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Peach King

Was Jaime molesting Cersei?

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4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

think she did want to have sex - but not right then. Not in the Sept next to Joffrey's dead body where the guards could have found them.

I think that's probably how it started.

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her...

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The Septons.."

Of note, she is reciprocating his advances & her initial refusal is not no or not right now, but not here. So even initially she is willing to have sex, but wants to go somewhere else to do it. 

"The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. 

Her contesting is described as weak, feeble, she is murmuring not yelling or even talking. She isn't a weak & feeble woman, she is only protesting weakly because she wants to have sex. Her issue is with getting caught, not with doing it. 

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly. quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, my sweet brother, yes like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. 

This doesn't read to me like a woman forced, a woman with no other choice, a woman who doesn't want to do this, or a woman not aroused. 

Also, I think it's worthy of noting that their conversation directly prior to having sex is of Cersei wanting Jaime to kill Tyrion for killing Joff. Was this her payment for him to do as he was bid? 

Directly afterwards, she seems to have no issue being firm with him. 

"...you should go to father."

"I crossed a thousand leagues to come to you, and lost the best part of me along the way. Don't tell me to leave."

"Leave me," she repeated, turning away.

No hint of weak & feeble or murmuring now. 

23 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Jaime is the one who wants to play risky games, not Cersei  - Cersei says something to the effect of "you just had to have me" while talking about them having sex in the tower in Winterfell. He also was the one to initiate sex while Robert was sleeping next to them and blithely stated that he would just kill Robert if he woke up.

Yeah, Cersei certainly protests the risky games but not wholeheartedly. She gives in after feeble protests. I think she uses this "you just had to have me" more to blame him for the events that followed rather than because she didn't want to have sex with him. She must've followed him to the broken tower, knowing full well what his intentions were. 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Cersei seems to think that controlling men through sex makes her powerful - but is that really what's going on? Robert assaulted her. She did manipulate Jaime, but Jaime also assaulted her. Even one of the Kettleblacks she was manipulating groped her against her will.

I agree she seems to think controlling men through sex makes her powerful & that is not the full truth of it, just what she believes. Robert assaulted her, but I don't think Jaime did. 

Which Kettleblack are we talking about? I don't remember that. I remember her trying to seduce one & giving promises of sex later, after he does her bidding. I think in that position it wouldn't be unreasonable for the man to think groping her is not against her will. I don't remember the passage though so there may be more to it that does indicate it was against her will. 

 

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17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think that's probably how it started.

She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her...

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. "No," she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, "not here. The Septons.."

Of note, she is reciprocating his advances & her initial refusal is not no or not right now, but not here. So even initially she is willing to have sex, but wants to go somewhere else to do it. 

"The Others can take the septons." He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother's altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. 

Her contesting is described as weak, feeble, she is murmuring not yelling or even talking. She isn't a weak & feeble woman, she is only protesting weakly because she wants to have sex. Her issue is with getting caught, not with doing it. 

"Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly. quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, "my brother, my sweet brother, yes like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. 

This doesn't read to me like a woman forced, a woman with no other choice, a woman who doesn't want to do this, or a woman not aroused. 

"Not here" is still no.

And I think we need to do away with the notion of Cersei's personality or her arousal mattering here. Her being strong willed and confident matters nothing with regards to her being assaulted, and that actually sends a really gross message that only weak women are the ones who allow themselves to get raped. That is, I've seen, how people excuse Ygritte and Jon - Jon was into it! Jon was physically stronger! He could have fought Ygritte off! He had Ghost!

Quote

He wanted to rip her gown off and turn her blows to kisses. He'd done it before, back when he had two good hands.

-A Feast For Crows, Jaime III

Jaime ignores Cersei even when she's physically, violently resisting. And Cersei is at a clear disadvantage here - she's tried to stop Jaime, she's said no to him like three times before, and she can't scream or call for help because that would just put her in danger as well. Couldn't she be murmuring because she didn't want to attract attention? Jaime is also an unreliable narrator here - he says he doesn't hear her, but also notes down everything she says, which means he was hearing her.

