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Heresy 228 and one over the eight

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9 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I get frustrated too, but don't sink to their level.

Oh, I'm just getting started.  I'm well beyond frustrated.  I'm angry as hell.

Edited by LynnS

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12 hours ago, corbon said:

Well, @LynnS was throwing out the idea tha Ned's dream had flavour similar to Jojen's green dream and running with it. I challenged her on that premise. She backed herself up with a quote I'd not found (though I don't think that quote shows 'similar flavour') and explained further: 

I joking changed the first part to say that green  all dreams are hard to interpret (I don't think its a fair call to pin that as a defining factor of green dreams in particular as opposed to dreams in general), but the 'true dreams sent by the gods' part and 'can't be changed' part are her definition as pertains to the idea that Ned's dream shows green-dream-like qualities, or rather, flavour.

All I'm wondering, still, is how Ned's dream shows a flavour of green dreams?

I'm not arguing Ned's dream never changed - in fact I'm arguing it did, so where's the green dream flavour?
Its a cool idea, that Ned's dream might be a green dream, but what is there to actually back it up? So far, nothing demonstrated AFAICT.

 

To be fair, LynnS original point was that she thought the dream may have been sent from the Weirwood (Weirnet).  And there is some textual evidence that a powerful telepath hooked into the weirnet could very well have sent Ned this dream.

Quote

“I have been many things, Bran.  Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you ... except in dreams.  I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one.  I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you.

So Brynden Rivers who can only approach his targets in dreams, had been watching Eddard Stark since Eddard’s birth.

If Brynden wished to send Eddard a warning, he would have done it through a dream.  Perhaps an old dream, sent from an old place (godswood), from the old gods.

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18 hours ago, Ran said:

You claimed there's no evidence at all that Lyanna so much as touched a lance.

Well, actually, I said:

22 hours ago, JNR said:

She can't be shown in canon as picking up a lance in her life

Are you now claiming your app is canon?

18 hours ago, Ran said:

there is reason for why people believe these things

Sounds like we agree. Your app is not full of facts... it's full of beliefs

Meanwhile, as GRRM pointed out in the actual canon:

Quote

 

Pycelle was lost. "But that is from the greyscale that near killed her as a babe, poor thing."

"I like my tale better," said Littlefinger, "and so will the smallfolk. Most of them believe that if a woman eats rabbit while pregnant, her child will be born with long floppy ears."

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Wow. So I was being too nice saying it was a "mod's pinky promise" that the app information was correct. The truth is far worse. In reality the mod was indisputably dishonest in the way they presented the information. 

Well, I couldn't go that far. Ran says GRRM agreed for app info to go into the app.  That's true, I'm sure. 

So it's not really Ran's fault if a lot of the app info will be proven completely wrong, down the road.

The reason the info is wrong is simply that people in Westeros (the continent) leaped to silly conclusions and believed the wrong things. This is a thing we constantly see them doing, all through the canon, just as people on Westeros the Web site do.

So for instance the app says Aerys knew where Lyanna was in the last few months of the war and he never bothered to take her hostage... never notified Robert or Ned he had her... and thus, he completely wasted the leverage he might have obtained from her. 

Meanwhile, he did leverage Elia in just that way to ensure the loyalty of the Dornish, and he did it at exactly the same time.

Well... this may actually be what people in Westeros believe.  But no serious student of the canon should believe it.  It's just hilariously wrong and will be shown as such, I have no doubt.

 

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On 11/21/2019 at 9:01 AM, Melifeather said:

My first thoughts are the symbolism behind the entire tourney itself. It's "play-acting" at war, is it not? That is how Catelyn viewed Renly's tourney:

ACOK - Catelyn II

Quote

This is madness, Catelyn thought. Real enemies on every side and half the realm in flames, and Renly sits here playing at war like a boy with his first wooden sword.

Quote

"King Robb is warring, my lord," Catelyn replied with icy courtesy, "not playing at tourney."

ACOK - Catelyn VI

Quote

Brienne paused to listen for a moment, broad shoulders hunched and thick arms crossed against her chest. A mob of ragged boys raced by, screeching and flailing at each other with sticks. Why do boys so love to play at war? Catelyn wondered if Rymund was the answer. The singer's voice swelled as he neared the end of his song.

My point is, if a tourney is "playing at war", then the crowning of a maid could be interpreted as a symbolic death or sacrifice. At the beginning of the infamous Harrenhal Tourney, it was said that the daughter of the castle was declared the queen of love and beauty, and that she was defended by her four brothers. "Defended" from death? Or were they protecting her virginity? This all sounds like some Shakesperian tragedy-play unfolding! 

