Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Rippounet

US politics - sometimes political jokes get elected

Recommended Posts

@DMC

Quote

It is a consistent (and recent) result that Americans are more averse to voting for a socialist candidate compared to a Muslim or an atheist candidate.  Does Bernie make up for that due to his name/ID familiarity with the public?  Sure.  But acting like it won't have a pronounced impact on Bernie is, again, either simply naive, willfully ignorant; and regardless it's being completely blind to American electoral politics - up to and including 15 months ago.

Honest question: could the negatives of being an avowed socialist be offset by some local positives (like in Michigan as someone said in the previous thread) ?
In other words, could fighting to get the poor white voters (or at least some of them) in specific states be a workable strategy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

could the negatives of being an avowed socialist be offset by some local positives (like in Michigan as someone said in the previous thread) ?
In other words, could fighting to get the poor white voters (or at least some of them) in specific states be a workable strategy?

I've yet to see any credible evidence that Bernie is going to help recoup the trend of poor/uneducated white voters going increasingly Republican.  Especially considering the seeming stranglehold Trump has on anyone that voted for him last time.  And, to emphasize, these trends preceded Trump - check out the comparison of exit polls from 2012 to 2016 for non-college whites.  Trump won that demo 66 to 29 in 2016.  Could Bernie do better than Hillary there?  Sure.  Could he do better than Obama in 2012?  I highly doubt it.  Moreover, there's no reason to think he could do better with this group than Biden, Warren et al. because again - this is the same demo that is most likely to view socialism as a threat.  Bernie's class-based message may play great in Europe.  But that's not how our two-party system has ever been constructed, including now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, DMC said:

I've yet to see any credible evidence that Bernie is going to help recoup the trend of poor/uneducated white voters going increasingly Republican.  Especially considering the seeming stranglehold Trump has on anyone that voted for him last time.  And, to emphasize, these trends preceded Trump - check out the comparison of exit polls from 2012 to 2016 for non-college whites.  Trump won that demo 66 to 29 in 2016.  Could Bernie do better than Hillary there?  Sure.  Could he do better than Obama in 2012?  I highly doubt it.  Moreover, there's no reason to think he could do better with this group than Biden, Warren et al. because again - this is the same demo that is most likely to view socialism as a threat.  Bernie's class-based message may play great in Europe.  But that's not how our two-party system has ever been constructed, including now.

I really enjoy all the anti-socialists demanding the government protect their medicare and farm subsidies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, argonak said:

I really enjoy all the anti-socialists demanding the government protect their medicare and farm subsidies.

Are you suggesting that pointing out American hypocrisy regarding socialism will do anything other than piss off the people you are trying to convince to vote for your candidate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, argonak said:

I really enjoy all the anti-socialists demanding the government protect their medicare and farm subsidies.

8256957981_cdd6365984_z.jpg

Edited by DMC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, argonak said:

I really enjoy all the anti-socialists demanding the government protect their medicare and farm subsidies.

I think the larger point is that when it comes down to it, Americans like "socialism", or things that are socialisticyish, since there is a bunch of disagreement and confusion about what socialism even is in the american public's mind. It's just that they hate the word or calling something socialist, even though it really is.

Edited by OldGimletEye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I think the larger point is that when it comes down to it, Americans like "socialism", or things that are socialisticyish, since there is a bunch of disagreement and confusion about what socialism even is in the american public's mind. It's just that they hate the word or calling something socialist, even though it really is.

Yup.  My question is whether an attempt to educate the American public on what is and is not socialism will come off to the voters as anything other than paternalistic?  Everyone pointing out the socialist examples of Government intervention in the US economy is correct. 

But does that matter?  I'm afraid its simply going to push those who fear "socialism" further into their echo chambers.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Are you suggesting that pointing out American hypocrisy regarding socialism will do anything other than piss off the people you are trying to convince to vote for your candidate?

No, I've given up on convincing them of anything.  They're willfully ignorant.  Doesn't seem like there's any point anymore.  if you try to explain reality to them they get mad, so whatever.  Today I listened to some guy on the radio defending trump while whining about how trump had hurt his soybean market, and then complaining that trump wasn't forcing the oil companies to buy his corn anymore.

They're a bunch of whiny welfare crybabies who are mad when they don't get all their farm subsidy welfare.  And they hate how other people get welfare.   The old folks get mad that anyone other than them might get help with their healthcare, while screeching about their drug expenses.  

I frankly don't have much hope for the future of this country anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 My question is whether an attempt to educate the American public on what is and is not socialism will come off to the voters as anything other than paternalistic?  

I'd avoid the question whether something is or is not socialist, other than maybe to highlight the fact the Republican Party and Conservatives generally can't make their minds up what it is. It's kind of hard to talk about the pros/cons of something when I don't know what the hell is being talked about.

Instead, I'd focus more on market problems and how government policies can help, without being liberal condescending guy, as much as possible, which sometimes some liberals are prone to do.

Edited by OldGimletEye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, argonak said:

No, I've given up on convincing them of anything.  They're willfully ignorant.  Doesn't seem like there's any point anymore.  if you try to explain reality to them they get mad, so whatever.  Today I listened to some guy on the radio defending trump while whining about how trump had hurt his soybean market, and then complaining that trump wasn't forcing the oil companies to buy his corn anymore.