She agreed, sure, but because she wanted him to hurry up and end it quickly. And - this is important - Jaime does not know Cersei's state of mind. This was, if I remember, their first time after Jaime's long absence. Jaime does not know how their relationship stands. Cersei might have a new lover. Cersei might not want him anymore, which is actually true, Jaime's beard and the loss of his hand turned Cersei off.

Cersei was mad about it even later:

Quote

“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight. “With Father in the castle . . . Jaime, we must be careful.”

They're not a couple who establishes boundaries and who are just acting out their kinks together. There's no safe words, no nothing - if yes means no, how is Jaime supposed to know when no actually means no? How many times did no actually mean no? Cersei was into it later on - but only after Jaime wore her down and ignored her repeated refusals.

This actually goes against my words from earlier on, which, I know these things are common in erotica yada yada yada but that doesn't absolve them of being problematic.

I don't read it as totally consensual, you might have a different opinion.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Also, I think it's worthy of noting that their conversation directly prior to having sex is of Cersei wanting Jaime to kill Tyrion for killing Joff. Was this her payment for him to do as he was bid? 

Directly afterwards, she seems to have no issue being firm with him. 

"...you should go to father."

"I crossed a thousand leagues to come to you, and lost the best part of me along the way. Don't tell me to leave."

"Leave me," she repeated, turning away.

No hint of weak & feeble or murmuring now. 

That's a good point, but Cersei repeatedly said she didn't want to do it then and now. George himself said the time and place was wildly inappropriate and Cersei was fearful of discovery.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, Cersei certainly protests the risky games but not wholeheartedly. She gives in after feeble protests. I think she uses this "you just had to have me" more to blame him for the events that followed rather than because she didn't want to have sex with him. She must've followed him to the broken tower, knowing full well what his intentions were. 

That doesn't detract that Cersei is not the one who wants to have risky sex - it's Jaime. She certainly did not want to have sex next to a sleeping Robert or in the sept. I'm sure Cersei would have second thoughts since she loves her children and her lives would be at stake if she was ever found out.

17 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree she seems to think controlling men through sex makes her powerful & that is not the full truth of it, just what she believes. Robert assaulted her, but I don't think Jaime did. 

Which Kettleblack are we talking about? I don't remember that. I remember her trying to seduce one & giving promises of sex later, after he does her bidding. I think in that position it wouldn't be unreasonable for the man to think groping her is not against her will. I don't remember the passage though so there may be more to it that does indicate it was against her will. 

I actually misremembered (or I can't find the passage?) - it was Osney Kettleblack, he stroked her hair and Cersei wanted to slap him. He also didn't do the task of seducing Margaery which Cersei gave him and sold her out to the High Septon. So in the end - I think it does fit into the theme of Cersei getting taken advantage of by men she thought she was controlling through sex. Which is my private interpretation of how things go.

Edited by Peach King

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3 hours ago, Peach King said:

"Not here" is still no.

Indeed. I'm just pointing out that her refusal wasn't to sex in general but to sex there. 

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

And I think we need to do away with the notion of Cersei's personality or her arousal mattering here. Her being strong willed and confident matters nothing with regards to her being assaulted, and that actually sends a really gross message that only weak women are the ones who allow themselves to get raped. That is, I've seen, how people excuse Ygritte and Jon - Jon was into it! Jon was physically stronger! He could have fought Ygritte off! He had Ghost!

I would like to be very clear here: I'm not implying or thinking or saying only weak women allow themselves to get raped. My point about Cerseis personality is that George is using the words "weak" & "feeble" to describe her protests after describing Cersei to us as the complete opposite. This is an indication to me that the protest wasn't genuine.

There are any number of reasons a woman may protest weakly, or not at all, during a sexual encounter, that have absolutely nothing to do with who they are or what they are consenting to. In Cerseis case, though, we have the ability to know her character, know the surrounding circumstances, later have her inner thoughts, and to know what the author intended. Therefore, we are able to make a guess at why her protests are weak & feeble - that's all I've done here. 

As to the arousal, again, it doesn't always make a difference but in this particular case it's just a building block of sorts (IMO) as further evidence that this was consensual. 

