Apple's TV show based on Asimov's FOUNDATION, starring Jared Harris

[karaddin]

On 11/7/2021 at 6:55 AM, Ran said:

Yeah, 170km without food -- okay. But water? Nope, nope, nope. 

Me when the spiral was mentioned in the previous episode: Cleon is in great shape, probably enhanced, if random pilgrims make it then he should be fine

Me after they gave us this information: Lolno, Demerzal is the only one that could even make it halfway. Even most long distance professional athletes are going to be in trouble after doing 40km if they're not hydrating soon, assuming they even manage that far. Cyclists ride 200km in a day and they drink a ton even in relatively cool weather. Barefoot, nearly naked while getting sunburnt to a crisp in an environment as hostile as the worst desserts on Earth? It's not happening lol.

[SpaceChampion]

On 11/6/2021 at 12:36 PM, IFR said:

The estimated year long dose for a trip to Mars would be about ten times the NASA recommended annual limit for low Earth orbit astronauts.

This xkcd graph is actually a very good reference point.

A trip to Mars would unavoidably increase a person's chances of manifesting cancer. However, if the premise of the show were that the space program had continued proportional in effort and expense to what it was for reaching the moon, it's worth noting that standards for radiation exposure were more relaxed then. Further, one can expect that those standards would not change as quickly as they have in our timeline, to accommodate space exploration.

A trip to Mars and then time spent developing an infrastructure would be basically a death sentence. Just a trip though would be merely hazardous, but far from a guarantee of premature death. Especially if upon landing you inhabit a properly shielded, subterranean area.

Surface radiation on Mars is 30 μSv per hour, which is comparable to an airplane flight for many hours.  Though elsewhere I see the per hour dose at 35,000 ft is about 3 μSv.

If the recommended lifetime dose is a half sievert, that is 500,000 μSv which would take 1.9 Earth years of continuous exposure to burn through.

On Mars, at 30 μSv per hours, if you plan to live 80 years within the 0.5 Sv rule, then you'd want to limit exposure to no more than 35 minutes a day.  You can bank that at 4 hours a week.  If you're only expecting to live 40 more years or less, seems reasonable to limit to 8 hours a week if you're staying for the rest of your life.

For a 2 year infrastructure building mission (100-180 days there, 500 days on the surface, 100-180 days back) in the Mars Direct scenario, working 8 hours a day unshielded, you would get only 120,000 μSv dose, plus whatever from the journey.

It's mainly alpha particles you have to worry about, which is what the water shield is for.  Cosmic rays rarer, and would need a magnetic field to effectively block.  I'd think a superconducting ring might be the thing for that, or some advanced piezo-magnetic material I have speculated about (but will probably remain unobtainium).  Hopefully cheaper materials for superconductivity will become economically available.  Such a ring should probably stay in space and used to shuttle back and forth between planets in a cyclic orbit.  In fact, you could do the same with something providing the water shield, and dock a Starship with it for launch/landing.

 

[Clueless Northman]

The only way any human being can walk 170 km in a desert without some outside source of water like a bottle is with a Fremen stillsuit.

[Lord Patrek]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:55 PM, karaddin said:

Me when the spiral was mentioned in the previous episode: Cleon is in great shape, probably enhanced, if random pilgrims make it then he should be fine

Me after they gave us this information: Lolno, Demerzal is the only one that could even make it halfway. Even most long distance professional athletes are going to be in trouble after doing 40km if they're not hydrating soon, assuming they even manage that far. Cyclists ride 200km in a day and they drink a ton even in relatively cool weather. Barefoot, nearly naked while getting sunburnt to a crisp in an environment as hostile as the worst desserts on Earth? It's not happening lol.

TV writers of questionable talent say, "You are wrong!"

[Annara Snow]

14 hours ago, karaddin said:

Me when the spiral was mentioned in the previous episode: Cleon is in great shape, probably enhanced, if random pilgrims make it then he should be fine

Me after they gave us this information: Lolno, Demerzal is the only one that could even make it halfway. Even most long distance professional athletes are going to be in trouble after doing 40km if they're not hydrating soon, assuming they even manage that far. Cyclists ride 200km in a day and they drink a ton even in relatively cool weather. Barefoot, nearly naked while getting sunburnt to a crisp in an environment as hostile as the worst desserts on Earth? It's not happening lol.

Well, it's supposed to be an incredibly exhausting walk where most people die, or go insane. (And for all we know, everyone could be somewhat enhanced in their world compared to ours)

Edited November 7, 2021 by Annara Snow

[Annara Snow]

On 11/5/2021 at 11:33 PM, Werthead said:

Some good stuff with Lee Pace walking in the desert, almost dying, then owning his religious opponent and then ill-advisedly overstepping.

