A Little Hatred Spolier Thread (The world of the "First Law" is back)

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

I agree, a white face would have been safer but, assuming Zuri is a shape-shifting Eater, she likely went with the dark skin precisely because dark-skinned lady's companions have become a must have fashion accessory in Adua. Also, an Eater would not really be in any danger of physical harm. Even if Savine was racist, given Zuri's extreme competence, I'd assume racist Savine would still have elevated her to show others that she has the best fashion accessory. Another interesting bit, it was Glokta who introduced Zuri to Savine. 

There were always Gurkish immigrants in the Union (remember the Gurkish dentist?).  Now it seems a substantial minority population in the city.  So not so out so place at all.  And if Adua becomes like revolutionary Paris, then the Gurkish will be a prominent faction advocating for equality. 

[Maithanet]

Finished the book last night.  Lots of good points have been brought up.  I also subscribed to the Owl=Broad theory as I was reading it. 

No one has brought this up, but I had actually assumed (with little evidence) that the Weaver was Zacharius.  The way that he was described seemed to match Zach's general vibe in Red Country.  And trying to foment rebellion to improve people's lives does sorta fit his goals of both weakening Bayaz and helping people.  I'll admit, it is unclear whether Zacharius really is trying to help people, but it seemed very possible in RC that he was. 

I understand there isn't much to support this, but I actually like that theory a lot for the next two novels.  I agree that the rebellion against the Union is only going to increase over the trilogy, and IMO it would be more interesting if Bayaz was trying (and failing) to hold things together than that he's (again) the puppetmaster playing both sides to increase his power.  We already saw that in Heroes and to some extent in the first trilogy. 

1 hour ago, Consigliere said:

 Another interesting bit, it was Glokta who introduced Zuri to Savine. 

Yeah, I noticed this and assumed throughout my read that Zuri was in the Inquisition and spying for Glokta.  I never considered that she was an Eater until this thread.  I'll admit it's a possibility, but I'm not convinced.  If that's the case, it would be yet another indication that Glokta is uninformed (and that list is getting pretty long in this book). 

[Mark Antony]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Terez is viewed as a "Styrian degenerate", due to her lesbianism.

From Leo himself

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, Mark Antony said:

From Leo himself

Pot meet kettle.

[Gaston de Foix]

19 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

hat the Weaver was Zacharius.  The way that he was described seemed to match Zach's general vibe in Red Country.  And trying to foment rebellion to improve people's lives does sorta fit his goals of both weakening Bayaz and helping people.  I'll admit, it is unclear whether Zacharius really is trying to help people, but it seemed very possible in RC that he was. 

Is Zach described as bald in red country? In my mind's eye he's hirsute like Radagast (maybe wrongly). 

[Corvinus85]

I'd say that the bald weaver in Rikke's vision is Bayaz, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is the Weaver who's behind the uprising. 

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Gaston de Foix said:

Is Zach described as bald in red country? In my mind's eye he's hirsute like Radagast (maybe wrongly). 

I don't know, I don't think so.  But honestly I wondered if we can be sure that Rikke's weaver=The Weaver.  Bayaz is certainly a puppetmaster with an infinite purse, he doesn't need to also be the Weaver.  I mean, sure that would be a red herring, but prophecies are misinterpreted all the time. 

[JGP]

Finished it last night. You guys have climbed all over this so I don't have much to add.

Shivers having managed to retain some level of humanity gave me some feels. His affection/respect for Rikke lead me to believe she might command a strong faction of former Scale loyalists in the next book. Possibly putting her at odds with Leo. Some interesting overlapping dynamics hinted at. Leo and the disenfranchised nobles, Stour, Clover... would Sabine join them? She might at that. Then you got Orso, Rikke and the Scale loyalists, Shivers and Isern, etc. I hope the overt players in the next book cotton on to the players behind the scenes.    

I really enjoyed Orso,

And I fucking hate Bayaz. 

[Maithanet]

I also agree with the criticism that it seemed weird that Stour Nightfall was taking Leo seriously after thier little chat.  I mean, of course the North is a classic enemy of the Union.  From the Northern Perspective, all of the Protectorate and Angland are Northern territory under illegal occupation.  Even if Stour himself doesn't much care about this, who else are the Northerners going to make war on?  It's not like they have a navy. 

After Stour killed Scale, I assumed he was going to tell Calder than he was not honoring the deal and would be going back to take the Protectorate and Angland both.  But instead he seems to actually want this Lion/Wolf alliance, even though it doesn't seem to offer him much of anything.  I mean, I assume for a little while he'll need to shore up support in the North itself, so not having to worry about his border would help.  Although with Dogman in charge I don't know that he really had much to worry about to begin with, it's not like he's motivated to expand his protectorate or likely to go back on his word. 