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

Jaime ignores Cersei even when she's physically, violently resisting. And Cersei is at a clear disadvantage here - she's tried to stop Jaime, she's said no to him like three times before, and she can't scream or call for help because that would just put her in danger as well. Couldn't she be murmuring because she didn't want to attract attention? Jaime is also an unreliable narrator here - he says he doesn't hear her, but also notes down everything she says, which means he was hearing her.

I had forgotten that passage & it's definitely skeptical. 

One refusal is enough for someone who is truly not consenting but I think we have to take into consideration the entire narrative here. 

She certainly could be murmuring because she doesn't want to draw attention. My take on it, though, is that if that were the case, George would have used the word 'whispering' or 'hissing'. Murmuring, couples with the rest of the narrative, leads me to the impression of her being caught up in the moment & only half-heartedly talking about the risks. I've been wrong before though. 

I don't think he is an unrealiable narrator here. I think he is saying he hears her words but he is not heeding them, he doesn't care about the risks because he is too overcome with passion or wanting or what have you. 

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

They're not a couple who establishes boundaries and who are just acting out their kinks together. There's no safe words, no nothing - if yes means no, how is Jaime supposed to know when no actually means no? How many times did no actually mean no? Cersei was into it later on - but only after Jaime wore her down and ignored her repeated refusals.

It's definitely a problematic relationship on many levels & I agree with the premise. I think Jaime would know when no means no by Cerseis actions. For instance if she is saying no & not opening her mouth for his tongue, not moaning, not helping "guide" him. 

 

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

I don't read it as totally consensual, you might have a different opinion.

I could agree that there are some issues here & that reading the text alone doesn't give a clear cut answer to the question "Is this rape?" What pushes me to believing it isn't is knowing that George did not intend to write a rape scene. 

In real life, if a person asked me to judge this scenario, it would be completely different to me & I could possibly come to a completely different outcome. We wouldn't have inner thoughts of either person, at any time, we wouldn't have the full dynamic of their relationship or their characters, we wouldn't have the full scene in the manner we do now & there wouldn't be a "story teller" telling us this isn't meant to be rape. 

Because we do have all those things, I think George intended to write a scene where the passion between two people is such that they are overcome with it, against Cerseis better judgment & fears, and that she becomes victim to her own wanting, like she cannot help herself. I have read in several books, about a 'taboo' love - not usually siblings, but other taboos for whatever reason, where the woman or man or both try to fight their inner urge to love & be with this person because they know the consequences but are eventually overcome with it & end up being together. Whether or not he wrote that clearly is definitely up for debate - but going into it knowing his intention this is how I read it.

4 hours ago, Peach King said:

That's a good point, but Cersei repeatedly said she didn't want to do it then and now. George himself said the time and place was wildly inappropriate and Cersei was fearful of discovery.

Yeah it definitely wasn't the time or place & I agree she would be fearful of discovery. I do wonder why, at no point, does Jaime tell Cersei that he posted one of the Kettleblacks at the door with a command to not allow anyone in - that may have done something to alleviate her fear. 

4 hours ago, Peach King said:

That doesn't detract that Cersei is not the one who wants to have risky sex - it's Jaime. She certainly did not want to have sex next to a sleeping Robert or in the sept. I'm sure Cersei would have second thoughts since she loves her children and her lives would be at stake if she was ever found out.

I mean that's the crux of the matter isn't it? She does comply in having risky sex, in having sex next to a sleeping Robert, & in the sept. So what it all boils down to is if she wanted to or if she felt she had to. I do understand why a normal person, even a not-so-normal person like Cersei, would not want to have sex next to her sons corpse but on the other hand I just don't feel as if she felt she had to either. 

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4 hours ago, Peach King said:

I actually misremembered (or I can't find the passage?) - it was Osney Kettleblack, he stroked her hair and Cersei wanted to slap him. He also didn't do the task of seducing Margaery which Cersei gave him and sold her out to the High Septon. So in the end - I think it does fit into the theme of Cersei getting taken advantage of by men she thought she was controlling through sex. Which is my private interpretation of how things go.