You mean him ordering Demerzel to murder Halima? I don't think that had anything to do with politics, he had already won and she wasn't a real threat. I think it was personal and it was about Demerzel. He wanted to test her loyalty and be sure. And on some level, I feel like he's kind of jealous - both because Demerzel has this faith that rivals her loyalty to him/the dynasty, and, at least in the endm also because she is able to believe in something... The "no soul" thing is obviously nonsense, but the most obvious reason why he had no visions is because he doesn't believe. Not in their religion, and really, I'm not sure he believes in anything at this point, even his faith in the genetic dynasty may be shaken.

When she said that it must be a terrible, empty existence... well, that's what it is. He has no one except his "brothers" (and doesn't even get along that well with Dusk) and Demerzel, his faux-mom/caretaker/companion, who's a robot that can't help but be loyal, and even she seems to have something else - her faith - that she may be prioritizing.

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Annara Snow said:

Well, it's supposed to be an incredibly exhausting walk where most people die, or go insane. (And for all we know, everyone could be somewhat enhanced in their world compared to ours)

I don't think that we've seen any sign of widespread genetic engineering that would explain this. 

They just picked a very high number to be impressive, but literally no one should ever survive the conditions we see -- you're losing a liter or more per hour under that blazing sun and heat, and would likely die in a couple of days max if you didn't replenish .

They should have indicated there were stations for water (but not food) every X kilometers. Then, lots of people would still die, and many more would simply fail to complete it, but it'd explain those who did make it.

It's a minor nitpick, anyways, just such an avoidable one.

I do like your thoughts on Brother Day and what was going on with his decision to send Demerzel to do the dirty work. I agree that he did it out of a sense of grievance and jealousy that she has something else she's loyal to.

Honestly, this whole part of Foundation has been, so far, miles ahead of everything else... and of course it has almost nothing to do with the book, because it's all been invented by Goyer and co. 

[karaddin]

Yeah I agree that interpretation of his motives seems right. And she knew it. It kinda feels like if he hadn't already lost her support he has now and she will be looking for any loopholes her programming allows

[IFR]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:05 PM, SpaceChampion said:

Surface radiation on Mars is 30 μSv per hour, which is comparable to an airplane flight for many hours.  Though elsewhere I see the per hour dose at 35,000 ft is about 3 μSv.

If the recommended lifetime dose is a half sievert, that is 500,000 μSv which would take 1.9 Earth years of continuous exposure to burn through.

On Mars, at 30 μSv per hours, if you plan to live 80 years within the 0.5 Sv rule, then you'd want to limit exposure to no more than 35 minutes a day.  You can bank that at 4 hours a week.  If you're only expecting to live 40 more years or less, seems reasonable to limit to 8 hours a week if you're staying for the rest of your life.

For a 2 year infrastructure building mission (100-180 days there, 500 days on the surface, 100-180 days back) in the Mars Direct scenario, working 8 hours a day unshielded, you would get only 120,000 μSv dose, plus whatever from the journey.

It's mainly alpha particles you have to worry about, which is what the water shield is for.  Cosmic rays rarer, and would need a magnetic field to effectively block.  I'd think a superconducting ring might be the thing for that, or some advanced piezo-magnetic material I have speculated about (but will probably remain unobtainium).  Hopefully cheaper materials for superconductivity will become economically available.  Such a ring should probably stay in space and used to shuttle back and forth between planets in a cyclic orbit.  In fact, you could do the same with something providing the water shield, and dock a Starship with it for launch/landing.

 

Good breakdown! I overestimated the amount of radiation one would be subjected to on Mars, so it's good to have more accurate data.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Things actually happened in this episode.  Not sure what the heck happened at the end though.

[Spockydog]

That was fucking dreadful.

[Lord Patrek]

6 hours ago, Spockydog said:

That was fucking dreadful.

Dreadful as "what a crock of shit?" Or dreadful as something horrendous happened?

[Spockydog]

4 hours ago, Lord Patrek said:

Dreadful as "what a crock of shit?" Or dreadful as something horrendous happened?

The former.

[Lord Patrek]

That's what I thought. . . 

[Ran]

20 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Things actually happened in this episode.  Not sure what the heck happened at the end though.

Had a similar feeling, though about the episode in general.

It definitely is not an episode that gelled well, and the last 10 minutes or so were pretty badly conceived and written.

Spoiler

We get the famous quote -- wisdom from Hardin's father, that she now remembers -- at the start of the episode, which is fine. But everyone just kind of wandering over to the Vault and all this pointing of weapons with no one firing just felt lame as hell. As did Phara's death.

Best bit, yet again, is the Trantor storyline.

Spoiler

The reveal of Azura being part of a conspiracy to replace Brother Dawn, a conspiracy launched years earlier and directly creating the genetic differences in Dawn now, was terrific -- especially because it was immediately dispatched by Brother Dusk. Real surprise, and yet made perfect sense. Terrence Mann's performance was wonderful, I thought, really working at the moment.

Now, events from last episode and now this one make me wonder...