[Gaston de Foix]

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

Even if Stour himself doesn't much care about this, who else are the Northerners going to make war on?  It's not like they have a navy. 

After Stour killed Scale, I assumed he was going to tell Calder than he was not honoring the deal and would be going back to take the Protectorate and Angland both.  But instead he seems to actually want this Lion/Wolf alliance, even though it doesn't seem to offer him much of anything. 

This is going to be like the Scots allying with Charles II and invading England during the Civil War.  Stour and Leo are going to team up to invade the Union.  I grant you such an alliance doesn't make sense right now but down the line if the Union is overtaken by revolutionary elements?

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Gaston de Foix said:

This is going to be like the Scots allying with Charles II and invading England during the Civil War.  Stour and Leo are going to team up to invade the Union.  I grant you such an alliance doesn't make sense right now but down the line if the Union is overtaken by revolutionary elements?

I'll admit I don't know much about the English Civil War.  But it's hard to really understand what the North would get out of being involved in a Union Civil War.  Maybe Leo will have a further falling out with Rikke/Dogman and offer Stour the protectorate?  That kind of political machination seems beyond him.

My suspicion is that Leo's character is going to really suffer on the reread.  He is involved in a lot of important plot developments, but once you know what those are, he's a pretty boring guy. 

[Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Maithanet said:

I don't know, I don't think so.  But honestly I wondered if we can be sure that Rikke's weaver=The Weaver.  Bayaz is certainly a puppetmaster with an infinite purse, he doesn't need to also be the Weaver.  I mean, sure that would be a red herring, but prophecies are misinterpreted all the time. 

It could be a case of Sulfur being The Weaver just like he was The Tanner in the first trilogy but it was Bayaz who was pulling the strings. Malmer said that he never really saw the weaver's face but was cut off by Pike coming in just as he was about to describe something. Sulfur is always described as being quite nondescript except for his eyes which left me wondering whether Malmer was about to mention different coloured eyes before being interrupted. 

It's possible Bayaz could be using the peasant revolt to undermine the aristocracy - we know that the powerful nobles have been seizing common land which has made them even richer and, once again just like in the first trilogy, it's Isher, Heugen and Barezin who are causing the most trouble on the Open Council. They're even trying to win the new Lord Brock to their side. 

 

[Gaston de Foix]

11 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I'll admit I don't know much about the English Civil War.  But it's hard to really understand what the North would get out of being involved in a Union Civil War.  Maybe Leo will have a further falling out with Rikke/Dogman and offer Stour the protectorate?  That kind of political machination seems beyond him.

My suspicion is that Leo's character is going to really suffer on the reread.  He is involved in a lot of important plot developments, but once you know what those are, he's a pretty boring guy. 

As you say, the Protectorate, but territory and influence beyond that.  Leo doesn't seem very capable of machinations, admittedly,

When I read the scene involving Malmer and Victarine, I immediately inferred Pike was the weaver and that Malmer was going to mention that the Weaver had burns on his face.  Until I was disabused of this notion by people in this forum, who have now half-way persuaded me that the weaver of Rikke's visions and weaver the revolutionary are not necessarily the same.  

[Caligula_K3]

I'm almost at the end of my reread of the Heroes. I find it interesting how in that book, just about everyone (Gorst, Finree, all the generals) understands that Bayaz is the real power behind the Union, a fact Savine and Orso and Leo seem completely ignorant of less than twenty years later. Their parents have really failed them.

In The Heroes, Bayaz also makes it explicit that conflict and war are necessary to keep the Union in fighting shape, presumably to take on the Gurkish. I think that Bayaz would have no problem orchestrating events like Calder's war and some uprisings if he believed it would lead to a Union that better fit his needs. And with the Prophet seemingly defeated (though I'm sure he'll be back), I could see Bayaz getting overambitious and trying to take the Union in a radically new direction. 

It's great to hear A Little Hatred is selling so well!

[Maithanet]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I'm almost at the end of my reread of the Heroes. I find it interesting how in that book, just about everyone (Gorst, Finree, all the generals) understands that Bayaz is the real power behind the Union, a fact Savine and Orso and Leo seem completely ignorant of less than twenty years later. Their parents have really failed them.