Sorry missed this paragraph. Yeah I agree with your theme of things irt her getting taken advantage of by men she thought she was controlling through sex. Doesn't she set herself up for some of this though? Specifically with Osney - she is trying to seduce him, she is promising him sex in return for a "favor". She wants to slap him when he strokes her hair because she doesn't want him sexually or otherwise but can it be said it was 'against her will' or consent when she has given every outward sign that she does want him sexually? 

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6 hours ago, Peach King said:

She agreed, sure, but because she wanted him to hurry up and end it quickly. And - this is important - Jaime does not know Cersei's state of mind. This was, if I remember, their first time after Jaime's long absence. Jaime does not know how their relationship stands. Cersei might have a new lover. Cersei might not want him anymore, which is actually true, Jaime's beard and the loss of his hand turned Cersei off.

Sorry I missed this paragraph too somehow. I don't think she wanted him to hurry up to end it quickly. She wanted him to hurry up & get it started. 

"do it now... do me now, Jaime Jaime Jaime." "Yes... yes like that.... I have you" 

I believe it had been 6 months or a year maybe. I don't know I guess I'm putting myself in this scenario (pretending it's my husband, not my brother :lol:) If my husband had been gone for 6 months, or a year, I wouldn't think he felt as if he didn't know where our relationship stood or if I might have another lover. I would think he would believe I missed him as much as he missed me. If he did have any question about where we stood, I would think that would be answered when I kissed him first, trembled when he put his arms around me, & opened my mouth for his tongue. 

Cersei & Jaime repeatedly talk of being "one", belonging to each other, much like husband & wife. Jaime has only ever been with Cersei & iirc believes Cersei has only ever wanted him or willingly slept with him. He certainly knows she has had to consummate with her husband but not that she wanted to. 

Jaimes beard & loss of his hand do seem to turn Cersei off eventually but not in this passage. 

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18 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry I missed this paragraph too somehow. I don't think she wanted him to hurry up to end it quickly. She wanted him to hurry up & get it started. 

"do it now... do me now, Jaime Jaime Jaime." "Yes... yes like that.... I have you" 

I believe it had been 6 months or a year maybe. I don't know I guess I'm putting myself in this scenario (pretending it's my husband, not my brother :lol:)

And your dead son's corpse? And soldiers, who if discovered what you were doing could mean the end of your life and your remaining children's lives?

The scenario is one of the reasons why Cersei's protests seem genuine and not some kind of foreplay.

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15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And your dead son's corpse? And soldiers, who if discovered what you were doing could mean the end of your life and your remaining children's lives?

The scenario is one of the reasons why Cersei's protests seem genuine and not some kind of foreplay.

Yeah, I agree her sons corpse is or should be a damper on the situation. I was more just speaking to PK's point that Jaime hadn't seen her in a while & didn't know where their relationship stood. 

To be fair, I am conflicted about that. Her protests don't seem genuine to me but there is reason for them to be. I would be more inclined to believe I was reading it wrong had George not said it wasn't rape. 

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:36 PM, Peach King said:

Since two other ultra sensitive topics are going on, I thought it might be the best time to bring up this passage I noticed on a reread...

What do you think, folks?

Seduced. Forced at times.  Yes, I would guess there were occasions when he took her when he wasn't wanted.  Molest is not the right word.  He took advantage because of his physical power over her.  

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On 2/27/2020 at 9:54 AM, Peach King said:

You make a good point Bernie Mac. In the sept scene Cersei couldn't have forced Jaime off of her, since calling the guards could mean her death as well.

That's not actually true. Jaime at that point was missing a hand and had trouble to take a piss with his left. He was physically incapable to rape her at that point and if she properly resisted, he wouldn't be able to take her clothes off and lift her on the altar. I mean, Cersei actually had to actually take his dick and put it into her with her hands. So when Jaime mentions her 'feeble fists', they must have been indeed feeble and not proper punches that are just feeble for Jaime, or else Jaime wouldn't have been able to do anything.  So it seems like that from Cersei's perspective it's initially her really wanting to have sex with Jaime but having second thoughts about the place, but then basically saying 'fuck it' and giving in to the desire (which GRRM eventually confirmed himself). Cersei never properly indicated to Jaime that she is adamant about not having sex there. And a simple  feeble 'no' is seemingly not a proper indication in their relationship as is showcased in their sex scene that Bran overheard when she was moaning 'stop it' when they had sex. And it's pretty clear that her 'stop it' didn't actually mean 'stop it' in that scene. It's just something Cersei likes to moan which both Jaime and Cersei understand as they are lovers for a looong time.

