The Crown Season 3 & 4 [Spoilers]

[AncalagonTheBlack]

 

[Heartofice]

Really don't know how I feel about that Thatcher impression.. shes gurning so hard it's almost funny.

[Mladen]

Two episodes in...

Corrin is absolutely amazing as Diana and Gillian Anderson is unrecognizable as Thatcher. Somehow they managed to steal the show in these two episodes.

Spoiler

As for Diana... There is such melancholy, sadness in watching her naivete and eagerness. Corrin does amazing job in portraying that inexplicable charm that captured the hearts of millions (and failed on one tragic occasion, as the series show us)

Thatcher's Balmoral test was hilarious. She tried to play by their rules and she failed so she basically changed the game she was playing. I really liked her last conversation with Elizabeth. Gillian Anderson is perfection, through and through!

I am not sure that Dickie's assassination was the best way to start the season, but I feel like Morgan used it to kick off the entire Charles/Diana story through that letter. The entire assassination and its impact is done from Crown's POV, but I feel they missed an important chance of showing more context to that bombing. In Season 3, they did a good job of showing the context of Charles becoming Prince of Wales and people's reaction to that, the importance of him speaking in Welch during his investiture and even the content of his speech. I felt like we needed more of that here too. 

All in all, great start!

[Zorral]

The subject / title needs editing to reflect we are talking about season 4.

Don't want to follow the queen, who states, "We do nothing."  If anyone would know they do nothing it would be the queen, right?    However, as shown, the Irish had some other ideas about what their do nothing means . . . .

My goodness, the presentation of this Thatcher's look, is so Nancy Reagan, which is, appropriate, though Thatcher was, um. more, substantial physically, than the multiple time surgically adjusted, very small Nancy.  Plus, being actors, they were better actors than Thatcher.  Like much that Thatcher is a monster, looking at monsters, doesn't redeem the first set of monsters. Well done!

[Jaxom 1974]

Well, I've only just started and in my limited knowledge of Thatcher, Anderson seems to be a spot on portrayal...I can never get over the fact that I ever knew she was as English as she is American with her upbringing and being bidialactel...

[Cas Stark]

The woman playing Di shows that you can get it right when casting for icons like Diana or Marilyn Monroe.  Not only does she look enough like Di for the part, but she's charismatic enough that she can pull it off.  I'm not sure what I think about Gillian as Thatcher, sometimes it seems too close to a caricature.

 

 

[Denvek]

I've only seen the first episode so far, and while I think Anderson's portrayal of Thatcher works, I also think she could do exactly the same performance in a satirical context and it would work just as well.

[Zorral]

Unlike all the other characters, such as with the Queen, the real life Diana was far more charismatic and attractive on screen than the professional actor playing her is. Gillian Anderson plays Thatcher as a cross between spiky-pointy humpbacked old school witch, and Nancy Reagan's (who too ran a country during her husband’s second term in which he was sinking into alzheimer’s / dementia) face-lifted into asymmetry of feature. I do enjoy the monster-meets-monster of inherited monarch vs. libertarian conservative PM.  

[Red Tiger]

2 hours ago, Denvek said:

I've only seen the first episode so far, and while I think Anderson's portrayal of Thatcher works, I also think she could do exactly the same performance in a satirical context and it would work just as well.

That's not because of Anderson, that is just Thatcher the woman.

[Heartofice]

I’ve no idea what Anderson thinks she’s doing with her Thatcher performance but it just seems to be a parody, I feel like I’m watching Spitting Image or something. I wish they had just chosen someone a bit less well known and a bit older. 
 

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I’ve no idea what Anderson thinks she’s doing with her Thatcher performance but it just seems to be a parody, I feel like I’m watching Spitting Image or something. I wish they had just chosen someone a bit less well known and a bit older. 
 

I don't know much about Thatcher in terms of her mannerisms and such, but I honestly didn't recognize my Scully

***

So, after four episodes, I find this season to be incredibly sad. Yeah, there are moments I thought they needed a few good slaps all around, but all in all, they are all so messed up that I pity them.

(Episodes 3 and 4 spoilers)

Spoiler

The TV series, so far, doesn't bring anything new to the table regarding Diana. We all knew about all those facts. But, the way they presented those facts makes one incredibly sad about this poor girl stuck between her own family's ambition and The Crown's desire to sort Charles out. 

Helena Bonham Carter stole the 3rd episode with her speech that they can't allow Charles to marry. And you just seem them being stuck in this vicious circle, foolishly clinging to the idea that somehow matters of the heart won't matter.

Anne remains the only grounded member of the family. Her jealousy of Diane was, IMO, quite normal and understandable, 

I thought they wouldn't get anywhere near Andrew... Especially after the scene in which Phillip refused to say who her favorite is. Also, at the end, when Phillip and Elizabeth made conclusion that she has to live because her children are so screwed up to actually take the responsibilities she had, seems like an internal joke on Queen's longevity. Simply put, she has to live  

In previous seasons, I think the characters made peace with what they were supposed to do, even though they would lash out occasionally. Here, we see the next generation being utterly unable to do that which, in many ways, make them infinitely more tragic to watch.