They're a bunch of whiny welfare crybabies who are mad when they don't get all their farm subsidy welfare.  And they hate how other people get welfare.   The old folks get mad that anyone other than them might get help with their healthcare, while screeching about their drug expenses.  

I frankly don't have much hope for the future of this country anymore.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The DNC had 4 years to fix their primary system; all this caterwauling about a weak candidate having a good chance of getting the nomination is their own fault. They also seem to be talking themselves our of the 2020 elections rather than seeing which way the cards fall, then fighting to make it happen.

Biden is still the favorite to win, but all this concern about Sanders possibly getting the nomination shows how weak he is as well.

Edited by IheartIheartTesla

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

The DNC had 4 years to fix their primary system; all this caterwauling about a weak candidate having a good chance of getting the nomination is their own fault.

The DNC had nothing to do with a host of interesting and "fresh" candidates gaining little-to-no traction in the primary process - including Harris, Booker, Castro, Gillibrand, Bullock, Beto, even Jay Inslee.  That's on the coalition of voters that compose the Democratic primary electorate, fundraisers, and activists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, argonak said:

No, I've given up on convincing them of anything.  They're willfully ignorant.  Doesn't seem like there's any point anymore.  if you try to explain reality to them they get mad, so whatever.  Today I listened to some guy on the radio defending trump while whining about how trump had hurt his soybean market, and then complaining that trump wasn't forcing the oil companies to buy his corn anymore.

They're a bunch of whiny welfare crybabies who are mad when they don't get all their farm subsidy welfare.  And they hate how other people get welfare.   The old folks get mad that anyone other than them might get help with their healthcare, while screeching about their drug expenses.  

I frankly don't have much hope for the future of this country anymore.

Yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Biden is still the favorite to win, but all this concern about Sanders possibly getting the nomination shows how weak he is as well.

Democrats are more or less unanimous that Biden is an unimpressive and past his prime candidate.  There are some that still like him, and will still vote for him, but very few are really fired up about Biden (even fewer than Clinton in 2016).  That is extremely worrisome, because the 2020 election is going to be a hard, hard fight, and if the candidate isn't someone who inspires people, then the slog of this campaign is going to be brutal. 

In contrast, Democrats are very split on Sanders.  He clearly has a contingent of very enthusiastic supporters, who will no doubt come out for him in the campaign season.  But there is also a large contingent of the party that is extremely concerned that Sanders lefty positions and socialist history will make him unpalatable to independents and conservative democrats, potentially making him a far worse candidate than Biden. 

And for some reason, Democrats are coalescing around these two septuagenarians instead of just rallying around one of the many better candidates who are running or who have already dropped out.  Because Democrats...like name recognition?  I dunno, it seems very, very stupid to me, and I'm definitely bitter about it. 

Edited by Maithanet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obama had a personal connection with Iowa voters that none of the other candidates are able to recapture. Like I've said numerous times before, Iowa demographics represent Republican demographics more than Democratic demographics. Thats part of the reason none of the fresh new candidates caught fire.

In 2008 MI and FL were penalized for moving their primary calendar up. I'm just ranting about this terrible calendar more than anything. Thinking about changing it in 2017 might have done us all a favor. 

Edited by IheartIheartTesla

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, argonak said:

I really enjoy all the anti-socialists demanding the government protect their medicare and farm subsidies.

Oh come off it.

That's not socialsim, that's capitalism protecting it's own!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@mormont

I was thinking about what you asked in the last thread about what's different for Sanders now than in 2016. I think the idea is that if Sanders were to win the primary, then Democrats fall in line behind him, and what he brings is pulling in independent voters who aren't registered democrats so they can't vote in the primaries (though they can vote in the general election). Especially the upper mid-west states that Obama won, but then went to Trump.

I think the bigger issue, and someone brought it up already, is assuming all Democrats will fall behind Bernie. The vitriol in this divide on the left runs pretty, pretty deep.

Edit: P.S., I'm not blaming one side or the other for the vitriol. It's just a very real problem.

Edited by Simon Steele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@butterbumps!

In the last thread, you said, "Will anything other than a clear Sander’s primary victory be deemed by supporters as not being “DNC fuckery”?    As in, will any Sanders loss be understood as anything other than some kind of rigging against Saint Sanders?" This was in response to me talking about the growing vocal movement in socialist circles of not supporting the nominee if they sense DNC fuckery. I agree with you that if Bernie doesn't win, there is a likely chance many supporters will see this as institutional meddling.

I do think, however, by the time the general rolls around, bitterness might wear off and people will go ahead and vote for the Dem nominee. I mean, right now we're seeing Dems fight each other. When we begin to focus on Trump and babies in cages, his lies, his openly brazen love of just breaking the law and hurting people? I truly hope people don't stay home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To emphasize how weak Biden's position is. consider South Carolina, supposedly his firewall to stop others. Even there, his position has eroded. A recent poll found him at 30, Sanders 25 and Steyer at 18. One poll for sure, but others had found him 20 points ahead in the past. If he doesnt win SC I suggest its the end of the campaign for him.

The irony then would be 2 billionaires against Sanders in the remaining primaries (ok, Klobuchar and Warren too, but they'll need wins soon).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...