Also, after the sept scene Jaime began to stop seeking sex with her and started to deny any of her advances just because he started to suspect that Cersei only sleeps with him to make him do something, like here, when Cersei came to him during his vigil next to Tywin's corpse:

"I remember. It was Eel Alley." She wants something of me. "Why are you here, at this hour? What would you have of me?" His last word echoed up and down the sept, mememememememememememe, fading to a whisper. For a moment he dared to hope that all she wanted was the comfort of his arms.

Cersei came to him to specifically try to seduce him, hence her clothes of a tavern peasant, and Jaime does indeed want to embrace her but only if Cersei just wants to be with him and that's it. But then Cersei also asks Jaime to be her Hand and Jaime categorically refuses. He does want to sleep with her but not like that. Jaime is a huge romantic and sex for him is an expression of love. That's why he doesn't cheat on her even if he might be very horny and far away, that's why after the Sept sex he stopped sleeping with her after he started to suspect that she might have some other motives to do it than just wanting to be with him. He is simply not a person who would force himself on a woman if he understood that she does not actually want him. 

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Jaime's scenes with Cersei can seem like rape, but I think it's worth taking into account her history with Robert. He complains to Ned that she guards her vagina as if it contained all the gold of Casterly Rock, and she affirms that she managed to avoid getting pregnant whenever he'd stumble into bed. Granted, Robert was drunk at such times, but it is an indication that she can exercise some agency when she wants to avoid intercourse.

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:36 PM, Peach King said:

Since two other ultra sensitive topics are going on, I thought it might be the best time to bring up this passage I noticed on a reread...

What do you think, folks?

The concept of sexual molestation did not exist over there.  They were having sex.  That is how the denizens of westeros would see it.  

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13 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Jaime's scenes with Cersei can seem like rape, but I think it's worth taking into account her history with Robert. He complains to Ned that she guards her vagina as if it contained all the gold of Casterly Rock, and she affirms that she managed to avoid getting pregnant whenever he'd stumble into bed. Granted, Robert was drunk at such times, but it is an indication that she can exercise some agency when she wants to avoid intercourse.

Robert would be raping Cersei in those scenes even if Cersei gave him a blowjob or they were doing other stuff - the crucial thing is that she didn't want to have sex with him at all but was forced to pleasure him in other ways to prevent him from forcing her to have sex with him in a manner she really didn't want.

Overall, when you read FaB we actually get a pretty good concept of what 'rape' as a crime is in Westeros - it is when a married woman is either forced by force or by non-violent threats/lordly or royal authority into a sexual act/relationship. That is how Queen Alysanne and the Small Council view rape when they discuss the First Night. The average lord claiming his right of the First Night didn't have to physically force the woman he was raping into a sexual act, nor did he first have to beat up or kill her husband and protector.

Marital rape isn't a thing in the Seven Kingdoms, of course, but if Robert and Cersei weren't married his actions would be rape both in the Seven Kingdoms and most enlightened real world countries - and if Jaime ever did things like that he would be a rapist, too, of course, since he and Cersei never married.

On 2/27/2020 at 6:07 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, Cersei certainly protests the risky games but not wholeheartedly. She gives in after feeble protests. I think she uses this "you just had to have me" more to blame him for the events that followed rather than because she didn't want to have sex with him. She must've followed him to the broken tower, knowing full well what his intentions were. 

There is no indication that Cersei/Jaime went to the tower to have sex or that Cersei knew they would have sex there after they were there. Could be they just went there to discuss politics and stuff - which they also did.

Cersei also uses sex to get Jaime to do what she wants, but there is no indication that this is the only kind of sex Cersei and Jaime ever had. Cersei would not think of Jaime as a man who takes the woman he wants if they had only had sex whenever Cersei wanted and in circumstances controlled by Cersei.

