys worth when it's open season on Freys in their own lands?

Edited by RainwoodOwl

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23 hours ago, The Hoare said:

by herself. The knife was meaningless.

Or because it was unlawfull kidnapping? As we know, Tyrion was actualy innocent of it.

I would never blindly trust in a friend that I have not seem for years and years.

The knife is not meaningless, it's an extraordinary weapon (valyrian steel) and a hard piece of evidence. LF listened to her story then lied about who owned it, clearly intending to frame Tyrion for organizing the assassination attempt.

And LF was not alone with Catelyn when they met, Varys was also there and did not question or challenge the narrative.  Two Councillors of the King, one appearing to confirm, the other corroborate Tyrion's ownership of the attempted murder weapon.  And it's not as if Cat hasn't already worked out that someone attempted to kill Bran previously by throwing him from the tower, at which time Tyrion was present at WF.

Following the false trail she is set upon is really not that strange.

15 hours ago, The Hoare said:

A frey girl should marry Robb...

As it was supposed to be

I'm going to assume Robb is not prepared to either try and have his marriage annulled or Jeyne conveniently smothered in her sleep.  Frey needs to settle for Edmure.

16 hours ago, Anti-Stark said:

I want to address this issue of trust that was brought up.  For the sake of this question you are to assume that some kind of wary trust is present; otherwise, there won't be negotiations.  I am asking you what you think is fair payment from the Starks to the Freys to make things close to right.  

>>

On 6/10/2019 at 3:21 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Nonetheless the compensation for Robb breaking his vow and marrying Jeyne Westerling seems met by Edmure agreeing to marry one of Walder's daughters in Robb's place. Edmure is after all Walder's liege Lord and the marriage makes Walder's grandson the heir to Riverrun.  Given the circumstances the dowry might be waived or even provided by Robb as a show of contrition as the Starks, Tullys and Freys are united in one big happy family.

Remember, two of Walder's grandsons were being fostered at WF before Theon and Ramsay took over.  Both Robb and Edmure could offer to take more.  No other Stark children are available for marriages due to presumed deaths, disappearances, captivity and there are no other Tully children.

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