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Star wars...which befouls the OT legacy more...PT

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Posted (edited)

For all the problems the prequels had and there were many, at least they tried something new. Disney and Abrams basically went out of their way to copy TOS so much so that it zapped all of the fun out of these sequel films.

 

I’ll take original and bad over an inferior copy of something I love. All I see in these new films is wasted ideas and potential; plus Abrams out dated mystery box crap, which I’ve never been a fan of.

 

The sad part is episode VII has several moments that I really like. The other two films.......not so much.

Edited by sifth

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When it comes down to it isn't this a simple topic?  I mean the actual quality (good or bad) of the prequels or sequels is irrelevant.  Do the prequels  change anything in the OT or how you look at it?  Little bits here and there but nothing important.  Dos RoS completely and utterly nullify the entire back half of Return of the Jedi as being pointless?  Yes.  Seems pretty simple.

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Also, to back up my PT>ST point id also include that the lightsaber fights were, for me, way, way better. The combatants might have something to do with this subconsciously, but I didnt really enjoy any of the ST fights even close to those of the PT.

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7 minutes ago, The Last Storm said:

Also, to back up my PT>ST point id also include that the lightsaber fights were, for me, way, way better. The combatants might have something to do with this subconsciously, but I didnt really enjoy any of the ST fights even close to those of the PT.

I still think that TFA's fight was the closest anything has come to using the fight as actual emotional dialog like the OT did. It was great, both the fight with Finn and the fight with Rey. 

I personally loved the look of TLJ's fight and the style it was shot in as well as some of those cool bits. Even if they had to disappear a knife or two.

TRoS didn't grab me at all. I don't know why, but none of the fights were that special to me. The landscape of the ocean was cool, but the actual fight wasn't. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I still think that TFA's fight was the closest anything has come to using the fight as actual emotional dialog like the OT did. It was great, both the fight with Finn and the fight with Rey. 

I personally loved the look of TLJ's fight and the style it was shot in as well as some of those cool bits. Even if they had to disappear a knife or two.

TRoS didn't grab me at all. I don't know why, but none of the fights were that special to me. The landscape of the ocean was cool, but the actual fight wasn't. 

What bothered me about that fight was that Finn even picked up a goddamn saber and struck a blow against Ren. I don’t care if Ren was wounded, lightsabers are not something you just randomly pick up and have any skill with.

That did the same thing to me when as when I saw Arthur Dayne fighting with 2 swords on the show.

Edited by The Last Storm

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2 minutes ago, The Last Storm said:

What bothered me about that fight was that Finn even picked up a goddamn saber and struck a blow against Ren. I don’t care if Ren was wounded, lightsabers are not something you just randomly pick up and have any skill with.

Well, TRoS answered that (in theory) - he's force-sensitive. The other thing about that is that Ren was absolutely fucking with him. That's one of the best things about the fight - it's so very obvious watching how he moves that Ren is entirely contemptuous of what Finn can do and that he poses no threat to him at all. As soon as Finn shows even the slightest threat (that small hit he does) Ren finishes him off just like that. 

Which I really love; I love how petty and cruel you see Ren be here, and you see it in the choreography. It's thoughtful and fairly clear, and it's a great example of using action to further story and character. Adam Driver was a great choice, as it turns out, and that's one of the ways it shows.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Well, TRoS answered that (in theory) - he's force-sensitive. The other thing about that is that Ren was absolutely fucking with him. That's one of the best things about the fight - it's so very obvious watching how he moves that Ren is entirely contemptuous of what Finn can do and that he poses no threat to him at all. As soon as Finn shows even the slightest threat (that small hit he does) Ren finishes him off just like that. 

Which I really love; I love how petty and cruel you see Ren be here, and you see it in the choreography. It's thoughtful and fairly clear, and it's a great example of using action to further story and character. Adam Driver was a great choice, as it turns out, and that's one of the ways it shows.

Yea Ren turns his back on him and shows no care for his skills. I’m just of the school that lightsabers are something that you must be taught at length before you wield with any skill. We see Luke in Hope at least practicing on the falcon and he’s Luke. Granted it’s  force related training but at least he’s using a saber.

Edited by The Last Storm

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14 minutes ago, The Last Storm said:

Yea Ren turns his back on him and shows no care for his skills. I’m just of the school that lightsabers are something that you must be taught at length before you wield with any skill. We see Luke in Hope at least practicing on the falcon and he’s Luke. Granted it’s  force related training but at least he’s using a saber.

I don't see why; we see lots of people at home wielding sabers like swords and whatnot and not having any real training with it. If Finn was deflecting bolts or doing saber throws that'd be one thing, but he's just fighting with it. And earlier in the movie we saw him fight too, albeit not super well compared to a trained guy. 