In fact, we can be pretty sure that it was Jaime's decision to make Robert's children his children. He would have to be the guy to father them and he was the guy who helped Cersei to abort Robert's only child. Cersei is smart enough to see that having three golden-haired children by Robert might be a little too much ... it is Jaime who might snap at the prospect of his beloved sister carrying the children of another man. He already killed one king, chances were not bad that he would also kill Robert.

Not to mention all the sex they had back when they were pre-teens and teens.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:05 PM, Bernie Mac said:

And your dead son's corpse? And soldiers, who if discovered what you were doing could mean the end of your life and your remaining children's lives?

The scenario is one of the reasons why Cersei's protests seem genuine and not some kind of foreplay.

Cersei definitely loves Jaime and she wants to have sex with him ... but she doesn't want to have it then and there until Jaime's magical masculinity arouses her sooo much that she has to give in (sort of like Dany cannot resist Drogo's magical fingers caressing her vulva).

But by our standards it would be still rape insofar as Cersei is coerced into giving consent and overwhelmed outside and inside sexual forces she cannot control.

Those are both very problematic scenes for those reasons. They effectively sent the message that it is okay to overpower/assault a woman if the result of the assault is that she gets aroused and wants to have sex at that point - it is the same kind of message the old Bond movies with Sean Connery sent.

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17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that Cersei/Jaime went to the tower to have sex or that Cersei knew they would have sex there after they were there. Could be they just went there to discuss politics and stuff - which they also did

The indication is that's what they were doing. That's what they did. Granted, though, Cersei may have thought they were going to the tower for other reasons but I doubt it. If they only wanted to discuss politics they could have found a place at WF to do so. Ned & Robert & others were hunting so the castle wasn't densely populated. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei also uses sex to get Jaime to do what she wants, but there is no indication that this is the only kind of sex Cersei and Jaime ever had. Cersei would not think of Jaime as a man who takes the woman he wants if they had only had sex whenever Cersei wanted and in circumstances controlled by Cersei

No, I don't think it's the only kind of sex they have or that the circumstances are always controlled by Cersei. 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, we can be pretty sure that it was Jaime's decision to make Robert's children his children. He would have to be the guy to father them and he was the guy who helped Cersei to abort Robert's only child. Cersei is smart enough to see that having three golden-haired children by Robert might be a little too much ... it is Jaime who might snap at the prospect of his beloved sister carrying the children of another man. He already killed one king, chances were not bad that he would also kill Robert

I don't think so. Cersei expresses her distaste in having sex with Robert & having his children as well so it was likely a decision they both were in line with. 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei definitely loves Jaime and she wants to have sex with him ... but she doesn't want to have it then and there until Jaime's magical masculinity arouses her sooo much that she has to give in (sort of like Dany cannot resist Drogo's magical fingers caressing her vulva).

Right, this is how I read it. 

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But by our standards it would be still rape insofar as Cersei is coerced into giving consent and overwhelmed outside and inside sexual forces she cannot control.

I don't know. Being coerced by sexual desire would be a hard rape case to prove right? It isn't a man's fault if she can't control her sexual desire enough to say no. 

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Those are both very problematic scenes for those reasons. They effectively sent the message that it is okay to overpower/assault a woman if the result of the assault is that she gets aroused and wants to have sex at that point - it is the same kind of message the old Bond movies with Sean Connery sent.

They are problematic scenes but I don't think the message is that it's ok to over power or sexually assault someone if they become aroused. This isn't a matter of only being visibly aroused; an erection, it's a matter of her behaving aroused as well. She is behaving as if she wants it & likes it, albeit after saying she didn't want to do it there. 

A rape victim, by definition, doesn't want to have sex with this person & while they cannot always control the physical manifestations of arousal they would be able to control the actions used to express that manifestation. A rape victim does not express orally how much they want it or use their hands & mouth to reciprocate unless forced to do so, & Cersei was not forced to act like she liked it, whether or not she felt forced into doing it. 