I wanted to return to this, because after rereading the Mercy chapter I also returned to the Cat of the Canals chapter to add this definition of tourney - that a tourney is "play acting at war". In Cat of the Canals, plays are held on ships, and the ship where Mercy acts at is The Ship. It is my opinion, the hidden story in the Cat of the Canals chapter is about the (play) Tourney at Harrenhal.

To review - the Cat of the Canals chapter begins with a description of Braavos. The hidden story is that it is also about the Riverlands. I came to this conclusion by noting the parallels between the descriptions of landmarks: 

The Long Canal is a mirror of the Trident. It ends at the Moon Pool. The Trident ends at Maidenpool

The Prestayns and Antaryons are two square towers - one on each side of the Long Canal. They are mirrors to the Twin Towers of the Freys that spans the Green Fork of the Trident. Down at the end of the Long Canal lies the Palace of Truth also called the Hall of Truth. The Palace of Truth is on an island located on the western end of the Green Canal. It's parallel is the Isle of Faces in the God’s Eye. The “green copper domes” of the Palace of Truth must be referring to either the weirwood trees on the island or the green men, or both. Tree tops and the tops of heads can both be said to be domes. The Isle of the Gods is across the water from the Palace of Truth to the northwest. Of course the God’s Eye and Isle of Faces is southeast of the Twin Towers of the Freys, which are located on the Green Fork of the Trident.

The sweetwater river is an aquaduct made of stone and is a series of arches. It’s mirror is the Frey’s bridge which is a stone arch between the two towers. The Frey's bridge is guarded in the middle by the Water Tower. It has arrow slits, murder holes, and portcullises for defense, which I believe mimic the defensive details of the Titan of Braavos. The current titan of the riverlands is Walder Frey.

The fishmarket on the Long Canal could be either one of the inns in the Riverlands, or symbolic of all of them, or it could be one of the harbor cities like Seagard or Fairmarket, which happens to have a wooden bridge over the Blue Fork. Lastly it could be symbolic of every place captive women would be brought to or the location they were found and captured at.

Silty Town district = the Neck is directly north of the Twins

The plays in Braavos are held on ships. If the north is underwater then ships would be needed if you wanted to hold a "play". Arya/Cat notes:

Quote

 

AFFC - Cat of the Canals

"I know what Blind Beqqo puts in the hot sauce he uses on his oysters," she would say. "I know the mummers at the Blue Lantern are going to do The Lord of the Woeful Countenance and the mummers at the Ship mean to answer with Seven Drunken Oarsmen. I know the bookseller Lotho Lornel sleeps in the house of Tradesman-Captain Moredo Prestayn whenever the honorable tradesman-captain is away on a voyage, and moves out whenever the Vixen comes home."

 

IMO the Blue Lantern "ship" is referring to Winterfell, while THE Ship is the Tourney at Harrenhal. Just a quick aside about the Blue Lantern - I think GRRM has drawn inspiration from comics - Marvel in particular, but DC too, and DC has a well-known series about the Green Lantern. Breaking this down a bit - "green" has been associated with "truth" in our story. Greenseers see the truth in the past, present, and future, and people have green dreams, though while they may not understand them until hind site, Jojen says they never lie. "Blue" on the other hand is associated with "death". There are the blue eyes of death in the wights and white walkers, and Ned's dream about blue rose petals streaking across the sky. 

Just a quick backstory about the Green Lantern before we examine the meaning behind "lantern". After a railway crash, a railroad engineer named Alan Scott came into possession of a magic lantern (glass candle?) that spoke to him and said it would bring power. Thousands of years ago a mystical green flame meteor fell to Earth in ancient China. The voice of the flame prophesied that it would act three times: 1) once to bring death (a lamp-maker named Luke crafted the green metal of the meteor into a lamp), 2) once to bring life (the lamp came into possession of a mental institution patient which restored him to sanity), and 3) once to bring power (which is when Alan Scott received it.) This sounds remarkably like Quaithe’s prophecy for Dany!

It appears that "lantern" is associated with a meteor that contains magic. The books tells us of the Dayne's sword Dawn being forged from a falling star. What if that meteor was also what brought magic? Winterfell has been struck by magic - symbolically demonstrated by the imagery of a lightning bolt fastened upon the Sealord Palace's tallest tower.

Putting these various ideas into one name - the Blue Lantern - is admittedly, difficult to articulate plainly. The mummers at the Blue Lantern are going to do (the play) The Lord of the Woeful Countenance. Rickard certainly was "woeful" when Lyanna was abducted. The "lantern" indicates that he desired "power", but the mummers at THE Ship (tourney at Harrenhal) mean to answer with Seven Drunken Oarsmen. 