I don't know where you get that you need to be trained with a saber in order to pick up the damn thing. As early as ANH we see Luke using it with no  training and just being told 'let go', and in TESB we see Han use it to slice open the Tauntaun. Grievous showed that you don't even need to be a force wielder to use it, and those guard droids showed you can fight force users fairly well without one. I think you're overthinking 'swing a stick with a power switch' as requiring major skills.

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17 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I don't see why; we see lots of people at home wielding sabers like swords and whatnot and not having any real training with it. If Finn was deflecting bolts or doing saber throws that'd be one thing, but he's just fighting with it. And earlier in the movie we saw him fight too, albeit not super well compared to a trained guy. 

I don't know where you get that you need to be trained with a saber in order to pick up the damn thing. As early as ANH we see Luke using it with no  training and just being told 'let go', and in TESB we see Han use it to slice open the Tauntaun. Grievous showed that you don't even need to be a force wielder to use it, and those guard droids showed you can fight force users fairly well without one. I think you're overthinking 'swing a stick with a power switch' as requiring major skills.

Grevious was trained by Dooku. Han doesn’t fight anyone. Even if Finn is force sensitive he’s fighting Ren who is trained and backed by real force power. It’s the force behind the person wielding the saber, that and their training to use the force to make them deadly with a saber, which Finn has zero.

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Just now, The Last Storm said:

Grevious was trained by Dooku. Han doesn’t fight anyone. Even if Finn is force sensitive he’s fighting Ren who is trained and backed by real force power. It’s the force behind the person wielding the saber, that and their training to use the force to make them deadly with a saber, which Finn has zero.

And if Finn was actually deadly with it, that would be a problem. But he gets off a super lucky shot and then gets immediately sliced down. 

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1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

And if Finn was actually deadly with it, that would be a problem. But he gets off a super lucky shot and then gets immediately sliced down. 

I get that. IMO sabers are sacred in the Star Wars Universe and I’d rather see only Jedi/Sith fight with them.

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20 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I still think that TFA's fight was the closest anything has come to using the fight as actual emotional dialog like the OT did. It was great, both the fight with Finn and the fight with Rey. 

I personally loved the look of TLJ's fight and the style it was shot in as well as some of those cool bits. Even if they had to disappear a knife or two.

TRoS didn't grab me at all. I don't know why, but none of the fights were that special to me. The landscape of the ocean was cool, but the actual fight wasn't. 

I really liked how they choreographed the light saber fights in both trilogies.   There were more complicated emotions going on in TLJ, but TRoS did something really neat with theirs.  You could tell what side of the force, what emotions they were experiencing with the fighting style they were using and how it played out.   You had the graceful evasion and elusion of the Jedi and the powerful of the Sith.  Usually,  I think the films used the colors of saberd to illustrate it, but here they couldn't do that, it was a nice touch. 

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22 hours ago, Slurktan said:

Dos RoS completely and utterly nullify the entire back half of Return of the Jedi as being pointless?  Yes.  Seems pretty simple.

That's a rather absolutist reading.

The Deathstar was destroyed. The New Republic flourished, for a time. Anakin Skywalker was redeemed, rejecting the Dark Side of the Force, and saved his son Characters were born in the aftermath who would not have lived if the Emperor had won that day. Luke made his new Jedi temple and attempted to resurrect the Jedi order. And so on, and so on. Nothing has been nullified. 

It's like LotR, with Palpatine. Elendil died to kill Sauron, winning Middle-earth a thousand years of relative peace... until it transpired that Sauron wasn't really dead and had reformed himself and had begun to extend his power once more. Elendil's victory and its effects aren't mitigated because of unforseen eventualities. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's a rather absolutist reading.

The Deathstar was destroyed. The New Republic flourished, for a time. Anakin Skywalker was redeemed, rejecting the Dark Side of the Force, and saved his son Characters were born in the aftermath who would not have lived if the Emperor had won that day. Luke made his new Jedi temple and attempted to resurrect the Jedi order. And so on, and so on. Nothing has been nullified. 

It's like LotR, with Palpatine. Elendil died to kill Sauron, winning Middle-earth a thousand years of relative peace... until it transpired that Sauron wasn't really dead and had reformed himself and had begun to extend his power once more. Elendil's victory and its effects aren't mitigated because of unforseen eventualities. 

 

Yea, but the end of Jedi only gave us at most 30 years of relative peace, while in the Lord of the Rings the characters had a least a 1000 years of relative peace. Those are some vastly big differences in numbers.

 

Also one is just a prologue to a book/movie series and the other is an actual quest we as the viewer went on and got to see Disney and Abrams take a massive shit on.

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Posted (edited)

 

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

 30 years of relative peace, a 1000 years . Those are some vastly big differences in numbers.