I was both surprised and disappointed that Glotka and Jezal hadn't repeatedly (and with detail) made clear what Bayaz, Sulfur, and Valint&Balk are all about.  Yes, I know that Glotka was adamantly opposed to working with V&B and Jezal told Orso to always respect what Bayaz says, but in both cases the kids didn't really have enough information to understand the gravity of the situation.  This isn't just "these guys are the worst of the bunch", it's "this guys are in a whole different league".  I could understand both of them not wanting to burden their children right away, but Orso and Savine were in their late 20s.  Come on!  I had to wonder if it was for plot related purposes going forward that they aren't armed with sufficient information to try and protect themselves. 

[Corvinus85]

18 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I was both surprised and disappointed that Glotka and Jezal hadn't repeatedly (and with detail) made clear what Bayaz, Sulfur, and Valint&Balk are all about.  Yes, I know that Glotka was adamantly opposed to working with V&B and Jezal told Orso to always respect what Bayaz says, but in both cases the kids didn't really have enough information to understand the gravity of the situation.  This isn't just "these guys are the worst of the bunch", it's "this guys are in a whole different league".  I could understand both of them not wanting to burden their children right away, but Orso and Savine were in their late 20s.  Come on!  I had to wonder if it was for plot related purposes going forward that they aren't armed with sufficient information to try and protect themselves. 

As Bayaz says, he was away for some time, so it's possible since the battle of Osrung that Bayaz was not directly involved in anything in the Union. At least, compared to the reactions in the first trilogy, various people believed he was who he said he was.

Going back to you wondering about the Stour-Leo alliance, I posed a question in a previous post regarding the tribes east of the Crina. With Stranger dead, do we know if the tribes are now under the North's control or do they still need subduing? Maybe Stour will ask Leo for help with that as a first show of good faith, and in return Leo will ask Stour to help him with the Union troubles. Alternatively, a new war will break out with Styria, and Leo will convince Orso to lend him a fleet that will ferry a Northern army to Styria.

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Going back to you wondering about the Stour-Leo alliance, I posed a question in a previous post regarding the tribes east of the Crina. With Stranger dead, do we know if the tribes are now under the North's control or do they still need subduing? Maybe Stour will ask Leo for help with that as a first show of good faith, and in return Leo will ask Stour to help him with the Union troubles. Alternatively, a new war will break out with Styria, and Leo will convince Orso to lend him a fleet that will ferry a Northern army to Styria. 

But how strong could Stour's position possibly be?  He's a warlord who just lost a war (in single combat no less).  So what does he do to bring people back around to his side?  Murder the king.  Stour doesn't come across as much of a thinker or a politician, what with burning Uffrith rather than capturing it. 

Calder isn't kidding that there are going to be some people that are pretty upset about this.  If he doesn't have a ton of problems holding onto his crown next book, I'm going to be very disappointed, because this guy is way more of a fuckup than Bethod or Dow or Logen or Scale. 

[Consigliere]

I was also surprised that Jezal and Glokta did not educate Orso and Savine about how things in The Union really work. Protecting them from the harsh truth when they were younger made sense but Orso is 27 years old and the Crown Prince - he should have been told years ago. Savine is 28 and a very successful and ambitious businesswoman so the chances of her running into Valint & Balk eventually is pretty much guaranteed - a simple "don't ever take their money" without explaining exactly why was very naive of Glokta. 

[red snow]

7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It wasn’t in BSC at least. Remember Ganmark(a brutally effective soldiers and swordsman), left the union in disgrace after having had sexuality exposed and went to serve Duke Orso because Stryria has less stigma attached to homosexuality.

A lot could happen in a couple decades but I imagine opinions surrounding this issue probably haven’t improved.

She does seem to be one of the least appealing new characters to me. Like a rehash of Glokta. Imprisoned. Abused. Joins an institution where the main job is abusing others to establish a sense of power. Takes some peasants under her wing and establish a quasi family relationship with them. 

Good point regarding ganmark. Seems styria is more open about homosexuality or at least more tolerant. Maybe one of leo's men is actually a spy?

I guess vick is like glokta but without the fun interior monologue.

[red snow]

57 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

But how strong could Stour's position possibly be?  He's a warlord who just lost a war (in single combat no less).  So what does he do to bring people back around to his side?  Murder the king.  Stour doesn't come across as much of a thinker or a politician, what with burning Uffrith rather than capturing it. 

Calder isn't kidding that there are going to be some people that are pretty upset about this.  If he doesn't have a ton of problems holding onto his crown next book, I'm going to be very disappointed, because this guy is way more of a fuckup than Bethod or Dow or Logen or Scale. 

I guess all witnesses are dead so Calder and clover could cook up some excuse eg wonderful killed scale or union/protectorate assassin? 

Stour doesn't have to go with "i killed my uncle"