She does have reason to not want to do it there. Very real reason; they are next to her sons corpse & they could be found. I think that fear is genuine but gives way to her desire soon enough. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2/29/2020 at 3:47 AM, Dofs said:

That's not actually true. Jaime at that point was missing a hand and had trouble to take a piss with his left.

He is still a man, even in his current state, he’s much stronger than Cersi.

On 2/29/2020 at 3:47 AM, Dofs said:

So it seems like that from Cersei's perspective it's initially her really wanting to have sex with Jaime but having second thoughts about the place, but then basically saying 'fuck it' and giving in to the desire (which GRRM eventually confirmed himself).

Jaimie’s conduct in-text doesn’t give much room but to comply.
She could fight, perhaps but risk making far more noise than if she quietly go along with.

On 2/29/2020 at 3:47 AM, Dofs said:

Cersei never properly indicated to Jaime that she is adamant about not having sex there. And a simple  feeble 'no' is seemingly not a proper indication in their relationship as is showcased in their sex scene that Bran overheard when she was moaning 'stop it' when they had sex.

So no never means no if Cersi is telling it to Jamie in terms of sex? 

To your stop it quote it had the adage of keeping Jaime firmly locked in place.

Here Jaimie neither takes verbal, or physical attempts with the idea of refusing him as good enough.

A ‘no’ should not be discarded as not truly meaning ‘no’ before sex initiates at the very least.

No matter the relationship(whether it be strangers, neighbors, friends or Spouses) one shouldn’t be at the point where the other is kicking and screaming as violently as they can before a person who wants to fuck them backs off.

Cersi says no. He ignores her. She gets physical and tries to gently rebuff him. He ignores that.

Cersi doesn’t have to put up a ‘proper’ fight before, her refusals mean something. 

On 2/29/2020 at 3:47 AM, Dofs said:

He does want to sleep with her but not like that. Jaime is a huge romantic and sex for him is an expression of love. 

Meh, more narcissist. Only he is good enough for his cock. Cersi is the next best thing.

It’s’ why I think he gravitates to the disfigured and social outcasts. Brienne, Pan, Illyn Payne, and most notably Tyrion. 
He could play hero with them. 
Feed his ego.

Hell, his grievance with Tyrion killing Joffrey came from the dwarf having the gall to kill the boy knowing he was Jaimie’s son. It was a personal insult to Jaimie. 

On 2/29/2020 at 3:47 AM, Dofs said:

He is simply not a person who would force himself on a woman if he understood that she does not actually want him.

Meh, lots of rapists don’t see themselves as having raped their victim.

Men have screamed the women  they assaulted were sluts who were begging to be raped. 

Men have screamed She’s my wife! Therefore, it’s ok for me to ignore her proclamations of wanting sex, or fuck her unconscious form.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert would be raping Cersei in those scenes even if Cersei gave him a blowjob or they were doing other stuff - the crucial thing is that she didn't want to have sex with him at all but was forced to pleasure him in other ways to prevent him from forcing her to have sex with him in a manner she really didn't want.

The relevance is that if Cersei isn't doing the same things with Jaime, it's an indication that she doesn't regard it as being unwanted in the same way she does with Robert.

Quote

Overall, when you read FaB we actually get a pretty good concept of what 'rape' as a crime is in Westeros - it is when a married woman is either forced by force or by non-violent threats/lordly or royal authority into a sexual act/relationship.

I'm going to be pedantic and point out that unmarried maidens and even Septas can be raped. Long ago the term "rape" meant "abduction", hence Alexander Pope's "The Rape of the Lock" poem. In the myth of the "the rape of the Sabine women", the women were willing to go with the Roman men, it was their own fathers who objected, somewhat akin to Lyanna going off with Rhaegar.

Quote

Marital rape isn't a thing in the Seven Kingdoms, of course, but if Robert and Cersei weren't married his actions would be rape both in the Seven Kingdoms and most enlightened real world countries - and if Jaime ever did things like that he would be a rapist, too, of course, since he and Cersei never married.

Since they've been living together for years and have multiple children, I think in the absence of a marriage ceremony that might be thought of as something like a common-law marriage.