From our POV, the galaxy got to rest only about as long as a robust Bantha fart.   We saw them jubilate, then it went right back into a generic rip-off version of their original plight.     It's like the jawas were put in charge of mapping out the future and threw something together with recycled junk parts.    And has anyone noticed that the millennium falcon has historically spent about 70% of its flight time flying around INDOORS?    That's an impressive stat.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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2 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

 

From our POV, the galaxy got to rest only about as long as a robust Bantha fart.   We saw them jubilate, then it went right back into a generic rip-off version of their original plight.     It's like the jawas were put in charge of mapping out the future and threw something together with recycled junk parts.    And has anyone noticed that the millennium falcon has historically spent about 70% of its flight time flying around INDOORS?    That's an impressive stat.

It feels weird as hell watching the end of Jedi, where everyone is happy and then start up episode VII and everything is back to being complete shit again.

If you're going to start another war, that's fine, but at least show us how it happened, don't just put it in an opening title crawl.

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

It feels weird as hell watching the end of Jedi, where everyone is happy and then start up episode VII and everything is back to being complete shit again.

If you're going to start another war, that's fine, but at least show us how it happened, don't just put it in an opening title crawl.

If you were to watch them all in order (which I haven’t) that would be the big question. It goes from dancing and force ghosts to mad max.

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8 hours ago, Ran said:

That's a rather absolutist reading.

The Deathstar was destroyed. The New Republic flourished, for a time. Anakin Skywalker was redeemed, rejecting the Dark Side of the Force, and saved his son Characters were born in the aftermath who would not have lived if the Emperor had won that day. Luke made his new Jedi temple and attempted to resurrect the Jedi order. And so on, and so on. Nothing has been nullified. 

It's like LotR, with Palpatine. Elendil died to kill Sauron, winning Middle-earth a thousand years of relative peace... until it transpired that Sauron wasn't really dead and had reformed himself and had begun to extend his power once more. Elendil's victory and its effects aren't mitigated because of unforseen eventualities. 

 

I agree. Just because everyone doesn’t live “happily ever after” doesn’t nullify their actions. In fact i think part of the message in TLJ captures that, that even the little victories are significant and should be celebrated as inspiring hope

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

In fact i think part of the message in TLJ captures that, that even the little victories are significant and should be celebrated as inspiring hope

That's kinda the premise of Rogue One too, right?  Of course, that was "boring" with "no interesting characters."  Going out of universe, been thinking about Dunkirk lately with all these "best of the decade" lists, and it might be my favorite war movie..ever (unless you count Apocalypse Now as a war movie, which I don't).  And all that movie about is simply surviving.

I do think it's fair to say bringing back Palpatine in such a slapdash way did cheapen the accomplishment in ROTJ a bit.  But it cheapened itself much much more.  Really doubt my enjoyment of ROTJ on the next rewatch is going to be any different than the last hundreds of times I've watched it.

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Just rewatched TPM and, strangely enough, I really enjoyed that movie. I actually thought it was really good. No idea why, perhaps watching it again after a couple of years.

Not because even little Ani got more buildup to be a great pilot than Rey in TFA but it was nice to notice that little tidbit.

Going through the other movies in the next days and looking forward to the experience.

On 1/5/2020 at 12:14 AM, Ran said:

It's like LotR, with Palpatine. Elendil died to kill Sauron, winning Middle-earth a thousand years of relative peace... until it transpired that Sauron wasn't really dead and had reformed himself and had begun to extend his power once more. Elendil's victory and its effects aren't mitigated because of unforseen eventualities.

The difference with that is that people at the end of SA had every reason to expect that Sauron the Maia would return from 'death' because he happened to be a Maia whereas nobody in ROTJ thought Palpatine could survive his own death, being a human being rather than some sort of angelic monster.

TROS is a very bad sequel betraying a lack of ideas - as would be a sequel to LotR where Sauron the Maia returned yet again from death despite the fact that LotR established that he would no longer be able to do that because the Ring was destroyed.

And sequels essentially retelling the story of the original rather than being able to add something new are, of course, overall meaningless if we are talking about a movie series which pretend to tell a continuous story rather than repeating the same story over and over again.

On 1/5/2020 at 9:14 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

I agree. Just because everyone doesn’t live “happily ever after” doesn’t nullify their actions. In fact i think part of the message in TLJ captures that, that even the little victories are significant and should be celebrated as inspiring hope

Why anyone does still has any hope left in that shitty world I don't understand. The guys apparently destroyed the Emperor and could then not rebuild a New Republic that worked, being unable to keep a bunch of kids in line who played at being stormtrooper/Sith.

There clearly was a big victory in ROTJ - but said victory wasn't enough to establish anything lasting that the writers of the new movies did care about. It was overall a failure, and the message TROS inadvertently sends is that we can be pretty sure that this new victory was just a meaningless as the last one. If the Emperor can come back once, he can come back twice, and if an actual proper Rebel movement could not build a stable New Republic then those 'people' who won the day in the new movie won't also be able to build a New Republic - meaning that things will likely get even more shitty than the last time when a proper leadership was around in the Skywalker-Solo gang.

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