Spoiler

Have they basically ditched the Second Foundation entirely? Raych was supposed to be setting it up, but he's dead, and Gaal is back in hibernation for however long, and Seldon has moved his quantum persona to the Vault on Terminus. I don't quite see how they imagine he develops it, since it seems his plans on that front are awry, unless the idea is that 2nd season will be about the quantum Seldon working to get Hardin to take off and found it?

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Ran

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I agree the events on Trantor and surrounding the Genetic Dynasty are much more cohesive.  They show how good the Empire is at maintaining stasis in the core areas.  The irony is that is the wholely new and independent storyline from the novel.  The stuff on Terminus, based on the novel, is all over the place.

[SpaceChampion]

Finale trailer...  at least one spoiler i think, unless i misunderstood.

Spoiler

Is the Seldon we see a clone?

 

[Ran]

One nitpick about the Trantor storyline:

Spoiler

Azura's gun was knocking chunks out of the wall. Which means it would have killed him dead if she had hit him. Surely the sudden cessation of life would send the nanobots into crisis mode? Should have been some sort of stun energy blaster thing. No idea why they didn't do that.

 

And a VFX issue:

Spoiler

The Thespin Lancers on Terminus was the first time in the show where the VFX didn't impress me. I don't know if it's that typical thing where a show in its first season blows a lot of its budget and time early on, or if it's just that that sequence just failed in blending the CGI to the environment properly, but it just looked a bit of.

Finally, based on stuff that Apple has spoiled from recent teasers...

Spoiler

I'm guessing that Day is not going to be too happy with the lot of the genetic dynasty when he gets back to Trantor and finds out what's been going on. I have no idea what will actually happen, though -- will he decide to let Dawn live, to spite the will of Cleon I and all their predecessors?

 

[Ran]

Oh, this is interesting; Goyer admitted that in interviews he wrongly claimed that "slow ships" travelled 0.5c and that's how they got around -- it would have meant the trip to Terminus would take 50,000 years. Instead, what actually happens is that there are jump gates scattered throughout the galaxy which are what slow ships use to get from place to place, but the non-jump part a trip from one gate to another is what takes the time. 

As folks note on Reddit, this ought to have vast implications regarding trade routes, cultural exchange, etc. being mediated by the location of jump gates, but since this is a patch they made after writing much of the show (Goyer claims they had planned to show a jump gate but cut it -- sounds like it was a late decision to include one to begin with) it's not really reflected in the story.

 

 

[Annara Snow]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

One nitpick about the Trantor storyline:

  Hide contents

Azura's gun was knocking chunks out of the wall. Which means it would have killed him dead if she had hit him. Surely the sudden cessation of life would send the nanobots into crisis mode? Should have been some sort of stun energy blaster thing. No idea why they didn't do that.

 

And a VFX issue:

  Hide contents

The Thespin Lancers on Terminus was the first time in the show where the VFX didn't impress me. I don't know if it's that typical thing where a show in its first season blows a lot of its budget and time early on, or if it's just that that sequence just failed in blending the CGI to the environment properly, but it just looked a bit of.

Finally, based on stuff that Apple has spoiled from recent teasers...

  Hide contents

I'm guessing that Day is not going to be too happy with the lot of the genetic dynasty when he gets back to Trantor and finds out what's been going on. I have no idea what will actually happen, though -- will he decide to let Dawn live, to spite the will of Cleon I and all their predecessors?

 

Spoiler

I already thought Day would not make the decision that Dusk expects him to make regarding Dawn before I saw this trailer.

I immediately thought that yesterday after watching the episode and was going to make a post about my prediction. Cleon XII/Dusk is a strict traditionalist. Day/Cleon XIII has already shown he was unhappy with Dusk(thenDay)/Cleon XII's methods and criticized him for bombing the two planets - pointing out more problems than it solved. He's done some non-traditional things recently to solidify the dynasty's position, and I thought he may now think that changes would be good for the dynasty, in order to survive and adjust to the new circumstances.

I agree that the genetic dynasty stuff has been the most interesting storyline so far., while the Terminus stuff has been... not that compelling. I'm relieved that Phara's storyline is at least over, though I wasn't thrilled at how it ended.

On the other hand, the stuff with Hari Seldon (or "Hari Seldon") is interesting, but I really don't know where it's going. I'm curious how he'll explain his return (?) to the folks on Terminus.

In the latest episode, I found it interesting that, during Gael's voiceover, when she says that line about history being a narrative which can make a villain appear as a hero, they showed the statue of Hari Seldon. I still cling to the theory that he was behind the Starbridge bombing. In any case, there have been many moments during various voiceovers etc. that I have thought "is this about Cleon or Hari?" because so many things could apply to both. Hari's statue on Terminus always makes me think of Cleon's statue on Trantor, Cleon is a god-emperor figure and Hari has been seen as as a godlike/prophet figure by his followers on Terminus, and while Cleon the First is said to have "cheated death" (but has he, really?), it seems that Hari has been more successful in doing that.