I have to take a break right now, but when I return we can discuss the possible meaning behind the name of this play.

Edited by Melifeather

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4 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Where in canon (not a mod's pinky promise) does it say that Lyanna was a superb horse rider?

I believe that Barbery Dustin compares Dominick Bolton to Lyanna saying that he could ride better than him even though she was half a horse. 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

Oh for fuck sake.  Do you really think that Jojen is the only character in this story who can have a green dream?  Jojen gives us the example of what a fucking green dream looks like.  Do you really think the Ned's old dream doesn't have the same characteristics as Jojen's dream?  Just because Ned doesn't know what a fucking green dream is doesn't mean he didn't have one.

Lmao. Geez. I don’t think I’ve ever seen you so angry. No I don’t. What makes you think that it does? I realize that it’s possible. I’m just not ready to definitely say that it is. 

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

There's Lady Barbrey's comment that Lyanna and Brandon were so good on horseback that she called them centaurs. As for the tilting at rings, I'm not sure where in the books this is mentioned. Only the app as far as I know.

I get frustrated too, but don't sink to their level. Some people get uncomfortable discussing symbolism. They want the interpretation to be clear and straightforward, but that is only skimming the surface in this series. This thread was begun under the topic of discussing symbolism and dreams, but some are refusing to examine all of the possibilities if it doesn't fit the R+L=J narrative.

The imagery in Ned's dream is like a green dream. Just like the imagery in Jojen's green dream about the sea flowing over the walls of Winterfell, the imagery of "A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." is an allegory - a symbolic representation or visual expression that uses symbolism to convey truths or generalizations about human conduct or experience.

This is a good argument, but don’t ALL dreams include some form of symbolism? Maybe we should be looking at everyone’s dreams and giving them equal weight until we can find a pattern forming. Is it possible that all dreams are also green ones? 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh, I'm just getting started.  I'm well beyond frustrated.  I'm angry as hell.

Good. Sometimes you need to let it out or too much bottled up inside. Just Breathe. Lol

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52 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I couldn't go that far. Ran says GRRM agreed for app info to go into the app.  That's true, I'm sure. 

So it's not really Ran's fault if a lot of the app info will be proven completely wrong, down the road.

The reason the info is wrong is simply that people in Westeros (the continent) leaped to silly conclusions and believed the wrong things. This is a thing we constantly see them doing, all through the canon, just as people on Westeros the Web site do.

So for instance the app says Aerys knew where Lyanna was in the last few months of the war and he never bothered to take her hostage... never notified Robert or Ned he had her... and thus, he completely wasted the leverage he might have obtained from her. 

Meanwhile, he did leverage Elia in just that way to ensure the loyalty of the Dornish, and he did it at exactly the same time.

Well... this may actually be what people in Westeros believe.  But no serious student of the canon should believe it.  It's just hilariously wrong and will be shown as such, I have no doubt.

 

Ran put "BS app" in quotes as if info in the app is actually true. When you've already demonstrated, and he should know as well as anyone, that there is plenty of BS info in the app. He presents info from the app as if it is canonical fact all on his word that GRRM approved of such and such. I call that dishonest.

Ran saying GRRM approved of something means nothing. We don't know whether it is true or not that GRRM approved it or not. 

Of course things don't really go south until people start building theories off of Ran's word, as if it is printed canon.

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22 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I believe that Barbery Dustin compares Dominick Bolton to Lyanna saying that he could ride better than him even though she was half a horse. 

Thank you. It's been awhile since I've read Dance. I'm only on ASOS on this reread. In hindsight I should have asked if there is canon saying Lyanna practiced tilting at rings. Which I believe there isn't, since it appears to be app info only.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Ran put "BS app" in quotes as if info in the app is actually true.

I put BS app because you are spouting the very thing that JNR has been pushing for ages: that in fact I'm a liar about my communications with GRRM in the course of working with him.

And I'm kind of tired of it. Go find somewhere else to be conspiracy nuts.

 

Edited by Ran

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

To be fair, LynnS original point was that she thought the dream may have been sent from the Weirwood (Weirnet).  And there is some textual evidence that a powerful telepath hooked into the weirnet could very well have sent Ned this dream.

So Brynden Rivers who can only approach his targets in dreams, had been watching Eddard Stark since Eddard’s birth.

If Brynden wished to send Eddard a warning, he would have done it through a dream.  Perhaps an old dream, sent from an old place (godswood), from the old gods.