Quote

In fact, we can be pretty sure that it was Jaime's decision to make Robert's children his children. He would have to be the guy to father them and he was the guy who helped Cersei to abort Robert's only child. Cersei is smart enough to see that having three golden-haired children by Robert might be a little too much ... it is Jaime who might snap at the prospect of his beloved sister carrying the children of another man. He already killed one king, chances were not bad that he would also kill Robert.

No, we have Cersei's thoughts on this. She's quite proud of herself for preventing Robert from having any legitimate children. Tyrion also thinks "Cersei would not be Cersei" if she'd had any kids that didn't look like Lannisters. Jaime arranging for an abortion is evidence that he wouldn't kill Robert for knocking up Cersei, because he didn't when that happened.

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

A rape victim, by definition, doesn't want to have sex with this person & while they cannot always control the physical manifestations of arousal they would be able to control the actions used to express that manifestation.

No, a statutory rape victim is raped even if they did want it. And westeros is hardly less paternalistic than our society.

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On 2/25/2020 at 12:36 PM, Peach King said:

Since two other ultra sensitive topics are going on, I thought it might be the best time to bring up this passage I noticed on a reread...

What do you think, folks?

I can't agree with most of the stuff in this thread.

Cersei and Jaime's sexual rendezvouses are always depicted as twisted but nonetheless consensual.

When Cersei means no, she means it. She's shut Jaime down on multiple occasions in the text and he's always known the difference. If he knows, then so does the reader.

As for the text...

On 2/25/2020 at 12:36 PM, Peach King said:

Outside a cold wind was rising. They stayed up late into the morning, drinking Arbor gold and telling one another tales. Taena got quite drunk and Cersei pried the name of her secret lover from her. He was a Myrish sea captain, half a pirate, with black hair to the shoulders and a scar that ran across his face from chin to ear. "A hundred times I told him no, and he said yes," the other woman told her, "until finally I was saying yes as well. He was not the sort of man to be denied."

"I know the sort," the queen said with a wry smile.

"Has Your Grace ever known a man like that, I wonder?"

"Robert," she lied, thinking of Jaime.

(A Feast of Crows, Cersei IV)

Taena is talking (fondly need I add) about her secret lover not about the man who raped her. Cersei relates because of her relationship to Jaime.

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5 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, a statutory rape victim is raped even if they did want it. And westeros is hardly less paternalistic than our society

This isn't a statutory rape situation. 

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6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, a statutory rape victim is raped even if they did want it. And westeros is hardly less paternalistic than our society.

No. Statutory rape has to do w/ age of consent, which may vary from country to country.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/sex-crimes/statutory-rape-charges-punishment-defense

Statutory Rape Laws and Charges

A person who has sex with someone under the "age of consent" can face a variety of criminal charges depending on the state.

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On 2/28/2020 at 2:10 AM, Peach King said:

That is, I've seen, how people excuse Ygritte and Jon - Jon was into it! Jon was physically stronger! He could have fought Ygritte off! He had Ghost!

And did you see how he butchered the men around Ygritte? 
And how pranced around in that black cloak?

The slut was asking after it.

Kidding of course.

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. Statutory rape has to do w/ age of consent, which may vary from country to country.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/sex-crimes/statutory-rape-charges-punishment-defense

Statutory Rape Laws and Charges

A person who has sex with someone under the "age of consent" can face a variety of criminal charges depending on the state.

Yeah, not if the victim desired to have sex with their molester.

Say there’s a thirteen year old who has a crush on a thirty year old man.

The crush is harmless in it of itself.

But if the man in question actually does anything sexual with the child it’s still sexual-abuse. 
The child could not consent to what happened to her.

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6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah, not if the victim desired to have sex with their molester.

Say there’s a thirteen year old who has a crush on a thirty year old man.

The crush is harmless in it of itself.

But if the man in question actually does anything sexual with the child it’s still sexual-abuse. 
The child could not consent to what happened to her.

I’ve no idea what you’re on about here. 

 

ETA: and the bold is incorrect. That’s actually what statutory rape is; if a 13yr old wants to/ has sex w an adult, it’s statutory rape because a 13 yr old hasn’t reached age of consent. 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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