 

[DMC]

So I just finished the season.  A few general thoughts I'll try to keep essentially spoiler free.  Emma Corrin is amazing as Diana.  There's very few pure or true "good guys" to root for in this show anymore, especially after Coleman took over for Foy last season, but Corrin does a great job anchoring the season with that.  Also, ok, guess this would technically be a spoiler..

Spoiler

And while I was only 12 when Diana died, she does seem to have her down perfectly.  I was surprised to read they're recasting her with Elizabeth Debicki for season 5.  I guess it makes sense as Debicki is five years older - and looks considerably more mature - but it kinda sucks Corrin only got one season.

I think Coleman did a much better job with the role this season than the third.  Really a lot of great work from her even though (as mentioned) the role puts her in a very unenviable position.  Anderson as Thatcher is...right on point in terms of Hollywood.  I'm not sure I've fully formed an opinion on how the writing portrays Thatcher, but Anderson does a great job with what she's given.  One thing that can certainly be said is that, if you're cynical, this definitely was a successful effort to fill in the trophy case for the showrunner's partner.

Overall I think this was an improvement on Season 3, which out of a couple highlights was pretty limited.  The plotlines were, naturally, much more juicy for the viewer, but I think they did a much better job with the characterization than last season which is by far what's most important to my enjoyment. 

In terms of episodes, dunno how many have gotten to it yet, but episode 4 "Favourites" is definitely my favorite.  Ingenious episode and whole lotta fun.

[Heartofice]

7 hours ago, Mladen said:

I don't know much about Thatcher in terms of her mannerisms and such, but I honestly didn't recognize my Scully

I mean Scully has really thrown herself into the role , which she has done in a number of shows, mostly successfully. I think she has bitten off more than she can chew here though. It is very difficult to portray a very famous character that most people have already built up in their heads, and I think its harder when you yourself are well known. 

I think back to Lithgow's Churchill, which in reality wasn't an especially accurate depiction of how Churchill spoke or looked or acted. I was put off for about 10 mins, but after that I totally fell into believing his character. He didn't do an impersonation as much as create a facsimile of Churchill that had his essence. I liked it.

Then you also have Bonham Carter, who really just seems to be playing herself, and I don't see her as anyone else but Bonham Carter. I had the some problem with Colman last year too which was a bit of an issue. 

In general I do wish the show had just decided to cast unknown actors, otherwise it can really break the illusion.

[Mladen]

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I mean Scully has really thrown herself into the role , which she has done in a number of shows, mostly successfully. I think she has bitten off more than she can chew here though. It is very difficult to portray a very famous character that most people have already built up in their heads, and I think its harder when you yourself are well known. 

I think it all comes down to how familiar some of these characters are. I mean, I was born in 1989 in Serbia and Iron lady era was over by the time I became political or aware of her existence. So, I think that Gillian's performance may seem a bit like a caricature to Britons, but probably for the rest of us, she is doing a perfect work. 

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think back to Lithgow's Churchill, which in reality wasn't an especially accurate depiction of how Churchill spoke or looked or acted. I was put off for about 10 mins, but after that I totally fell into believing his character. He didn't do an impersonation as much as create a facsimile of Churchill that had his essence. I liked it.

You have a point. I am still debating Lithgow v Oldman in terms of who was the better Chruchill. I think Corrin gave more naturalistic performance than Anderson, but overall I think both women did amazing work.

4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Then you also have Bonham Carter, who really just seems to be playing herself, and I don't see her as anyone else but Bonham Carter. I had the some problem with Colman last year too which was a bit of an issue. 

Not sure about this. I was listening to some of her interviews and it seems Helena understood Margaret perfectly. I will never forget the first shot of her holding the cigarette as Margaret - it was pure perfection. I feel as Colman simply didn't enjoy the role as Foy may have. I feel as if she came, she did her best, did her work and that's that. She is absolutely amazing but there is something missing. 

That said, I like her and Menzies together. I had such a great laugh, when in Episode 7

Spoiler

The two of them talked about C&D's marriage and Elizabeth informed him that Diana danced for Charles... To which he replied "Why you never danced for me" and she replied "As I recall, you had your own ballerina for that". 

I am finishing the season today and all in all, it looks great. 

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Mladen said:

I think it all comes down to how familiar some of these characters are. I mean, I was born in 1989 in Serbia and Iron lady era was over by the time I became political or aware of her existence. So, I think that Gillian's performance may seem a bit like a caricature to Britons, but probably for the rest of us, she is doing a perfect work. 

You have a point. I am still debating Lithgow v Oldman in terms of who was the better Chruchill. I think Corrin gave more naturalistic performance than Anderson, but overall I think both women did amazing work.

Not sure about this. I was listening to some of her interviews and it seems Helena understood Margaret perfectly. I will never forget the first shot of her holding the cigarette as Margaret - it was pure perfection. I feel as Colman simply didn't enjoy the role as Foy may have. I feel as if she came, she did her best, did her work and that's that. She is absolutely amazing but there is something missing. 