Absolutely crazy idea.... Can our connections to animals... or more specifically our “pets” take away our ability to experience our dreams?Brandon and Lyanna had wolf blood and were able to see more clearly what was coming.   Ned did not.

Let me explain where this is coming from. Or at least attempt to do so. I was just thinking that Ned only receives one dream whereas we witness Jojen receiving many. Maybe this was the only time that he was able to be reached, whereas Brandon and Lyanna were able to see a broader picture? Maybe that is what caused them to react so rashly?  If that’s the case, did someone send those dire wolves to take AWAY those dreams? 

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

Well, actually, I said:

Are you now claiming your app is canon?

Sounds like we agree. Your app is not full of facts... it's full of beliefs

Meanwhile, as GRRM pointed out in the actual canon:

 

Normally I’d dismiss this, but in a book series where all of the old tales seem to be coming back to life, I think I might want to start looking more closely at bunnies. Or for that matter animals in general.

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14 hours ago, corbon said:

I joking changed the first part to say that green 

That wasn't a joke.  That was your ego and compulsive need to nitpick over words like flavor.  You gave me an F for a bad argument.  I'm giving you an F for being too restrictive and rigid in your framework.

I don't need a lesson from you in logic or semantics and I'm not giving you license to ridicule me or invite others to do the same.  I'm not interested in what you have to say anymore.

Edited by LynnS

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22 minutes ago, Ran said:

I put BS app because you are spouting the very thing that JNR has been pushing for ages: that in fact I'm a liar about my communications with GRRM in the course of working with him.

And I'm kind of tired of it. Go find somewhere else to be conspiracy nuts.

 

Pretty sure I’m NOT a conspiracy nut, but you never know. I can understand your frustration. GRRM has allowed it to be public knowledge that he has approved the app and that it contains correct information. If you were making things up about his work erroneously then I doubt he would do that. 
 

My question to you then becomes, is it not possible, as the others have demonstrated, that he has allowed doubt to creep in by allowing the app to reflect only what the reader knows at this exact moment?  That later the story might very well lead to changes in its (the app’s) contents down the road? GRRM is a tricksy bird. 

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46 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Thank you. It's been awhile since I've read Dance. I'm only on ASOS on this reread. In hindsight I should have asked if there is canon saying Lyanna practiced tilting at rings. Which I believe there isn't, since it appears to be app info only.

I’m pretty sure that it does not exist. But at this point it basically comes down to the question of do you believe that GRRM, who has publicly admitted to giving RAN access to other unknown information is lying or not. He has already backed RAN’s claim to have that information and has publicly said that he has approved the app’s content. I know myself, that I am personally willing to stipulate that the app contains either the information that he WANTS the reader to know at that time, or he was careless in reviewing that information. With the meticulous way that GRRM approaches his work, I’m more inclined to believe the first. 

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31 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That wasn't a joke.  That was your ego and compulsive need to nitpick over words like flavor.  You gave me an F for a bad argument.  I'm giving you an F for being too restrictive and rigid in your framework.

I don't need a lesson from you in logic or semantics and I'm not giving you license to ridicule me or invite others to do the same.  I'm not interested in what you have to say anymore.

I am far from trying to ridicule you. I’m just trying to express what I see as a flaw in your logic. I mean is it not true that most, if not all dreams in general contain an element of symbolism to them? Else we would not have so many people trying to analyze their own dreams to find their true meaning. I’m just not sure that it’s a distinguishing factor. 

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3 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

My question to you then becomes, is it not possible, as the others have demonstrated, that he has allowed doubt to creep in by allowing the app to reflect only what the reader knows at this exact moment?

We never told George that he should only answer questions within that framework. The questions were little different than what he gets from fans at cons and in emails back in the day, so essentially are at that level save they're for an official project, and so his responses indicate what is true or what he intends to indicate as true in that context. If you asked George at a con, "Did Lyanna tilt at rings?" and he said, "Yes", what would you make of that? If you are a reader who only trusts what is on the written page, then disregard it. If you are willing to accept the author's extra-textual commentaries, then it's reasonable to believe that he confirmed something, presumably in part because he doesn't think it's that big of a revelation.


For this project, he was given questions and quotes from the text and asked if they were okay or not, or if he could clarify. He would say yes or no, he would say "probably" or "don't know", he'd clarify, or even say something like "no details" to some questions where he has an answer but doesn't want to share it.

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21 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Loras won because he rode a mare in heat, which caused Gregor's stallion to be difficult to control.

 

Do we know anything about the horse that TKotLT rode in TToHH? I don’t remember there being any. 

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