That said, I like her and Menzies together. I had such a great laugh, when in Episode 7

  Reveal hidden contents

The two of them talked about C&D's marriage and Elizabeth informed him that Diana danced for Charles... To which he replied "Why you never danced for me" and she replied "As I recall, you had your own ballerina for that". 

I am finishing the season today and all in all, it looks great. 

The thing about Maggie Thatcher is that it's almost impossible to comprehend that she was a real person, who really talked like that. I mean I grew up in 80's Britain and it never really crossed my mind what a strange character she was, outside of just Spitting Image characters. But now looking back her whole mannerism and way of talking is just an anathema to me. It just seems bizarre. So when Anderson attempts something close to an imitation it comes off as almost comedic. 

The same thing is probably the same of Churchill, nobody speaks like him these days, maybe they didn't back then either. So depending on the medium you are presenting him it might be worth toning it down and just giving a hint of his mannerisms. Lithgow I think did that quite well. Oldmans is certainly the more accurate portrayal in some ways, but I'm not sure I love it. 

The issue I have with Bonham Carter is simply that she's just too famous. I liked her performance but she stands out as someone I know all too well.

[Zorral]

About half way through: think Coleman's doing a bang up job, better than anyone else, except maybe Gillian Anderson.  I forced myself to go back and look at Thatcher emoting, and o lordessa -- what a witchy thing that was.  What she did was even worse.  However the series doesn't at all make comprehensible how she succeeded and got through all this dreadful neolibertarian legislation, paving the bed for ultimately BoZo and their cockamamy ideas for the economy.  I know how Reagan did it, but not how she did it. I mean, within The Crown, all we see is push back from Members, not anyone supporting her.  Somebody must have ....

The real Diana was just ... breathtaking.  It was because of her our household first paid any attention to the UK monarchy as is, as opposed to the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, when  UK monarchs and government hooks into US history.

[DMC]

5 hours ago, Mladen said:

That said, I like her and Menzies together. I had such a great laugh, when in Episode 7

  Reveal hidden contents

The two of them talked about C&D's marriage and Elizabeth informed him that Diana danced for Charles... To which he replied "Why you never danced for me" and she replied "As I recall, you had your own ballerina for that". 

I am finishing the season today and all in all, it looks great. 

Yeah that was hilarious.  I also enjoyed in Favourites...

Spoiler

How Philip knows who Elizabeth's favorite is and won't tell her, setting up the episode while she insists he come back and tell her.  Then at the end Philip reassuring her when she's - very understandably - concerned about how all four of her children turned out.

 

4 hours ago, Zorral said:

However the series doesn't at all make comprehensible how she succeeded and got through all this dreadful neolibertarian legislation, paving the bed for ultimately BoZo and their cockamamy ideas for the economy.  I know how Reagan did it, but not how she did it. I mean, within The Crown, all we see is push back from Members, not anyone supporting her.

I don't think that's what the show's about and I wasn't expecting it.  I will say, generally, the show took a markedly more partisan political stance in its depiction of the political history this season than it ever has.  I don't have any problem with that, but I think it affects what you're referring to - focusing on Thatcher's failures/mistakes/flaws rather than her political successes, of which there were obviously many.

[Zorral]

I was a bit surprised, gotta say, on how that scene of Andrew's luncheon with the Queen played out . . . .

Though I did guess immediately Philip brought it up

Spoiler

that Andrew was his her favorite child, like Ann was his.

 

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Though I did guess immediately Philip brought it up

Spoiler

Yeah while watching that I definitely wondered how much the Epstein news informed that depiction of Andrew, seemed a bit too on the nose, especially with the film he relates involving a "nubile 17 year old."  It did make me laugh at the end of the ep though when Elizabeth is like "if he doesn't change..."

 

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

I was a bit surprised, gotta say, on how that scene of Andrew's luncheon with the Queen played out . . . .

Though I did guess immediately Philip brought it up

  Reveal hidden contents

that Andrew was his her favorite child, like Ann was his.

 

When Phillip brought it up, I thought it would be left there. I was surprised to see him on screen.

That said, I have finished the season. And oh boy, do I understand why the Palace is so angry about this.

In previous seasons, I always thought that even though the show was aiming for objective POV, the narrative was pn the Crown's side. Overall, it was if not positive, then at least humane portrayal of these people. This year

Spoiler

 

I feel like the entire family self-destroyed in those 10 years. We see Elizabeth's negligence showing her ugly side, we see wounded Charles turning into a bully. Even Anne who seemed cool last season was transformed into the jealous, snobby person who really didn't care about anything but herself. Margaret's tragedy was losing her purpose in royal life, Phillip was unable to do anything meaningful.

The way they portrayed Diana is truly sad, It is a Shakespearean story of 20th century. In terms of the narrative here, Charles did her nasty. And not just him. He is portrayed as the small, petty person. He reminded me so much of Viserys. No wonder Queen is staying alive